Argent

The Nature of the Dawnshard

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Can you link to the annotaion?

Edit:  I'm to excited to read closely.

Edited by Elsecaller_17.5
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49 minutes ago, Argent said:

I think the four Dawnshards are:

  • Creation - something from nothing
  • Destruction - something into nothing
  • Change - something into something else
  • Statis  - something... and then still something

Brandon just dropped an annotation for this book, and apparently Hoid was a Dawnshard at one point (!). His immortality seems consistent with the Statis Dawnshard. Rysn's is obviously Change.

 

And Jerick was Destruction?

 

edit: and i wonder if Hoid’s Topaz was the Dawnshard before he was?

Edited by Eternal Khol
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I really like this idea and several shards sort really neatly, but I doubt it will be as neat as 4 dawnshards into 4 shards.  I'm interperting the mural a little differnet then you guys seem to be, but I won't drag that converstaion here.

There's something to be said with the Dawnshards being external to Adonlaisum.  They were wielded by the orignal vessels against him after all.

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I love the theory in general, but I do feel like the groupings need to be more... varied. The thing that irks me about something "symmetrical" like this is that it strips Adonalsium of personality I guess? If every aspect of Adonalsium has an opposite then it seems like they would be one giant can't-do-anything Sazed. It would seem like there's no life to the being.

I wish I was more versed in mythology because I feel like their connection to the creation of life is important. The question I wonder is "what would a God consider important aspects of life?" If Adonalsium is creating life, what Commands would they give to make it be the kind of life they want it to be?

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13 minutes ago, Jofwu said:

I love the theory in general, but I do feel like the groupings need to be more... varied. The thing that irks me about something "symmetrical" like this is that it strips Adonalsium of personality I guess? If every aspect of Adonalsium has an opposite then it seems like they would be one giant can't-do-anything Sazed. It would seem like there's no life to the being.

Spoiler

My interpretation of why Sazed is slowly becoming stagnant is that the Intents of the Shards are overwhelming his decidedly human... consciousness? 

(Spoiler for Mistborn)

If whatever consciousness that inhabited Adonalsium was... strong(?) enough to resist the Intents, then the stagnation would not occur. 

Basically, my thought is that mortals are too weak to harness the power of the Shards and, instead, end up consumed by the Intent. A being of sufficient strength/will/fortitude would be able to harness the Intent(s) to do what they wanted. Maybe. Or so I theorize. 

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I am not sold on Destruction being a category of 4 Shards. 

I feel like Change would include Ruin and Cultivation. Dying is a change, growing old and falling apart is a change. Having 4 limbs, then losing one is a change. Then regrowing the arm back is a change. 

It’s hard to come up with 3 more Destruction Shards whose concepts aren’t already incorporated in Ruin. 

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Like all the other names, Destruction is... too simplistic of a term. If I think of it as a more nebulous "something into nothing", then I can actually fit Odium in there as well - with the whole Void thing going on, emptying oneself of emotion. 

@Jofwu, I think this would address some of your concerns as well. The names I've chosen are kind of simple and generic, but I think their sum describes everything that can happen with stuff, which I think is important when it comes to coming up with ideas for the Dawnshards. I don't think this requires the Shards to be... balanced in any way, at least no more than the universe needs to be balanced. I also don't think that the four Dawnshards make up Adonalsium, only that express his (?) will when it came to the ordering of the universe - things needed to be created, other things needed to end, things need to be able to change, and... I guess things don't need to be always changing? 

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So my first thoughts on the other Commands were similar but none of them would seem to fit with the emotional Intents like Honor or Odium.

I ended up circling back to my initial impression of the mural being strikingly similar to the allomancy table; what if we're dealing with something similar where there's internal external pushing and pulling pairs here? Something like Change generating Ruin (reduction of something else), Cultivation (growth something else), Preservation (reduction of yourself), and Ambition (growth of yourself).

I know Preservation feels a bit off there as it's not really reduction but the lack of change, but I think the overall concept is sound and seems to fit Brandon's style better than what would basically be four super Intents.

