Argent

The Nature of the Dawnshard

87 posts in this topic

Hoo boy there's a lot of really good thoughts on this thread! 

I also take issue with Passion and actually think something along the lines of Live/Experience life might fit better. In fact, I was wondering if the Iriali and their journey could be related to this. What if their whole thing on experiencing everything is directly, or at least thematically, related to one of the Commands? I don't think it has to be anything like them being commanded by a Dawnshard, I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe they derived their whole philosophy from hearing about one of the Commands of the Dawnshards or that the "One" is holding this Dawnshard.

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13 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

For the first point, I don't see what is problematic about it. The mural indicates there is some form of commonality among sets of four Shards - Adonalsium, split into four, split into four more each. The Dawnshards aren't the the four; the Dawnshards are specific items/concepts/Investiture that guided the splits. The Shards, together, are the summation of Adonalsium; the Dawnshards are tools that accomplish ends. The commonalities between the infinity of the Shards are the clues to reverse-engineer what the Dawnshards were that divided them (not that created them). And, while one data point does not define a trend, that is what we can see with the single Dawnshard we know about. Change does seem very much like Cultivation, but the concept of Cultivation gains more depth in the destruction required and in the intentions behind it. But the concept of Change can also be further specified and refined to Endowment or Ruin (although it's possible to make quite a variety of cases, similar to how various characters can be argued to the path for multiple Orders of Radiant); Change isn't limited by Cultivation, it's the starting point to take Cultivation from God. We need to start at the Shards and work backwards; not because the Dawnshards are created from the Shards, but because the Shards are the only tangible influence we can see to the Dawnshards' nature.

For the second point, I think you've got it backwards. The Dawnshards need to describe life, not just everything in existence.

On the second point I think life is covered by "everything in the universe".  Adonalsium created planets teaming with life along with the lifeless gas giants in Roshar. I think the Dawnshards names would cover both life and other matter in the Cosmere and I don't see that as particularly hard to do. CHANGE is equally applicable to organic and inorganic. UNITE as well. 

On your first point, I agree the shards fit into the 4 Dawnshard categories and are all part of the same whole. Adonalsium was the sum of what we now know of as the Shards, Dawn and otherwise. I think they were both part of Adonalsium. Somehow the Dawnshards became separate enough pre-shattering to be utilized in the shattering. 

The emotions Rysn felt seem like Adonalsium's before he died. It seems like they must have been a part of him if they house some of his emotions. 

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So I think we have two Dawnshards nailed on the head: Change and Unite. The problem I have with Argent's original schematic is that I don't think something can be created from nothing, or that something can be utterly destroyed into nothing. We should treat the Dawnshards' Commands as pseudoscientific fundamental forces, and Unite and Change already set the template from which we can extrapolate the other two. A lot of other people are hinting at similar Commands, but I'm adding some of my own names for Commands, and I'm also expressing each as a generic chemical reaction to demonstrate how fundamental they are.

Change ( A ---> B ) - Something becomes something else.

Unite ( A + B ---> C) - Two or more things combine to form less things.

Divide ( A ---> B + C ) - Some number of things split into even more things.

Remain ( A ---> A ) - Something goes through a process without altering or changing.

One last note is that I really like Divide as a Command. It feels very antithetical to Unite. While I think the thematic idea of Stay, or Stasis as it was termed in the OP, is the correct idea, I'm not sure I like the term Stay. Maybe Remain or even just Be would work better?

Edit: I changed Stay to Remain in the list of Commands.

Edited by ILuvHats
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5 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

One last note is that I really like Divide as a Command. It feels very antithetical to Unite. While I think the thematic idea of Stay, or Stasis as it was termed in the OP, is the correct idea, I'm not sure I like the term Stay. Maybe Remain or even just Be would work better?

 

Remain does sound much more... regal. Although “preserve” comes to mind...

Spoiler

I also definitely thought that said “Renarin” and was very confused

 

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Just now, Ashbringer said:


 

Remain does sound much more... regal. Although “preserve” comes to mind...

