The Nature of the Dawnshard

[Scarrow Man]

Does anyone else think that one of the Dawnshards might be Connection? It gets mentioned a lot, but isn't specifically any of the shards or surges.

[IndigoAjah]

Been a loooong while since I've been on here! 

 

Just want to say, I don't think any Dawnshards can be too close to an Intent. It just feels wrong and if Destroy is a Dawnshard then the implication that more than one of them was used to split Adonalsium makes little sense. 

 

So Change for sure is one. I think any others would have to be vaguer than Create or Destroy. Maybe Begin? If we are going down a God route, maybe Know or See?

[IndigoAjah]

On 06/11/2020 at 11:53 AM, KandraAllomancer said:

My proposition would be:

Change: improvement and growth

Shards: Cultivation, Endowment

Current holder: Rysn

Unity: unification of people, ideas, Shards etc.

Shards: Honor, Devotion, Dominion

Current holder: Dalinar

Passion: the will to fight and the ability to destroy

Shards: Odium, Ruin, Autonomy, Ambition

Current holder: possibly Rayse, who uses it to splinter other Shards

Survival: creating and protecting life. Possibly Hoid's Dawnshard

Shards: Preservation, Survival Shard

Current holder: my best guess would be the Survival Shard. Or maybe it's hidden on Vax

 

Brandon's original plan for Scadrial was for the significant number to be four, not sixteen, so you might be onto something:

 

Trouble with Unite as a Command or Action that seems inherent to the universe is that, um, it isn't.

 

Change defines the laws of entropy. Change is inevitable. 

Unifying is the opposite. Things break up, they don't Unify, generally, though I guess you could make an argument for nuclear fusion here. 

 

I know Dalinar did something nuts when he said that, but I'm personally sure that's either linked to Honor (bringing people together) of which he became a partial Holder, or of Adonalsium himself as a noun. But the Dawnshards appear to be verbs.

[IndigoAjah]

I think we apply the fundamental laws of physics here, as well as what God would have to be able to DO as well as to BE.

 

Everything Changes, eventually, and God has to be able to Change things. As a bonus, God is not changed, in theory, which creates a second pattern - this are things God does actively but doesn't have done it it. Transitive. I like patterns so I'm going try this one too. 

 

Create? Maybe. It seems too obvious in some ways, but actually I guess that's the demiurge concept, so I'll allow Create/Begin and the universe has to Begin. Does God begin? Christian theology would argue not, so fits that secondary pattern too. 

 

End/Die. I think this is distinct to Destroy. But does the Universe end? It heads towards heat death. Does the world as created by God end? Depends on exactly what Sanderson thinks about the Future. But, would fit in that God doesn't End.

 

Rather than Unite, which is possible as God would Unite things, though it would seem to make reforming Adonalsium a bit too easy, and it's a complex question to ask about Uniting God - and most importantly I don't think you can say the Universe inherently Unifies, it's not a law of existence - I would posit one of the following:

 

Spread - things inherently spread as per thermodynamics and entropy, God spreads things from a centre but cannot be spread, being Omnipresent.

Proliferate - another law of life and physics,and something God would make other things do but, being the Only God, never do itself.

Split - see above. God is, apparently, unified, impossible to break up EVEN when it has distinct parts (that's a key attribute of the Trinity in fact).

 

Just to say, I'm not Christian, but I think applying Sanderson's joint interests of physics and theology, specifically Judeo-Christian and more specifically Mormon theology, to the big concepts is most likely to align with the messages he will infuse his works with. 

This is all conjecture, but it's how I think Sanderson bases his universe 

[trav]

On 23.11.2020 at 6:14 PM, IndigoAjah said:

Trouble with Unite as a Command or Action

one of the forces is infinite, can not be shielded against and only attracts. it pulls everything from everywhere together. making everything that ever existed one again. eventually.

Gravity sound much like a force that unites.

[IndigoAjah]

58 minutes ago, trav said:

one of the forces is infinite, can not be shielded against and only attracts. it pulls everything from everywhere together. making everything that ever existed one again. eventually.

Gravity sound much like a force that unites.

Is that a quote from Sanderson about the Dawnshards that I've missed?

[Fezzik]

No, I think trav was meaning to rebut this:

On 11/23/2020 at 11:27 AM, IndigoAjah said:

I don't think you can say the Universe inherently Unifies, it's not a law of existence

By saying Gravity is a law of the universe that inherently unifies. 

[IndigoAjah]

20 minutes ago, Fezzik said:

No, I think trav was meaning to rebut this:

By saying Gravity is a law of the universe that inherently unifies. 

Except we thing that the Universe is and will continue to inherently expand and split

[Alatar]

In RoW we're presented with the names of several other Shards, casually mentioned. With those names (I won't mention them, in case it's considered spoiler) I think we fill the Passion cuadrant. Also, we have already some proposals for Unity and Change and I think there are also 2 couples: 2 positive and 2 negative Shards. For example, for those we know, Honor would be positive Unity and Dominion negative Unity, while Devotion would be positive Passion and Odium negative Passion. And, with those mentioned in RoW, we have the Shard list almost complete (I think we have 14 or 15 confirmed at least in name).

More on that when both Dawnshard and RoW are free for discussion because, really, you must take both into account to advance further.