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14 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

I feel like Change would include Ruin and Cultivation. 

I would throw Endowment in there if anything just because of the new abilities Rysn seemed to have related to color and sound and taste. Which would bring up the question: are those things intrinsically tied to Endowment, or are they abilities that anyone highly invested enough experience?

If they are because Change is Endowment's group, what other abilities does she have that she doesn't know about? Can she burn metals?

Is Hoid trying to create a new Dawnshard to reforge Ado? Get invested with each shard and from each group and use them to become a 5th? One that encompasses the whole circle and when the Command is used, can either create a new version of Ado or re-bind the 16? 

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12 minutes ago, scottwo said:

I would throw Endowment in there if anything just because of the new abilities Rysn seemed to have related to color and sound and taste. Which would bring up the question: are those things intrinsically tied to Endowment, or are they abilities that anyone highly invested enough experience?

If they are because Change is Endowment's group, what other abilities does she have that she doesn't know about? Can she burn metals?

Is Hoid trying to create a new Dawnshard to reforge Ado? Get invested with each shard and from each group and use them to become a 5th? One that encompasses the whole circle and when the Command is used, can either create a new version of Ado or re-bind the 16? 

Definitely Endowment belongs in there. 

I also agree with @Argent that Hoid had the stasis one or the “STAY!” Dawnshard because that’s more of a command. 

Hoid must have been complicit or feel responsible for the Shattering. He was a Dawnshard and either directly gave it to one of the 16 or gave it up and one of them got it. Without his they couldn’t have done what they did. 

I am expecting him not to be trying to reform Adonalsium because it seems like that is what he’s doing and I expect a twist. It has to be related though, restoring something important to him that was lost with the Shattering. 

If the Dawnshards truly aren’t alive as Nikli says then I doubt he cares thaaaat much about the Dawnshard he used to have. Unless it is the one that Brandon said is unlike the others and the difference is it was alive. 
 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/226/#e4824

Edited by Child of Hodor
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In another thread, I mentioned how Rysn's Dawnshard has similarities to both Cultivation (though theme mostly) and Endowment (through some theme and through the manifestations she experiences at the end). Which ties in with the mural, that has sixteen Shards, four associated with each Dawnshard.

We've got three Shards associated with Roshar, and I suspect that each of them are tied to a different Dawnshard. My tack would be to use them as springboards for Dawnshards (or quadrants, as has been the long-maligned yet always popular theory), and to look kind of at the different kinds of spren. It actually brings me back towards the "conflict in literature" meme, but not about conflict, but how reality operates. You've got Nature (the Growth Dawnshard, which would have Endowment/Cultivation/Ruin/Preservation), you've got Emotion (Odium/Devotion/hypothetical-Wisdom-Prudence-what-have-you), you've got Civilization (Honor/Ambition/Dominion/maybe-even-Ingenuity), and you've got Religion (Autonomy). All essential aspects of creation; you need a world, you need it inhabited by actual people, those people need to talk to each other, and those people need to talk to God. And nothing is inherently negative, like Stasis or Destruction.

It would be nice to know exactly what all the Dawnshards did back in Dragonsteel. From the WoBs, we know that Hoid could still heal, so I'm actually guessing he had the same Dawnshard that Rysn now holds. The only other thing we know is microkinesis that lets you manipulate individual atoms, which really feels like Civilization to me; you've got to tame the natural order of things and manipulate it as you see fit.

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I feel like by simply commenting on this thread I am attempting to compete with Olympic athletes while I am on the high school JV team, as my cosmere knowledge is paltry compared to others, but here goes:

I think a big takeaway for me is that Hoid was a Dawnshard. And given that Dragonsteel occurred so long in the past (assuming that it is still mostly canon), and that Rysn is now currently a Dawnshard, there must be some mechanism for them to.. regenerate? To be reused again? 

And if that is true, why does Honor appear to say in Dalinar’s visions that the Dawnshards are lost? These appear to be two conflicting ideas, and we clearly do not have all the facts yet. I do not have any solutions, but this seems important to note. 

