What we learned [Dawnshard]

[+Child of Hodor]

29 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Dalinar immediately came to my mind too. My current working theory is that Unity is a type of Dawnshard that Dalinar seems to be close to accessing or already, subconsciously, possesses.

@teknopathetic So maybe it was originally held by Ishar (who used either that or the Change Dawnshard to set up the Knights Radiant and bind them to the Oaths), then Nohadon, then at some point Melishi, and - if my theory is correct - now Dalinar?

Yep, we have the Ch. 36 WoK epigraph mentioning the Dawnshard known to bind all creatures voidish or mortal. Unite, Bind, Connect it's a word like that. I agree Dalinar must be tied into a Dawnshard in some way, but not actually one in the straightforward sense. Much like he is kind of Honor enough to briefly form the perpendicularity, but he isn't actually a Shard vessel fulltime. 

We also have a WoB post-OB where Brandon was asked if we'd seen a Dawnshard yet and he said "yes and no". We've seen a lot of Hoid and Dalinar. Hoid used to be one, but not for a long time. If Dalinar was straight up a Dawnshard already the answer would just be "Yes".

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12846

So I don't think Dalinar = Dawnshard is correct, but it seems like it's wrapped up in his whole deal somehow. 

 

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yep, we have the Ch. 36 WoK epigraph mentioning the Dawnshard known to bind all creatures voidish or mortal. Unite, Bind, Connect it's a word like that. I agree Dalinar must be tied into a Dawnshard in some way, but not actually one in the straightforward sense. Much like he is kind of Honor enough to briefly form the perpendicularity, but he isn't actually a Shard vessel fulltime. 

We also have a WoB post-OB where Brandon was asked if we'd seen a Dawnshard yet and he said "yes and no". We've seen a lot of Hoid and Dalinar. Hoid used to be one, but not for a long time. If Dalinar was straight up a Dawnshard already the answer would just be "Yes".

 https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394/#e12846

So I don't think Dalinar = Dawnshard is correct, but it seems like it's wrapped up in his whole deal somehow. 

Yeah, those visions with the warm light he gets that people (myself included) have been speculating or assuming was related to his "pruning" by Cultivation, may be some aspect of this.

That would be something, eh? The same man - Dalinar Kholin - not only being an Alethi highprince by birth and a Full Shardbearer in his youth, but eventually becoming a key Investiture Pawn for Honor (Stormfather/Bondsmith), Odium (first choice of Champion), Cultivation (cursed/booned to thwart Odium), and also possibly endowed or involved with a Dawnshard?

Ta'veren, I tell you! 

[Eternal Khol]

29 minutes ago, Karger said:

We just got a WoB.  It is not directly related to Endowment.

 

Also. all dawnshards would do that to people

 

The21stPotato

Can you tell us the equivalent heightening she now has? She seems to be at least third heightening equivalent but I'm not sure how much else she has gained from holding a dawnshard. Do ALL dawnshards grant these heightening-like effects?

 

 

 

mistborn All dawnshards would grant the same effects in this regard.

As for specifics, I think I'll leave that as what is mentioned in the text, for now. (Sorry.)

[Michael Portz]

Well ... in terms of the topics title ... what I have learned is, that even after 15 years in the cosmere I can still be absolutely awestruck with its stories.

...

Back to the less emotional interaction with the topic ... 

[Zelly]

59 minutes ago, Kittalia said:

I don't think anyone's brought up that we know now that Spren have subspecies/geographic variations. I found it absolutely fascinating that Larkins need a bond with an Amian Mandra/Luckspren specifically. 

What I found interesting was that they had to go to a specific place to bond.  The Luckspren were with the ship for a long time, I don't think they were specifically an Aimian type. 

But why go all the way to Aimia to bond?  Maybe it's like animals from our world who travel thousands of miles each year to roost/mate/feed at very specific spot?

 

[GudThymes]

5 hours ago, Zelly said:

What I found interesting was that they had to go to a specific place to bond.  The Luckspren were with the ship for a long time, I don't think they were specifically an Aimian type. 

But why go all the way to Aimia to bond?  Maybe it's like animals from our world who travel thousands of miles each year to roost/mate/feed at very specific spot?