  Hide contents

I also definitely thought that said “Renarin” and was very confused

 

You know what, yeah. I'll just change my original post to be Remain. That does sound better.

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11 hours ago, Argent said:

Brandon just dropped an annotation for this book, and apparently Hoid was a Dawnshard at one point (!). His immortality seems consistent with the Statis Dawnshard. Rysn's is obviously Change.

Ha, that answers my musings I had on my drive home from work where I was wondering what Brandon would answer to the question whether Hoid once was/had a Dawnshard and if that's what causes his strange non-hurting behaviour.

Aside from that, what a bombshell in such a tiny book. I have to grasp some air and then go for a thorough reread. A nightly reading session followed by work was perhaps not the best reading strategy - but waiting was out of the question ;-)

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My personal theory: the Dawnshards are CHANGE, SURVIVE, UNITE, and UNBOUND

CHANGE (the ability to change one thing into another)

  • Current Holder: Rysn
  • Theorized Previous Owner(s): Cultivation who then hid it on Roshar.
  • Connected Shards:
    1. Cultivation (change through growth)
    2. Ruin (change through inevitable entropy)
    3. Endowment (change through gift)

SURVIVE/STAY (the ability to keep one thing the same)

  • Current Theorized Holder: Kelsier
  • Hypothetical Previous Owner(s): Mistborn spoilers below
    Spoiler

    Preservation mentioned hiding a weapon against Ruin in Scadrial. A Dawnshard is arguably one of the few things Preservation can use to defeat Ruin without dying in the process.

     

  • Connected Shards:
    1. Preservation
    2. The Survival Shard?

UNITE/BIND (the ability to bond things together)

  • Current Theorized Holder: Dalinar 
  • Hypothetical Previous Owner(s): Ishar, Honor, Nohadon 
    Spoiler

    Ishar: (SYL INTERLUDE SPOILERS)

    Spoiler

    Ishar bound the Surges to bring the Ashynite to Roshar and bound the Heralds and the Fused into the Oathpact.

    Honor:

    • Honor used the Dawnshard to bind Odium into the Rosharan system. If the binding of Odium was done through a more normal oath, I don't think Honor has anything to offer in exchange for the binding.
    • My other thoughts on Honor as UNITE/BIND''s holder can be found here: 

    Nohadon:
    I think Nohadon holding UNITE/BIND and then having his Cognitive Shadow bound by either himself, Honor, or an unknown holder of UNITE/BIND might explain the OB Nohadon vision.

    Melishi: Melishi bound Ba-Ado-Mishram by using UNITE/BIND

     

  • Connected Shards:
    1. Honor (bound by oaths/contracts)
    2. Devotion (bound by shared desire/emotion/belief among people)
    3. Dominion (bond to the land)

UNBOUND/UNRAVEL/FREE (the ability to break a thing's bonds and limits)

  • Current Theorized Owner: Rayse who used it to destroy multiple Shards with mostly minimal damage to himself.
  • Hypothetical Previous Owner(s): -
  • Connected Shards:
    1. Odium (unbounded hatred/passion)
    2. Ambition (unbounded will/desire)
    3. Autonomy (freedom)
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3 hours ago, Nightweaver said:

I also take issue with Passion and actually think something along the lines of Live/Experience life might fit better. In fact, I was wondering if the Iriali and their journey could be related to this. What if their whole thing on experiencing everything is directly, or at least thematically, related to one of the Commands? I don't think it has to be anything like them being commanded by a Dawnshard, I'm thinking more along the lines of maybe they derived their whole philosophy from hearing about one of the Commands of the Dawnshards or that the "One" is holding this Dawnshard.

I know the Iriali are like “the One split to experience everything” so what if the Dawnshards are more about experiencing the trappings of life! In my mind they would be :

To Change: and it’s various intents

Cultivation

Ruin

Preservation

Ingenuity Shard

 

To Care: this could also be interpreted as Passion

Odium

Ambition

Survival Shard

 

To Connect: also could be like Unite

Honor

Endowment

Devotion 

 

To Choose:

Autonomy

Dominion

Prudence/Wisdom Shard


I think you could move some of these around, like Endowment or Devotion could possibly be switched in this categorization but these are all things that a static, unfeeling god would be able to do, so going off the Iriali saying the “one” wanted to basically be human, these seem like the things a god couldn’t do! 
 