[CogitoErgoArclo]

I was hoping this would be a hot take, but @ShardplateJoe III beat me to it. Just wanted to expand on it in this thread, because in listening to the Dawnshards Shardcast, I think @Argent and I are thinking along similar lines. 
 

We have a real word example of 4 fundamental forces that shaped the cosmos, they’re usually described very simply, and their names are misleading but the concepts are absolutely mind boggling. 

4 fundamental forces are: 

Gravity- The Curvature of Spacetime

Electromagnetism- Light, energy, and particularly: electromagnetic stasis. 

The Strong Force- Binding things at an atomic level. 

The Weak Force- radioactive decay, or entropy. (Sort of)

Keep in mind, I’m no physicist, and my understanding is flawed, but as a lover of stories I think these are perfect for the 4 fundamental Commands of an omnipotent being, used to create reality itself. 
For example: 

Strong Force- “Bind” (I’m not sure I agree giving the Dawnshards a single word name, but I’ll play the game)

Weak Force- “Change” I think it fits thematically with Rysn, as on its face it seems weak, but is not at all on closer inspection. Also It’s takes unstable nuclei and transforms them into lighter nuclei, which seems on brand for both a merchant, and Chirri-chirri. 

Electromagnetism- “Stasis” most likely Hoids dawnshard, and very analogous to “let there be light”

Gravity- “Connect”, the one that’s not like the others because it defines the relationship between all matter and energy, and allows us to perceive Time. 
 

I definitely think Brandon could take some artistic liberty and combine gravity and the strong force, which would let him have  the fourth be “Live” or something like that. But I think it would be more satisfying if life came about naturally as an interaction between these forces, since I think that would be the Intent of a totally Omnipotent being. 
 

Now for the juicy/tinfoil bit: 

I think when he says they’re the Commands of a God, he’s being pretty literal. 
My understanding of Adonalsium is he is/was GOD in the transcendental sense. I think it’s the Iriali who call him The One? So he IS all of the universe. All matter, all energy, all light, all life, all of time. And it’s antithesis as well. 
But as the Iriali tell us: The One knew everything, but had experienced nothing, so the one became many, to experience all things. 
I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to see Brandon blending what’s known of the Big Bang and religious philosophy. 

That in mind, there had to be a point in “time” when in was just Adonalsium. No Yolen, No Hoid, No Rayse, no original vessels. Just Adonalsium, a sapient point of infinite Power with absolutely nothing outside of itself.
So in order to make something outside of itself, it would have to Make something External. It would need to cast out, and use parts of its infinite self to craft the infinite structure of Reality. 
Hence: “Dawnshard” literally the first bits of Adonalsium, outside Adonalsium. 
Similar to, but fundamentally different from Shards as we know them, because the Intent behind each of the four is the fundamental structure of the Cosmere and it’s perpetuity. As opposed to the shattered Mind, Body, and Soul of the being itself. 

If, and big if, that is true I think the process behind creating the Dawnshards is analogous to a human speaking. If we as humans wish to make an intent of ours external, the process that takes the least amount of energy is speaking, we create vibrations that travel through a medium, and can be received and (possibly) understood by another being. But even if no one, or nothing hears those words, the vibrations/energy from those words still exist. Multiply that concept by the infinite power of a god, and...

I think Adonalsium “spoke” his Commands, in order to make his Intents External. Energy(or investiture)with four different, but Connected, Intents left him, and the interactions between them make up the fundamental fabric of the Cosmere. 
And I think the Dawnshards are the places in the Cosmere where the vibrational energy of those Commands have coalesced and are tangible. The infinite “words” of an infinite being, that give structure to all we know. 
And as I’ve heard you folks talk about before, investiture seems to become conscious in great enough concentration. Which would explain why it seems to have some consciousness, and why it seeks to connect with things that can give it intent.
 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2020 by CogitoErgoArclo
Edited to clarify some of my more esoteric thoughts

[SirWolfe]

Ooh, I like all of these ideas. 

My theory:

Intent and Command are different. Intent is the specific method or quality by which one acts, while Command is the overall goal that one tries to reach. I imagine that the Dawnshards are like Duralumin, but where Duralumin supercharges the raw power that one can access, a Dawnshard supercharges the person's control and direct their use of Investiture. 

-Change: Grow, improve, change, decay, etc.

-Connect [The interactions between things]: Interact, feel, attach, gravitational and other physical forces, bind.

-Maintain [I think this is the Dawnshard that Hoid had at one point, which would explain his near immortality and inability to harm others]: Care for, heal, protect, continue existing, be stable, survive, be consistent and follow laws of physics.

-Begin: This one would be the weird one. This is the Command that would have started everything. 

At least, that's what I think.

[eulogistofworlds]

Most of the time in culture with the number 4 is related to life and death for example 4 and dead in Chinese have only a tonal difference. Some research has found each person has 4 basic needs:

The need to live or survive

The need to feel important

The need to for variety

The need to love and be loved

I feel like each of these correlates with the dawnshard divisions. 

The need to live - Live

The need to feel important - Endure, protect

The need for variety - Change

The need to love and be loved - Feel, Emotions

My main guess at the four commands would be Endure, Change, Live, and Feel