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@Pagerunner, I take two issues with this. One, while of these ideas for Dawnshards fit the Shards, I think the "springboard" approach is kind of backwards. I think that you are taking the most direct interpretation of each Shard, taking their common denominator, and turning that into a Dawnshard. Which is problematic to me because the Shards are much more than just "devotion" or "preservation", so deriving a common denominator is going to limit its scope. 

And Issue the Second, because I think that the Dawnshards are more fundamental than the Shards, I think we need to think of them in a way that allows for their sum to describe everything in existence, not just life. 

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You don’t think Unite is clearly a Command? Dalinar sees glowing words when he hears the way of kings being read by Jasnah. Odium may have thought he had killed a Dawnshard at some point.

Unite

Dominion

Honour

Devotion

Preservation. 

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I like the theory in theory but I don't think the current proposed dawnshards would suit what we know about the Cosmere.

Creation and destruction seem just variants of Change rather than their own unique properties. As well as that Stasis seems to merely be the absence of Change. The proposed three don't seem to be truly different ideas but just extensions of Change. As well as that I don't think Creation or Destruction are things needed for the reality of the Cosmere to function, Brandon has mentioned before that the Cosmere functions similar to our own world in that investure, matter and energy can not be created or destroyed but changed from one form to another. Change seems to cover that far more since that is what is actually happening, nothing is ever created or destroyed. (Even taking into account our own world there are arguements that nothing has ever been created or destroyed and I wouldn't be surprised if Brandon used those here for the Cosmere.)

I think the other Dawnshards would have to be other things entirely unrelated to Change but still fundamental to the world. For example Intellect could be one to explain the cognitive realm and the human experience in the Cosmere. The other two may be something also entirely fundamental but unrelated to those two as well. Another possible one could be connection, explaining the existence of that aspect of the Cosmere.

Though the theory I think may touch upon how the shard intents formed. From the original dawnshard comes one, followed by a perceived extreme at either end of positive or negative effect and then an absence of that trait. So taking that idea Change would bring us;

Change (unknown/maybe Cultivation?)

Creation (Cultivation/ maybe unknown?)

Destruction (Ruin)

Stasis (Preservation)

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3 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

You don’t think Unite is clearly a Command? Dalinar sees glowing words when he hears the way of kings being read by Jasnah. Odium may have thought he had killed a Dawnshard at some point.

Unite

Dominion

Honour

Devotion

Preservation. 

I think it might be true, though I doubt Preservation would be in that grouping.

In addition, an epigraph mentioned something like 'Using the Dawnshard, known to bind things voidish or mortal'. This seems like something a Unity Dawnshard would be capable of instead of one around Change.

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My proposition would be:

Change: improvement and growth

Shards: Cultivation, Endowment

Current holder: Rysn

Unity: unification of people, ideas, Shards etc.

Shards: Honor, Devotion, Dominion

Current holder: Dalinar

Passion: the will to fight and the ability to destroy

Shards: Odium, Ruin, Autonomy, Ambition

Current holder: possibly Rayse, who uses it to splinter other Shards

Survival: creating and protecting life. Possibly Hoid's Dawnshard

Shards: Preservation, Survival Shard

Current holder: my best guess would be the Survival Shard. Or maybe it's hidden on Vax

 

5 hours ago, Jaustin89 said:

I ended up circling back to my initial impression of the mural being strikingly similar to the allomancy table; what if we're dealing with something similar where there's internal external pushing and pulling pairs here? Something like Change generating Ruin (reduction of something else), Cultivation (growth something else), Preservation (reduction of yourself), and Ambition (growth of yourself).

Brandon's original plan for Scadrial was for the significant number to be four, not sixteen, so you might be onto something:

Quote

King of Herdaz

Roshar is themed around the number ten. Scadrial and the cosmere as a whole is themed around the number sixteen. Are there any other planets themed around certain numbers? And if so, where and what are they? Or Read and Find Out?

Brandon Sanderson

Read and Find Out for that, but yes, this is a thing that I wanted to do at the beginning of the Cosmere and really leaned into in a couple of them. Honestly, with Mistborn, sixteen became the thing, but I was planning to lean into four more than sixteen for that series. But then sixteen became so important to the whole cosmere, and I wasn't sure... let's just say, four is where I was gonna go with that one.