Edit: I originally had Devotion in Care and Dominion in Connect but I figured they were better in Connect and Choose specifically 

Edited by Kesamijr
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4 hours ago, DracostarA said:

I think you're really onto something with Passion and didn't think of it. Brandon confirmed that there was a significance to the way Odium and Ruin spoke about Passion and he confirmed that there would be Shards who did not refer to it that way.

Edit: Found the WoB

 

That is a spectacular WoB, kudos.

Also, for those who are aligning the shards to one Command, we kind of know that exist a shard related to Inteligence. In wich Command will it fall?

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43 minutes ago, Algafix said:

That is a spectacular WoB, kudos.

Also, for those who are aligning the shards to one Command, we kind of know that exist a shard related to Inteligence. In wich Command will it fall?

Intelligence could fall under Create or similar. Ingenuity has been hinted at in WoBs as the word for the Shard, which is a synonym for creativity or inventiveness. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/123/#e3299

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/352/#e10288

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I had some Command-alignment ideas in the What We Learned thread based of each 4 group splits into 4 again. I'm not sure where Intelligence/Wisdom/Ingenuity would fit, though. (Those might be only 2 shards.)

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17 minutes ago, Ashbringer said:

I had some Command-alignment ideas in the What We Learned thread based of each 4 group splits into 4 again. I'm not sure where Intelligence/Wisdom/Ingenuity would fit, though. (Those might be only 2 shards.)

Wisdom in Remain, Endure or Survive. Whatever Preservation is in. Wisdom is usually associated with experience and one only gets experience by continuing to exist. 
Making wise decisions helps with survival. 

Ingenuity - Create. Using intelligence to make new things. 
 

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1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

For the second point, I think you've got it backwards. The Dawnshards need to describe life, not just everything in existence. The universe is more than just somethings; you've got the immaterial, you've got the social, the emotional, the spiritual. The existence of the Cognitive Realm shows that the fundamental fabric of the cosmere requires minds to observe it; and the Spiritual Realm holds Connections between people and all the things, material and immaterial, that influence and determine their natures. Intelligent life is not just a part of the cosmere; the cosmere exists for the purpose of developing intelligent life.

I think we are approaching the definition of the Dawnshards fundamentally different. My view is very much focused on... stuff. Inanimate matter, I guess, while yours sounds like it's a lot more about life and minds.

So I am curious about why you focus on life when it comes to this. Because it seems like all of the Dawnshard ideas that don't fit with my paradigm fit with some variation of yours :P

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Rysn said Change felt like "resignation" and "confidence" and "understanding".

I'm leaning away from similar groupings and more towards 4 shards creating something much more complex. Like rock + tree + snake + stream = forest. 

The Whole is only revealed when the parts are together.  On their own they lack context.

Quote

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. - 2nd Letter

 

Edited by Zelly
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21 hours ago, Argent said:

I think the four Dawnshards are:

  • Creation - something from nothing
  • Destruction - something into nothing
  • Change - something into something else
  • Statis  - something... and then still something

I feel like this is the closest ive seen yet(to what i imagine)

i just get the feeling that the Dawnshards Commands are more simple and straightforward than a lot of people are trying to make them to be.

theyre called “primal” commands.

primal meaning, occurring at an earlier stage of evolutionary development..

these 4 simple, broad Commands(that first created everything)evolved into the 16 Intents we know today.

Instead of simple destruction(if that is a Dawnshard), we now have entropy(or Ruin)

or maybe instead of Change, we have Cultivation(just a guess)

 

each Command, to me, should be something clear, simple, very broad, and straightforward.(even more so than the Intents)

i.e. Change or Destroy or Grow

 not things like “unity” or “unbound”

Edited by Eternal Khol
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9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Unity and Passion shard groupings makes sense. Passion can't be the name though. "The Dawnshards are Commands, Rysn." Nikli in DS ch. 19.  Passion isn't a command. That doesn't invalidate this grouping though. 

