Necessary Eagle

About that hypothetical trans Radiant

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R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

I've been wondering how exactly that would go over in modern Alethkar, especially among lighteyes. I mean, they've got such strict gender roles they don't even eat the same food. Imagine previously-unremarkable Brightlord So-and-so, vaguely recall seeing him at a party once, I think he's maybe from Vamah?-- bonds a Cryptic and "his" first truth is "I am a woman." Suck in some Stormlight, and voila, Brightlady! Not just female-identifying or female-presenting, but actually biologically female. Even the most hidebound Vorin can't explain that away. I keep trying to imagine how things play out from there both for Brightlady So-and-so and the people around her.

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Hmmm. This would definitely be interesting. Hehe. :lol: I’d love to see how this would play out. In fact, I’m visualizing it in my head right now. 
“Hey. . . How does that even work?”

”What do you mean?”

”You can’t just become a woman.”

“I can. And I just did. Also, if I feel like I’m a woman, then what’s the problem?”

“It’s. . . Just not right.” 
Yeah, it definitely would be interesting. Especially with the Alethi. And, well; all of Roshar. I just hope they would realize (like we are just finally starting to) that mistreating people because of who they are is wrong.  

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I think it'll depend on the time period. 

If we're talking about post-everstorm, I think the fact that this woman is a Radiant and due to the current needs of the world will override Alethi social conventions. We sort of see it with Azure taking command of Kholinar's wall - despite how "un-womanly" it is for a female to fight, nevermind lead the army. 

If we're talking about pre-everstorm, I don't think people will believe her, unless they witness the change first hand. As in, because the change is so perfect, they'd probably assume said Brightlord has gone missing, and a previous unaccounted for twin sister is either making a political play for power or have gone crazy from grief. Recall, they didn't really believe in Radiant abilities at this point. 

I'd suspect class would affect the reactions too. There's a lot of pressure/expectation for high ranking bright-eyes, and I suspect we'd see this "fact" used relentlessly against her in court to discredit her and her family (similar to Dalinar). Although life is rarely better for dark-eyes, I have a feeling it'd be easier for them to get away from it all. At worst, a dark-eyes will probably be made a social pariah, completely ignored (people thinking they're crazy). 

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If a person is gender-fluid, wouldn't they change multiple times?

 

Edited by Aspiring Writer
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8 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

If a person is gender-fluid, wouldn't they change multiple times?

 

Only if they used stormlight regularly

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To the OP’s question. Based on what I’ve seen so far in SA.

I think the biggest hurdle would be the identity of the individual in question. I have read somewhere that if a person were to see their Self walking down the street, they wouldn’t recognize their Self because our perception of our own appearance is incongruent with others perception of our appearance.

So, if our Perfect Spiritual Identity were suddenly the reality (not just Trans/Fluid, but any individual) would we be recognizable?

Let’s say that someone named Devi were to turn up one day and declare themselves by Identity as a different Gender. There may be a general resemblance that could suggest familial relation, but proving Identity and resolving Gender would probably happen at the same time. 
 

As Roshar has seen a TON major upheaval in a very short time, if Identity can be confirmed, I doubt Gender would be questioned too much further.

Edited by IllNsickly
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On 11/5/2020 at 10:03 PM, Topgoon said:

I think it'll depend on the time period. 

If we're talking about post-everstorm, I think the fact that this woman is a Radiant and due to the current needs of the world will override Alethi social conventions. We sort of see it with Azure taking command of Kholinar's wall - despite how "un-womanly" it is for a female to fight, nevermind lead the army. 

If we're talking about pre-everstorm, I don't think people will believe her, unless they witness the change first hand. As in, because the change is so perfect, they'd probably assume said Brightlord has gone missing, and a previous unaccounted for twin sister is either making a political play for power or have gone crazy from grief. Recall, they didn't really believe in Radiant abilities at this point. 

I'd suspect class would affect the reactions too. There's a lot of pressure/expectation for high ranking bright-eyes, and I suspect we'd see this "fact" used relentlessly against her in court to discredit her and her family (similar to Dalinar). Although life is rarely better for dark-eyes, I have a feeling it'd be easier for them to get away from it all. At worst, a dark-eyes will probably be made a social pariah, completely ignored (people thinking they're crazy). 

The Azish already did this prior to the everstorm. If you were in a homosexual relationship, you would file paperwork, and be "termed" female. So add the capability to change the physicality and you are just one form away from full transition. 

As to the actual function, my theory is it is not a morphing while holding stormlight. You have to "heal back" to your ideal self. So my theory at least, is you would need to be injured, or undergo surgery, and when you took in stormlight, your body would heal back to what your ideal self would be. So gender reassignment surgery that upon taking in stormlight, would result in fully healed and functioning organs. 

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On 11/7/2020 at 9:19 PM, Aspiring Writer said:

If a person is gender-fluid, wouldn't they change multiple times?

 

Gender fluid isn't like having multiple personalities. You still have a single perception of who you are, it just isn't clearly male or female.

Edited by Leuthie
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24 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

Gender fluid isn't like having multiple personalities. You still have a single perception of who you are, it just isn't clearly male or female.

I know it's not multiple personalities, but from how my friend explained it, how they perceive themselves can change.

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18 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I know it's not multiple personalities, but from how my friend explained it, how they perceive themselves can change.

While that is true, I don't know if that would change abruptly and in such a significant way their "Identity" which seems to me more like some sort of slow changing metaphysical substance. I mean, just as in, when there is a big change in the physical realm, it takes a long period of time for the cognitive to adapt to that (in a WoB they put the example of the Boston shore), stated in, more or less, 10 to 15 years to experiment such a change.