 

That, or maybe there's a catalyst in Aimia that allows them to bond. Like how chasmfiends go to the shattered plains to pupate. 

[teknopathetic]

1 minute ago, GudThymes said:

That, or maybe there's a catalyst in Aimia that allows them to bond. Like how chasmfiends go to the shattered plains to pupate. 

It did seem like maybe Chiri-Chiri wasn’t alone in that chamber....

I don’t think she made the roar that was heard. 

[+robardin]

Kind of ironic that a species that is symbiotic with luckspren would be hunted nearly to extinction...
 

 

[ScadrianTank]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Kind of ironic that a species that is symbiotic with luckspren would be hunted nearly to extinction...

Double the irony for the chasmfiends?

And a warning for the skyeels...

[Skybreakdancer]

23 hours ago, Criggleworth said:

But, we also learned that at least some Horneaters are able to form (probably temporary) bonds with non-Radiant spren. Cord mentions that her dad had the blessings of spren that used to strengthen his arm.

I don't think the two theories are incompatible, but Cord's conversation with Rsyn about the Horneaters' lack of Shards read to me as more evidence that Rock is a third ideal KR (Stoneward?):

Quote

“We spent years and years trying to get Shards. This thing cost us many of our bravest fighters. And so far, the only Shards we have belong to my father—who insists he cannot use them.” She shook her head. “The Alethi have Shards. The Thaylens have Shards. The Vedens have Shards. But on the Peaks, we have none.”

We haven't yet seen Rock "possess" a shard in-book, right? He couldn't have had a sprenblade before descending from the Peaks (or else why bother trying to claim a shardblade). But perhaps he had already begun a sprenbond?

Edited November 7, 2020 by Skybreakdancer

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Skybreakdancer said:

I don't think the two theories are incompatible, but Cord's conversation with Rsyn about the Horneaters' lack of Shards read to me as more evidence that Rock is a third ideal KR (Stoneward?):

We haven't yet seen Rock "possess" a shard in-book, right? He couldn't have had a sprenblade before descending from the Peaks (or else why bother trying to claim a shardblade). But perhaps he had already begun a sprenbond?

He won a full set of Shards by killing Amaram, in saving Kaladin's life at Thaylen Fields.

In fact he won two Blades in so doing, but returned Oathbringer to Dalinar, as the blood price that was paid for saving Bridge Four from Sadeas' clutches.

 

[Skybreakdancer]

14 minutes ago, robardin said:

He won a full set of Shards by killing Amaram, in saving Kaladin's life at Thaylen Fields.

In fact he won two Blades in so doing, but returned Oathbringer to Dalinar, as the blood price that was paid for saving Bridge Four from Sadeas' clutches.

 

"You don't need to re-read OB before RoW comes out," he told himself.

Thanks! Those last few parts feel like a fever dream I was trying to blaze through them so fast. 

[Kittalia]

17 hours ago, Zelly said:

What I found interesting was that they had to go to a specific place to bond.  The Luckspren were with the ship for a long time, I don't think they were specifically an Aimian type. 

But why go all the way to Aimia to bond?  Maybe it's like animals from our world who travel thousands of miles each year to roost/mate/feed at very specific spot?

 

From the text: 

Quote

“Larger greatshells need to bond mandras—you call them luckspren—to keep from crushing themselves to death with their own weight. The mandras of this place are special. Smaller, yet more potent, than the common breeds. It is no simple thing to make a creature as heavy as a lancer—or larkin, as they are now called—fly. Chiri-Chiri will need to return every few years until she is fully grown.”

I assume that means that even if other mandras were following the ship, it was specifically an Aimian Mandra Chiri-Chiri had to bond with. As for the specific place, I don't think it has anything to do with migration since Larkins are originally native to Aimia and seemed to have only gone to the Reshi Isles after the shattering, and then stayed small. There still may be something special about Akinar itself, but I wouldn't count on it.

 

I"m also not convinced the roar was a Larkin. At the time, I read it as the distant noise of Lopen's battle up above, and I still think that's more likely than there being a hidden ancient Larkin that the Sleepless have missed over all these years and that didn't make an appearance when the Dawnshard was taken. Now, reading over it again, I think it could be more than the slug monster, but I'd still imagine it as some kind of cognitive shadow or magical warning system than a living larkin. 