 

9 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

One thing is that these are Commands and not Shards, so the naming conventions need to be different. Passion doesn’t work as that term isn’t a command. These titles need to be more like verbs.  

To borrow some analogy from Christianity: the Great Commandment is to love God and your neighbor, which leads to further commands (the Decalogue), but can also be easily summarized by the name of the associated virtue: Charity/Caritas. That's how I see Passion: as a virtue associated with following the Dawnshard/Command that (among other things) makes people fight for what they believe in, live free and express themselves. And it would still be just an approximation, as these Commands are probably too complex to be simply expressed by words

9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I could see Ruin Change category shard. Sometimes you have to break a bone to set it straight, slice into someone to alter their health for good or ill. The death of a person or a planet exploding is a change to the state of that matter. 

Sometimes yes, but Ruin's attitude hardly matches this description. He didn't want to make things better, he wanted them to be annihilated. If there was anything wanting to improve the world in Ruin, it probably came from Ati, not the Shard. And he explicitly mentioned Passion, as Odium often does

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11 hours ago, Dalinar'sCroissant said:

I interpreted the dawnshard's function in the shattering as akin to running a programme with contradicting commands. Adonalsium's version of "does not compute" was to initially shatter in 4 pieces, each piece aligned to each command to be able to execute it. Presumably, the programme was still running even after this initial shattering, which led to the next 4x shattering.

I'm very interested in why four, and why sixteen from four. The fascinating feature of 16 is that 2^4, 4^2, and 2^2^2. Considering the numerology of the Cosmere (ahem, 16%, ahem), that's got to be significant.

Now we get a depiction of the Shattering on Roshar. A split into four, and each four into four again. 4^2. As seen with Ruin and Preservation, the number 2 describes opposites: +/-, left/right, in/out, yes/no, Good/Evil, Order/Chaos, etc.

The alternative to opposites +/- is binary, 0/1, presence/absence Light/Dark.

Four, as two pairs of two opposites, can be thought of as the directions on the Cartesian plane. If Preservation and Ruin are opposites, or inverses, in the mathematical sense, we must consider the nature of realmatic orthogonality. In two dimensions, we call it perpendicular instead of orthogonal. Perpendicularity makes sense as a description, as it describes some transversal across the three realms. Something perpendicular, orthogonal, to the axis of the realms.

If we have Change/Stasis as two of the pairs, it would make sense for the other two Dawnshards to be perpendicular to the Change/Stasis axis. You can think of this as whatever you like, but Creation and Destruction make some amount of sense. In this I agree wholeheartedly with @Eternal Khol.

A -> B

C -> C

 -> D

E ->

8 hours ago, Hessi's Ward said:

My personal theory: the Dawnshards are CHANGE, SURVIVE, UNITE, and UNBOUND

I like these, too. Survive is much better than Stasis. We've seen Unite already, but I will suggest maybe Dissolve or Divide as the inverse. I think the Four Commands, the Four Dawnshards, could either be thought of as two pairs of opposites, or an opposite and binary. This is definitely two pairs of two opposites.

The thing is, if there are Four Commands, then it becomes obvious there are Four Intents, and our Sixteen Shards are the sixteen unique combinations of the Four Commands with the Four Intents. Maybe Destroy and Create are Intents, not Commands? I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'm still looking for my four pairs, my 2^4, that will get me sixteen, and this is a huge explanation on where to look.

Edited by Rainier
Letters, etc
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“The Dawnshards are Commands, Rysn. The will of a god. The most powerful forms of Surgebinding transcend traditional mortal understanding, All their greatest applications require Intent and a Command. Demands on a level no person could ever manage alone. To make such Commands, one must have the reasoning—the breadth of understanding—of a deity. And so, the Dawnshards. The four primal Commands that created all things.” He paused. “And then eventually, they were used to undo Adonalsium itself. . . .”

Brandon clarified that “surgebinding” in this context just means any Cosmere magic

Surgebinding is kind of a catch-all for cosmere magic here. Literally binding (using) surges (a word for what we would call types of magic.”