Of course, one's Identity doesn't have to apply exactly to those rules, since people are a much more changing thing than dirt or water, but I'd expect the Identity of a genderfluid person to kind of stay the same, with little changes in small periods of time, maybe matching some sort of tendency in a more extended period of time.

I don't konw if that makes sense to you (I mean, English is not my first language and I might be making some mistakes at how I'm righting this), but that's how i percieve it at the moment.

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5 minutes ago, CosmereComrade said:

While that is true, I don't know if that would change abruptly and in such a significant way their "Identity" which seems to me more like some sort of slow changing metaphysical substance. I mean, just as in, when there is a big change in the physical realm, it takes a long period of time for the cognitive to adapt to that (in a WoB they put the example of the Boston shore), stated in, more or less, 10 to 15 years to experiment such a change.

Of course, one's Identity doesn't have to apply exactly to those rules, since people are a much more changing thing than dirt or water, but I'd expect the Identity of a genderfluid person to kind of stay the same, with little changes in small periods of time, maybe matching some sort of tendency in a more extended period of time.

I don't konw if that makes sense to you (I mean, English is not my first language and I might be making some mistakes at how I'm righting this), but that's how i percieve it at the moment.

From what I heard, genderfluids can change how they perceive themselves in as little as a few weeks and a month to as long as years, so I assumed that would be the same for identity when it comes to the magic system. 

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On 09/11/2020 at 9:41 AM, IllNsickly said:

To the OP’s question. Based on what I’ve seen so far in SA.

I think the biggest hurdle would be the identity of the individual in question. I have read somewhere that if a person were to see their Self walking down the street, they wouldn’t recognize their Self because our perception of our own appearance is incongruent with others perception of our appearance.

So, if our Perfect Spiritual Identity were suddenly the reality (not just Trans/Fluid, but any individual) would we be recognizable?

Let’s say that someone named Devi were to turn up one day and declare themselves by Identity as a different Gender. There may be a general resemblance that could suggest familial relation, but proving Identity and resolving Gender would probably happen at the same time. 
 

As Roshar has seen a TON major upheaval in a very short time, if Identity can be confirmed, I doubt Gender would be questioned too much further.

I mean it depends a whole lot on what gender even is and how it is expressed in Realmatic terms. 
Also, someone's ideal version of themselves might not actually be recognisable post-transition like this. Its not like (how explicit can I be here) certain body parts change and everything else remains the same. Things like face shape, shoulder width, height could also change.

The big question really, is how do various societies across Roshar treat trans people, before you bring stormlight and radiance into the picture. Thats the first information we need to make post-Everstorm theories. 

On 10/11/2020 at 4:39 AM, Pathfinder said:

The Azish already did this prior to the everstorm. If you were in a homosexual relationship, you would file paperwork, and be "termed" female. So add the capability to change the physicality and you are just one form away from full transition. 

As to the actual function, my theory is it is not a morphing while holding stormlight. You have to "heal back" to your ideal self. So my theory at least, is you would need to be injured, or undergo surgery, and when you took in stormlight, your body would heal back to what your ideal self would be. So gender reassignment surgery that upon taking in stormlight, would result in fully healed and functioning organs. 

Is that in canon, about filing paperwork like that?

If someone is not their ideal self, ie they have a physical injury, they will heal back to their ideal self upon contact with Stormlight. If someone is not their ideal self, ie their sense of gender does not match their body, they should also heal to their ideal self upon contact with Stormlight.  I dont see why physical injury would be necessary to heal. Surgery shouldn't be necessary at all.

On 10/11/2020 at 8:32 AM, Leuthie said:

Gender fluid isn't like having multiple personalities. You still have a single perception of who you are, it just isn't clearly male or female.

 

On 10/11/2020 at 9:22 AM, CosmereComrade said:

While that is true, I don't know if that would change abruptly and in such a significant way their "Identity" which seems to me more like some sort of slow changing metaphysical substance. I mean, just as in, when there is a big change in the physical realm, it takes a long period of time for the cognitive to adapt to that (in a WoB they put the example of the Boston shore), stated in, more or less, 10 to 15 years to experiment such a change.

Of course, one's Identity doesn't have to apply exactly to those rules, since people are a much more changing thing than dirt or water, but I'd expect the Identity of a genderfluid person to kind of stay the same, with little changes in small periods of time, maybe matching some sort of tendency in a more extended period of time.

I don't konw if that makes sense to you (I mean, English is not my first language and I might be making some mistakes at how I'm righting this), but that's how i percieve it at the moment.

Its not multiple personalities, or alters,  but the term genderfluid specifically means one's sense of gender changes. Some people will have girl days and boy days. Some people will have glamour fae and bog cryptid days. Some people's gender fluids* over a longer period of time, months or years. Its different for everyone. 

A person with one gender that isnt male or female is more like non-binary, or genderqueer. The 'fluid' bit means that it does change.  

*Using this word as a verb cause I dont have a better one. 

On 10/11/2020 at 9:28 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

From what I heard, genderfluids can change how they perceive themselves in as little as a few weeks and a month to as long as years, so I assumed that would be the same for identity when it comes to the magic system. 

*genderfluid people. Its a descriptor not a noun :)

 

Id be super on board for Stormlight adjusting to fluid gender every time you breathe it in. That would be super rad. 

 

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On 11/25/2020 at 11:41 AM, Delightful said:

Is that in canon, about filing paperwork like that?

The "paperwork for gay couples" part is mentioned in Sigzil's chapter in OB. The details (such as they are) are WoB.

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