[Nathrangking]

We have learned that Brandon can still shock, amuse, and leave us in awe!!

More importantly the information contained within is massive.

krazynoah123

From what is described in the end, are all the forms of investiture derived in some way from one of the Dawnshards?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO. (Sorry.)

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

In light of the above discussion concerning grouping shards under a command associated with a Dawnshard this WoB is interesting. It is not an outright no. Now RAFO is tricky, but interesting nonetheless. 

This addresses the question of other types of investiture leading to effects like the Dawnshard.

skyeguye

From Rysn's observations in the epilogue, it seems like she has alot of the same aspects of a Fifth Heightening/Returned at the least. Is this because her Dawnshard is particularly connected to Endowment or because the effects of a certain level of investment result in similar effects?

Brandon Sanderson

The latter.

Skrimyt

Interesting. So are actively Surgebinding Radiants or metal-burning Allomancers just not Invested enough to gain those passive effects, or do they not experience perfect pitch/color/etc. because their Investiture is just not as tightly bound to their spiritweb as Endowment's Breaths or a Dawnshard would be?

Brandon Sanderson

Be aware that the two groups you mention don't generally hold much investiture themselves, at least not in large quantities over time. More in Surgebinding. Almost none in Allomancy.

But RAFO to specifics.

Dawnshard Annotations Reddit Q&A (Nov. 6, 2020)

 

Rysn just jumped to almost the top of cosmerically aware and important characters in the whole of SA!!

[ftl]

On 11/5/2020 at 9:21 PM, Karger said:

• Rock's enhanced strength comes from Mandras.  We still don't know what kind of spren they are but they apparently guard wealth so maybe prosperityspren?

 

People call them luckspren. They're also the ones found around greatshells, chasmfiends, and skyeels (anything that shouldn't be able to fly or support its weight, but can do so anyway.)

[+robardin]

On 11/6/2020 at 5:53 PM, robardin said:

The same man - Dalinar Kholin - not only being an Alethi highprince by birth and a Full Shardbearer in his youth, but eventually becoming a key Investiture Pawn for Honor (Stormfather/Bondsmith), Odium (first choice of Champion), Cultivation (cursed/booned to thwart Odium), and also possibly endowed or involved with a Dawnshard?

I just thought of something. Cultivation said to herself as she considered what she did to Dalinar: "IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS."

She then describes the boon and the cost as "WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST. IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS."

Dalinar is later confused when hiis memories of Evi begin to return, as no other account of the Old Magic has either the boon or bane be anything other than permanent.

So either it's different when Cultivation Herself does it... Or she had more going on in mind? The returning memories were part of the cost. Not a wearing off of a boon, where the boon isn't supposed to be temporary.

And even if you thought of it as the return of pledged collateral on the interest paid to get something for a while, like at a pawnshop - if giving up the memories formed the collateral, that yielding can't also be the boon itself, right?

And what is this "very dangerous weapon" she is potentially providing for Odium? Giving him years to recover from the haunted memories and making him stronger? But Odium was counting on the pain from those memories returning to cause him to fall - as if their return were not something of Cultivation's doing, but his. (He knows Dalinar met with Cultivation and lost his memories, after all.)

... Or was she taking his memories temporarily, knowing they'd return, while also making Dalinar a Dawnshard?! (And here I'd thought the Nightwatcher offering him Nightblood for a boon was astounding!) That's the permanent boon.

And the permanent cost? She evidently still has "a part of Dalinar", something she'd have retained even if he'd fallen to Odium despite her pruning, and would "do her well" in that eventuality.

Hmm?

Edited November 8, 2020 by robardin

[+Czernobog]

Not certain why, if Cultivation possessed a Dawnshard, she would give it away. Especially to a "lesser"-mind human, where it would be less effective against Odium. 

[Nathrangking]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

I just thought of something. Cultivation said to herself as she considered what she did to Dalinar: "IN DOING THIS, I PROVIDE FOR HIM A WEAPON. DANGEROUS, VERY DANGEROUS."

She then describes the boon and the cost as "WHAT I TAKE FROM YOU WILL GROW BACK EVENTUALLY. THIS IS PART OF THE COST. IT WILL DO ME WELL TO HAVE A PART OF YOU, EVEN IF YOU ULTIMATELY BECOME HIS."