But yes, there are others. Whether I'll actually really lean into them or not remains to be seen. But yes, I have plans.

YouTube Livestream 13 (July 23, 2020)

 

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I’m fairly sure Dalinar holds at least part of UNITE or BIND.I think he might be getting bits of it via Nohadon (when Jasnah reads the way of Kings at her father’s funeral day, Dalinar was seeing the words glow in a similar way). And also, Nohadon is clearly not fully dead for some reason...

 

Theory: Odium thought they had killed the BIND/UNITE command and Honour thought it lost as well; however, it can be united somehow and Dalinar is ascending to it. 
 

It is not unreasonable to assume at least two Dawnshards on Roshar as Honour says “without the DawnshardS” 

Edited by teknopathetic
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6 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Passion: the will to fight and the ability to destroy

Shards: Odium, Ruin, Autonomy, Ambition

 

I think you're really onto something with Passion and didn't think of it. Brandon confirmed that there was a significance to the way Odium and Ruin spoke about Passion and he confirmed that there would be Shards who did not refer to it that way.

Edit: Found the WoB

Quote

Valhalla

Ruin and Odium, they both talked about their passion, and it was italicized both times. Would any other Shards talk about passion in that same italicized way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes they would.

Valhalla

Would any of them not talk about it that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Excellent, good questions.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

Edited by DracostarA
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7 hours ago, Argent said:

@Pagerunner, I take two issues with this. One, while of these ideas for Dawnshards fit the Shards, I think the "springboard" approach is kind of backwards. I think that you are taking the most direct interpretation of each Shard, taking their common denominator, and turning that into a Dawnshard. Which is problematic to me because the Shards are much more than just "devotion" or "preservation", so deriving a common denominator is going to limit its scope. 

And Issue the Second, because I think that the Dawnshards are more fundamental than the Shards, I think we need to think of them in a way that allows for their sum to describe everything in existence, not just life. 

For the first point, I don't see what is problematic about it. The mural indicates there is some form of commonality among sets of four Shards - Adonalsium, split into four, split into four more each. The Dawnshards aren't the the four; the Dawnshards are specific items/concepts/Investiture that guided the splits. The Shards, together, are the summation of Adonalsium; the Dawnshards are tools that accomplish ends. The commonalities between the infinity of the Shards are the clues to reverse-engineer what the Dawnshards were that divided them (not that created them). And, while one data point does not define a trend, that is what we can see with the single Dawnshard we know about. Change does seem very much like Cultivation, but the concept of Cultivation gains more depth in the destruction required and in the intentions behind it. But the concept of Change can also be further specified and refined to Endowment or Ruin (although it's possible to make quite a variety of cases, similar to how various characters can be argued to the path for multiple Orders of Radiant); Change isn't limited by Cultivation, it's the starting point to take Cultivation from God. We need to start at the Shards and work backwards; not because the Dawnshards are created from the Shards, but because the Shards are the only tangible influence we can see to the Dawnshards' nature.

For the second point, I think you've got it backwards. The Dawnshards need to describe life, not just everything in existence. The universe is more than just somethings; you've got the immaterial, you've got the social, the emotional, the spiritual. The existence of the Cognitive Realm shows that the fundamental fabric of the cosmere requires minds to observe it; and the Spiritual Realm holds Connections between people and all the things, material and immaterial, that influence and determine their natures. Intelligent life is not just a part of the cosmere; the cosmere exists for the purpose of developing intelligent life.

To look at it from another way, the Dawnshards are fundamental elements of the human (and singer and dragon and sho del etc.) existence. There are views of the physical world that have fundamental elements: the four classical Elements, or the Rosharan ten elements and ten Surges. The Dawnshards you've proposed seem, to me, to be a different take on a similar theme; what does the world require. But I'm saying the world we live in is only one part of our experience, and the Dawnshards will reflect the rest of that. The fundamental elements of creation are more like Physical, Social, Emotional, and Spiritual.

