RoW Chapter 18 Discussion

[SpeakoftheDeval]

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I am referring specifically to this quote:

 

  Hide contents

"I’ve avoided talking too much about Jasnah as a general rule, since I plan her to be a major (perhaps the major) character of the back five books, and so it’s best to keep focus off her for now. There will be plenty of time for discussions about her later."

 

I really don't see how she could no longer be involved in Roshar and the quote from Brandon still be true. So either Jasnah leaves and Brandon is lying, or Jasnah sticks around, and what Brandon says is accurate. I lean towards Brandon. So I do not think what you suggest is likely. But to each their own. 

Maybe she leaves in the gap between the two halves and comes back later, maybe parts of the back half are set off planet, there's a number of ways to get around it. I'm not saying I think it's likely that she will become a worldhopper or that's when she's gonna leave, but it's a possibility.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Maybe she leaves in the gap between the two halves and comes back later, maybe parts of the back half are set off planet, there's a number of ways to get around it. I'm not saying I think it's likely that she will become a worldhopper or that's when she's gonna leave, but it's a possibility.

I dunno, still seems a stretch to me. You argued that the backlash you feel is required is going to happen in this book. So there is going to be this rebellion to kick her off and then they are going to just stop and twiddle their thumbs for 10 years? That doesn't make sense to me.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Chana]

It shouldn't be, but it was still very surprising to me how much Kaladin is worried about his dad's approval. It seemed so strange for Kaladin who usually doesn't really care about anyones opinion and rather finds people annoying, to jump so much around his father. There are clearly some issues here which I hope they resolve in part 2. I didn't mind Kaladin returning to being a surgeon but the way it happened made me sad. It was almost too familiar, just going along with his controlling parent just because he is so lost. It was just so striking to me how differently he reacts to his father compared to anyone else. He had to deal with a lot of expectations and people giving him positions and he would usually accept them but he would always complain and stuff and this one was just so.. passive on his part. He seems to revert to being a young boy again and I hope he will soon realise that he is no longer that boy and that he needs to grow. This is certainly going to be one of the more interesting dynamics and subplot of the part two.

[SpeakoftheDeval]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I dunno, still seems a stretch to me. You argued that the backlash you feel is required is going to happen in this book. So there is going to be this rebellion to kick her off and then they are going to just stop and twiddle their thumbs for 10 years? That doesn't make sense to me.

No I don't think it necessarily has to come to a boil in this book- it very well might not happen in the next book either. But the moment people decide a) Jasnahs planning for this to be permanent, b ) Odiums forces aren't an immediate pressing threat, discontent will grow. 

 

I don't know what you mean by twiddle their thumbs- they can get rid of Jasnah at some point, she immediately spends part of the ten years worldhopping while the political situation stabilises in Alethkar and then is induced to come back for the back 5. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Until this chapter I hadn't been enjoying Row very much, it was shaping up to be my least favorite SLA book. But this chapter was SO GOOD! 

I think the first 17 chapters suffered a bit from the after the fact wrap up of the phantom book that never was that occurred during the time skip after OB. The revelations (though small) in this chapter were natural and folded into the narrative, and it was nice to see again how incredibly sweet and thoughtful Kaladin is. I was getting nervous just like Kal, waiting to see what Lirin's reaction to their new quarters and his new surgery setup would be. And I got a little choked up when the smile finally broke on Lirin's face. 

The banter between Lirin, Hessina, Kal and Syl was prosaic and adorable. And I really like how the chapter opened with Kal thinking about Rock looking at the mountains and the snow. Sheesh, what a romantic. 

I think that the preview chapters were harder to read this time around because  the RoW cliffhangers are more emotional and character driven, while the cliffhangers in OB were more action oriented. I think these chapters would probably work really well, reading them like a normal storm light book. Continously, back to back, stopping only to go to the bathroom and very occasionally when the stomach grumbling gets too loud to fix something quick to eat that can be ingested while still reading. Sleep, not until it's finished. Journey before Somnulation. 

This chapter has gotten me super excited for November 17th!!! 

Edited November 3, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Rai]

I still think the previous chapters were perfect, actually - this is my favourite Part 1 of any of the Stormlight books so far, to be honest, I love how fast the pacing has been and how things have changed in the last year! But that's totally fair.

I'm just nervous about when the bubble will finally pop for Lirin, because it has to eventually... he still is so totally oblivious to Kaladin's mental state. Not that Kal wants either of his parents to clue in anyways, given what he says in this chapter about not wanting his parents to know what he's been through... 

Definitely super excited for the next chapter though! I can't believe it's only two weeks now till the book's release. 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Rai

[FollowYourMuse]

3 hours ago, Nathrangking said:

This actually makes a lot of sense @Weux082690. Because Urithiru is a literal fortress and the seat of the Knights Radiant it would need advanced defenses to frustrate invaders. If the Sibling is like the brain of Urithiru then its going to sleep would result in what we have now. The dead ends could even serve other purposes like perhaps hiding rooms that a bondsmith or stoneward would be able to access, but not other KR. 

I agree much could have been, defenses also could have been changed by the Radiant's, and also we know the Sibling had been withdrawing and much of the unfinished or closed up rooms may have been from that time too. 