Dalinar is later confused when hiis memories of Evi begin to return, as no other account of the Old Magic has either the boon or bane be anything other than permanent.

So either it's different when Cultivation Herself does it... Or she had more going on in mind? The returning memories were part of the cost. Not a wearing off of a boon, where the boon isn't supposed to be temporary.

And even if you thought of it as the return of pledged collateral on the interest paid to get something for a while, like at a pawnshop - if giving up the memories formed the collateral, that yielding can't also be the boon itself, right?

And what is this "very dangerous weapon" she is potentially providing for Odium? Giving him years to recover from the haunted memories and making him stronger? But Odium was counting on the pain from those memories returning to cause him to fall - as if their return were not something of Cultivation's doing, but his. (He knows Dalinar met with Cultivation and lost his memories, after all.)

... Or was she taking his memories temporarily, knowing they'd return, while also making Dalinar a Dawnshard?! (And here I'd thought the Nightwatcher offering him Nightblood for a boon was astounding!) That's the permanent boon.

And the permanent cost? She evidently still has "a part of Dalinar", something she'd have retained even if he'd fallen to Odium despite her pruning, and would "do her well" in that eventuality.

Hmm?

I'm not so sure. We do see places where it seems that cultivation herself seemingly involved and weirdness resulted.

Spoilerd for a bunch of WoB's (Emphasis my own.)

Spoiler

Snoxcatko

Why is Lift different in the way she processes Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

She was created that way specifically, by ac- an "Act of Cultivation".

Snoxcatko

Okay, so she went to see Nightwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

 

Questioner

When Odium and Dalinar were having their meeting in Oathbringer, Odium seemed kinda freaked out by something. Could it possibly be related to how Lift can interact with spren in the physical world, and that might cause some problems for him, <seeing the impossible>?

Brandon Sanderson

He is weirded out by Lift, certainly. Lift is something that shouldn't exist, let's just say that. You'll find out why, probably in book 6? But she should not exist.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

Argent

Do all Surgebinders breathe Stormlight in, or are there other ways? Is Lift one-of-a-kind in this regard?

Brandon Sanderson

Lift is one of a kind.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

athos45678

Has anyone in the history of Roshar ever had Lift’s special physiology? Or is she like a whole new human

Brandon Sanderson

You could say anyone that has their DNA or spiritweb meddled with by the Nightwatcher is something new--that said, Lift is an experiment that hasn't been tried before.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

 

Kfirw

Did Taravangian meet the Nightwatcher? Or Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson

Cultivation. Good question.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)  

The weirdness factor of having cultivation intervene personally is what I would lean toward.

[Eternal Khol]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

And what is this "very dangerous weapon" she is potentially providing for Odium? Giving him years to recover from the haunted memories and making him stronger? But Odium was counting on the pain from those memories returning to cause him to fall

The “weapon” was Dalinar himself.

the way i see it is, Dalinar becoming Odiums champion was a sure thing.

If cultivation had done nothing, he would have definitely become Odium’s champion. But... If she “pruned” him, that chance was still there, but now there was a small chance, that when the time came, Dalinar would defy Odium instead
 

when Dalinar went to Cultivation, she saw that Dalinar was Odium’s. But she saw something, so she took a chance and “pruned” him. Which if it worked(would stop Dalinar from becoming Odium’s Champion. And if it didnt work, Cultivation would still have a piece of, presumably, Dalinar soul in case things got out of control and Dalinar needed to be dealt with)

keeping a “part of him” is just how Cultivation works. She doesn’t make any moves without having a good backup in place

Edited November 8, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[+Bliev]

I think the fact they call them “luck spren” is a quirk of naming and not really bc they’re lucky. So we will want to be careful to infer that they act as other spren and are attracted to “luck”. Rather I think it’s likely that they’re culturally associated with lucky outcomes because mandras are found around great shells etc. due to their bonds, and rosharan economic reliance on great shell hunts and gem hearts. I wonder if they’re sentient—like radiant or protoradiant spren or if they’re not. Would be a good wob.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Eternal Khol said:

The “weapon” was Dalinar himself.

the way i see it is, Dalinar becoming Odiums champion was a sure thing.