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2 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

My proposition would be:

Change: improvement and growth

Shards: Cultivation, Endowment

Current holder: Rysn

Unity: unification of people, ideas, Shards etc.

Shards: Honor, Devotion, Dominion

Current holder: Dalinar

Passion: the will to fight and the ability to destroy

Shards: Odium, Ruin, Autonomy, Ambition

Current holder: possibly Rayse, who uses it to splinter other Shards

Survival: creating and protecting life. Possibly Hoid's Dawnshard

Shards: Preservation, Survival Shard

Current holder: my best guess would be the Survival Shard. Or maybe it's hidden on Vax

 

Brandon's original plan for Scadrial was for the significant number to be four, not sixteen, so you might be onto something:

 

52 minutes ago, DracostarA said:

I think you're really onto something with Passion and didn't think of it. Dalinar confirmed that there was a significance to the way Odium and Ruin spoke about Passion and he confirmed that there would be Shards who did not refer to it that way.

The Unity and Passion shard groupings makes sense. Passion can't be the name though. "The Dawnshards are Commands, Rysn." Nikli in DS ch. 19.  Passion isn't a command. That doesn't invalidate this grouping though. 

Fortune and Passion are two ideas that get the capital letter treatment from Odium. Odium mentions Fortune with a capital F to Taravangian. "Destiny" get mentioned in the Hemalurgy table, which could be a different word for Fortune and whoever wrote the table didn't know others in the Cosmere call it Fortune. None of these sound like Dawnshards though, if Nikli is correct that all 4 are commands and we have no evidence to the contrary. Fortune, Destiny and possibly Passion may be forces that permeate the Cosmere and people can tap into them with the right magic. 

I could see Ruin Change category shard. Sometimes you have to break a bone to set it straight, slice into someone to alter their health for good or ill. The death of a person or a planet exploding is a change to the state of that matter. 

UNITE fits as a Dawnshard title. I'm not sold on Dalinar already being it, but it's possible. I won't write it here, but I gave my reason in 2 comments in another thread.  

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/92890-could-dalinar-be-a-dawnshard/?do=findComment&comment=1108541

https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/92890-could-dalinar-be-a-dawnshard/?do=findComment&comment=1108554

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8 hours ago, scottwo said:

 

Is Hoid trying to create a new Dawnshard to reforge Ado? Get invested with each shard and from each group and use them to become a 5th? One that encompasses the whole circle and when the Command is used, can either create a new version of Ado or re-bind the 16? 

Oh no... I don’t want a Hoid vs Rysn showdown. What happens if Hoid finds out about her? The Sleepless were able to “see” that Rysn was a Dawnshard (with some squinting), so is it possible Hoid could detect her as well? 

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One thing is that these are Commands and not Shards, so the naming conventions need to be different. Passion doesn’t work as that term isn’t a command. These titles need to be more like verbs.  
 

Bind/Unite works

Change works  

Passion is not a command/verb and neither is survival. We could say Feel and Survive maybe, that those done feel basic enough for my tastes. 

Edited by teknopathetic
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11 hours ago, Argent said:

So. Big news, huh? 

Instead of writing several pages, I am just going with what I think - some of which is inspired by people like @Windrunner's ideas.

I think the four Dawnshards are:

  • Creation - something from nothing
  • Destruction - something into nothing
  • Change - something into something else
  • Statis  - something... and then still something

Brandon just dropped an annotation for this book, and apparently Hoid was a Dawnshard at one point (!). His immortality seems consistent with the Statis Dawnshard. Rysn's is obviously Change.

Also, I think of the Dawnshards as kind of proto-Shards or pseudo-Shards, and during the Shattered of Adonalsium, the resulting 16 Shards were somehow influenced by the Dawnshards, resulting in the Intents we (mostly) now know.

Okay, I am done, back to freaking out!

I'm not sure about the Destruction part and possibly the Creation as well since:

" The four primal Commands that created all things "

Created all things. It could mean that only creation base stuff only. Ruin and other 'destructive' Shards fall unto Change I think or something similar Command.

 

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