He's pretty much saying

”the most powerful forms of magic in the Cosmere are above normal mortal understanding. All of this magic’s greatest feats require Intent and a Command. Things no person could manage alone. To be able to make those kinds of Commands, you need to have the wide understanding of a Deity. since mortals aren’t capable of that, the Dawnshards were created for such reason.”

 

“Require Intent and a Command” 

Does he mean, a literal spoken command(like Warbreaker) or a Command(a Dawnshard)?

And does he mean any kind of Intent or one of the Intents?


im probably misinterpreting everything, but im getting vibes that if Ado created the Dawnshards, he did so knowing they would eventually lead to its shattering

Edited by Eternal Khol
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30 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm very interested in why four, and why sixteen from four. The fascinating feature of 16 is that 2^4, 4^2, and 2^2^2. Considering the numerology of the Cosmere (ahem, 16%, ahem), that's got to be significant.

Now we get a depiction of the Shattering on Roshar. A split into four, and each four into four again. 4^2. As seen with Ruin and Preservation, the number 2 describes opposites: +/-, left/right, in/out, yes/no, Good/Evil, Order/Chaos, etc.

The alternative to opposites +/- is binary, 0/1, presence/absence Light/Dark.

Four, as two pairs of two opposites, can be thought of as the directions on the Cartesian plane. If Preservation and Ruin are opposites, or inverses, in the mathematical sense, we must consider the nature of realmatic orthogonality. In two dimensions, we call it perpendicular instead of orthogonal. Perpendicularity makes sense as a description, as it describes some transversal across the three realms. Something perpendicular, orthogonal, to the axis of the realms.

If we have Change/Stasis as two of the pairs, it would make sense for the other two Dawnshards to be perpendicular to the Change/Stasis axis. You can think of this as whatever you like, but Creation and Destruction make some amount of sense. In this I agree wholeheartedly with @Eternal Khol.

A -> B

C -> C

 -> D

E ->

I like these, too. Survive is much better than Stasis. We've seen Unite already, but I will suggest maybe Dissolve or Divide as the inverse. I think the Four Commands, the Four Dawnshards, could either be thought of as two pairs of opposites, or an opposite and binary. This is definitely two pairs of two opposites.

The thing is, if there are Four Commands, then it becomes obvious there are Four Intents, and our Sixteen Shards are the sixteen unique combinations of the Four Commands with the Four Intents. Maybe Destroy and Create are Intents, not Commands? I'm not sure what the difference is, but I'm still looking for my four pairs, my 2^4, that will get me sixteen, and this is a huge explanation on where to look.

I like this. Makes me wonder if we could use this theory to postulate the remaining unknown shards, based off the theoretical commands and the shards we know. 

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Just to jump in with my thoughts: I assumed during/immediately after reading that the Commands are what Adonalsium used to .. fully tap into his powers. Kind of like Rebar when used in building. You can do a lot with concrete, but you can do MORE with rebar and concrete. I would also assume they were originally part of Adonalsium - being used to Shatter him doesn't necessarily say otherwise; a good in world example is Larkin and Stormlight. All they would have to do to use it against him would be to have some understanding of how to tear the power out of him, and then utilize it. My current guess would be that they were part of him and they managed to suck out the power and use it to supercharge whatever weapon they used on him.
Also, I think the Command is Change as well. Is it wrong that thinking that makes me think of the Obama Change posters, and makes me think of it as the Obama Command? (Yes. I know that's stupid, but I never claimed my brain is anything but stupid)

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I jumped to thinking that Ambition was one of the Shards in the Change grouping- with would make the full group Ruin, Cultivation, Endowment and Ambition. 

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TL;DR at the bottom. Sorry for the length and formatting, first post here.

Before I begin, I would like to present a WoB that I think makes a lot of our theorizing so far incorrect, that many either are not aware of or are forgetting.

Quote

Curtis

Could you write something about Dawnshards that we don't/won't know?

Brandon

One Dawnshard is different from all the rest. 