If cultivation had done nothing, he would have definitely become Odium’s champion. But... If she “pruned” him, that chance was still there, but now there was a small chance, that when the time came, Dalinar would defy Odium instead
 

when Dalinar went to Cultivation, she saw that Dalinar was Odium’s. But she saw something, so she took a chance and “pruned” him. Which if it worked(would stop Dalinar from becoming Odium’s Champion. And if it didnt work, Cultivation would still have a piece of, presumably, Dalinar soul in case things got out of control and Dalinar needed to be dealt with)

Right. Everything there is what I would have said before myself.

This is my point. If Dalinar was predestined to be Odium's champion absent her pruning, why would she consider what she was doing to be possibly be "providing for him a weapon" rather than "denying him a weapon"?

And how is removing his memories of Evi both the boom, and yet part of the cost? Or be something that receded with time instead of being permanent?

Put the two inconsistencies together and perhaps something deeper was going on. Something that may tie in with the also unexplained things about Dalinar, like his warm non-Honor visions.

And maybe even his ability to renew spheres. They think it's because he's the first to bond the SF after he upgraded with a Splinter of Honor, but that may not be the whole story.

[Eternal Khol]

If we look at the Commands like Commands used in Warbreaker. There is actually lots of parallels.

to Awaken, you need a Command(kinda like what you want done or to happen) and the Intent(kinda like the instructions to fulfill the command)

A Command(in Awakening) is generally more like a vague description of what you want done(i.e. “fetch keys”)  You combine that Command with the visualization(the intent in this case) of the awakened item walking to where the keys are and grabbing them and heading back to you.

maybe the Commands(dawnshards) are like the “generality”(wrong word?) of what Ado wanted, and the Shards Intents, are the means by which this is accomplished

One Dawnshard Commands “Change”

And the Intent of Ruin or Cultivation may be one of the means by which this Change occurs.

Doesnt it seem weird that all the pieces of Ado weve seen so far have been just like parts of his Cognitive aspect? 
The Commands are what he desired. The Intents are the way he view certain things.(Ruin is the way he viewed entropy) 

i have a suspicion that Ado was too influenced by peoples perceptions or something like that and that why they shattered him.

or that his will needed to be separate from his power.

 

Investiture follows Commands(right?) and all Investiture itself has a “certain spin or magnetism” which is the different Intents

i wish i was smarter, i could probably glean something out of that Lol

i was going somewhere with that, but it totally left my brain halfway through.  someone please expand XD

 

Brandon said in regards to awakening that “intention rather than really what you say is what matters”

which is pretty much “Intent matters more than the Command”

i wonder if that applies to the Dawnshards. I think it would.

 

just some random thoughts.

Edited November 9, 2020 by Eternal Khol
Typo’s

[MIKIL]

On 11/6/2020 at 0:53 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

Endowment, Cultivation, and Ruin all seem to be a group and would be tied to Rysn’s Dawnshard. They’re all change, and I think you’ve got the types right. But I don’t think Ambition goes with them.

I hypothesize that Ambition and Autonomy are in a group, and their Dawnshard may be about will. Ambition is the Will to grow. Autonomy is the Will to be free. Will?

I further hypothesize that Preservation and Odium are in a group. Both have shown elements of the unchanging void. Odium is the unchanging self. Those who bond to him, who give him their pain, become void and are unable to grow. Preservation is the world frozen. It is the void where time does not move. I suspect both are connected to the idea of eternity. Nothing changes in the void.

But wasnt it specified that 4 commands that made everything? though change can be one, is unity and will required? maybe, but when we pick four basic commands ig we need something more broader and life essential like change( organism without unity is okay, bit without change isnt life)

[Kingsdaughter613]

8 minutes ago, MIKIL said:

But wasnt it specified that 4 commands that made everything? though change can be one, is unity and will required? maybe, but when we pick four basic commands ig we need something more broader and life essential like change( organism without unity is okay, bit without change isnt life)

Unite is a consideration because of what happened with Dalinar. Survive is considered because of how Kell describes hearing the word in the Pits.

Act, which is what I’m currently calling the hypothesized will/drive Shard, is because it fits with what little we know.

[MIKIL]

Came looking for some fun time with lopen and rysn and maybe some fight scenes. Never expected this level climax .more things to think upon than the 10 wot books. wow