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

This to me would very clearly indicate that with our newfound knowledge of there being four dawnshards (confirmed by the Sleepless, who also mentioned they aren't from Roshar and are very much cosmere aware,) one of them is different from the other three. Makes sense, right? So how could it be that it would be different, but still part of a matrix like what is being suggested?

We know that one is Change. So is that the different one, or one of the set of three? (That might be a good question for Brandon sometime.)

For now, I'm going to work with the assumption that it is one of the three. I posit for the next Dawnshard the command: Live. These are supposed to be very primal, correct? So we have Change, Live, and something else, with an additional odd one out. But, neither of these seems to be able to bind, which is a big point of what we are expecting based on evidence. But real quick, I would argue that Live is what Hoid held for a time, as he can't harm or eat meat. I'll have to go back through the WoBs and not during my reread of the books all the occurrences of Hoid and food but for the time being I think it was Live. Think about it as a primal force, Commanding to Live. You can't kill or harm if your primal command and directive is to LIVE, as a command for creation. It's meant to be tricky to grasp but I argue for it nonetheless. (Also, investiture left alone becomes sentient, Soo....)

So what else is primal, and we also need to keep in mind that one is different and one can bind. I don't have a solid argument on this, but it does seem pretty accepted that Unite or something akin to it is likely the next. So for now, let's go with that one as it is the idea of bringing together, which could involve literal matter in a physical creation, as well as more abstract such as joining peoples. So now it would seem we have our set of three Dawnshards, being Change, Live, Unite. These don't appear to overlap to me, feel free to correct me.

So what is the last Dawnshard? No idea. It's different somehow though, according to the big man himself. But how is it different? If they all relate to creation, then it's unlikely, in my reasoning, to be destruction. Brandon has stated MANY times that investiture and matter and energy are all the same in the Cosmere, and that everything gets recycled back into the system (or at least isn't destroyed, hence Night blood absorbing and retaining investiture without it being destroyed or leaving the system completely, which although not explicitly stated seems pretty obvious to me..). So destruction is off the table by this. So what if the last is something more like Challenge? It is thematically different, and also seems to fit with how the Cosmere works and the greater plan that seems to be going on, with world's eventually coming together and all that fun stuff. Compete could be another possible Command, but TBH I really don't like it and it doesn't feel right. But Challenge? Maybe.  

Also, Rysn does mention that the sun mural is broken into four MOSTLY even pieces that are further broken. There isn't an overlap between the four sections. The word 'mostly' to me indicates an oddity, potentially the one of four being different somehow. However, could also be artistic and not literal. 

Adonalsium was not angry at the shattering, but was confident, resigned and was accepting of what was happening. This was not some being/entity caught by surprise. I would argue that the light was a remnant of Ado, and that the guardian of Ancient Sins is indeed Chiri-Chiri, and the ancient sin was the shattering of Ado. Seems clear, but why and how? How is Chiri-Chiri a guardian of that? 

TL;DR

The Dawnshards aren't a matrix like has been posited abundantly. I would suggest a set of three and one, with the three being:

Change, Live, Unite (join, bind, etc. You get the meaning)

The one, I think could be: 

Challenge?

Thanks for reading my theory!

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Also, I wouldn't assume that Endowment is linked to the Change Dawnshard. On Reddit Brandon confirmed that the Heightening-like effect on Rysn is due to having a lot of Investiture and that any Dawnshard would provide the same perks in that regard.

EDIT: In addition, related to the WoB above:

Quote

Curtis

Could you write something about Dawnshards that we don't/won't know?

Brandon

One Dawnshard is different from all the rest. 

Words of Radiance release party (March 3, 2014)

Could this different one be Passion? One which isn't the same sort of command as the others?

Edited by DracostarA
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Or "different" could merely mean that (at the time of that quote) one dawnshard is not currently held by any mind.

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2 hours ago, Czernobog said:

Or "different" could merely mean that (at the time of that quote) one dawnshard is not currently held by any mind.

This is interesting, and immediately gave me an idea. What if one Dawnshard has become self-aware? That would certainly qualify as different. 

Edited by Kairos
Typo
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