 

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by FollowYourMuse

[mariapapadia]

I haven't looked through all these replies, but I have to say one thing. As an architect tired of arguing with MEP engineers to move air ducts & rust pipes, reading about my boy Kal critisizing the placement of a ventilation duct made me squick with joy  I FEEL YOU KAL, I FEEL YOU!  

Quote

He ducked under a strange outcropping of stone in the hallway. Urithiru had numerous such oddities; this one was round, a stone tube crossing the center of the hallway. Perhaps it was ventilation? Why had it been put right where people walked?

 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

No I don't think it necessarily has to come to a boil in this book- it very well might not happen in the next book either. But the moment people decide a) Jasnahs planning for this to be permanent, b ) Odiums forces aren't an immediate pressing threat, discontent will grow. 

 

I don't know what you mean by twiddle their thumbs- they can get rid of Jasnah at some point, she immediately spends part of the ten years worldhopping while the political situation stabilises in Alethkar and then is induced to come back for the back 5. 

Honestly for myself that makes even less sense in light of the Brandon quote.

So now the rebellion against jasnah freeing slaves is going to be a slow burn till the last book, at which point jasnah goes "yall suck, im out". Leaves the planet. And then 10 years later just decides to come back? That make absolutely no sense for what i understand the character jasnah to be. 

You are certainly entitled to interpret her however you wish, but i just really dont see that happening. 

[jamskinner]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

*spits out water*

A metal that conducts Stormlight?! Hmm... could it be Nicrosil?

Pressure differential, huh. That does make some sense but I didn't expect Investiture to behave this way, maybe under certain conditions or if it's free Investiture? I'm thinking Stormlight (as it's crucial to the ecosystem of Roshar and that shapes how it behaves) and the Dor (simply because it's pressurized) but the Mists don't behave that way (not entering houses) but Preservation's power leaking through the Spiritual via metals seems to

Maybe like electricity. 

[Rainier]

1 hour ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Continously, back to back, stopping only to go to the bathroom and very occasionally when the stomach grumbling gets too loud to fix something quick to eat that can be ingested while still reading. Sleep, not until it's finished.

You are speaking my language. You start the book, you read the book, you finish the book. Then and only then do you go do other things, like sleep, or look up. 

[+Child of Hodor]

7 hours ago, Honorless said:

*spits out water*

A metal that conducts Stormlight?! Hmm... could it be Nicrosil?

That would be good. My first thought was of the Jezrien-killing knife because that sucked out his investiture and stored it in a gem similar to how the spears suck out stormlight from Radiants and fill gems. Jezrien being a cognitive shadow it killed him permanently or trapped his soul in a gem or whatever. 

That knife is made of a white-gold metal which I assume is Odium's god metal. I would think it is the same material being used by the Fused, but don't know that. 

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Vyre's_knife

That knife seems like a deliberate nod to the Blinding Knife in Brent Week's Lightbringer Series. That also sucks magic out of people and fills up gems with it. 

[Subvisual Haze]

My God, Urithiru is an EVA and the gemstone pillar in the basement is the entry plug.

[Isilel]

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Is it just me that was made really uncomfortable by the whole Jasnah unilaterally changing inheritance laws? 

How do you know that it was unilaterally? For that matter, we don't even know what exact changes were made. If it is just along the lines of "a daughter inherits in the absence of sons", the highprinces and lords may have been all for it, since people typically want their own offspring to inherit. Women were usually excluded because of the belief that they wouldn't be able to hold on to property anyway, but female Radiants are disproving that line of thought. It is not those who already (theoretically) hold land  who are going to be disgruntled by the change, but those who aspire to gain it by the virtue of being light-eyed males. But then, the Radiants already make them less important and kick them down the rank ladder. So, a certain amount of unrest would have been inevitable even if nothing was done.

 

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Im a lot less excited about this state centric, Whiggish history of things can only ever get better and all you need is a ruler with a brain and boom society is Fixed. 

Ruler with a brain is certainly preferrable to the alternative. And they could historically fix some things some of the time.

 

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

With the extreme level of changes Jasnah is autocratically decreeing, I can't help but think that she's a terrible queen and will soon be sidelined, discrediting her policies for possibly centuries afterwards. Even Catherine the Great wasn't comfortable issuing such far ranging reforms and she's the model of the enlightened despot, and Alethkar doesnt have the absolutist tradition of Tsarist Russia. 

So, Catherine was a very capable woman, who formulated all of Dale Carnegie's insights and strategies in her autobiography. Seriously, it is a fascinating book where she of course depicted herself in the best possible light, but it is also incredibly interesting from the point of her  people management skills and principles, which she explains in detail. However, we can't forget that she was a woman, a foreigner and an usurper without a shred of legitimacy as a monarch in her own right in the 18th century Russia. And she was clear-eyed enough to understand her limitations. Which is why, while she knew that serfdom needed to be abolished, she couldn't afford to antagonize the gentry to do so.

 

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

And yeah I get that society is undergoing massive changes, but in times of crisis people tend to rally to the established order for some level of stability and societal changes are slow, each step is resisted by the established order and they require very broad bases of popular support. If jasnah can pull all of this off with just a bit of grumbling from the nobility, I just wouldn't be able to take any rosharan politics seriously. 

Societal changes are sometimes very fast indeed. It is fascinating to read the private diaries of Russian people spanning 1914 - 1920 and how they went from cheering the Tsar's family on the balcony of the Winter palace and sincerely admiring them to whole-heartedly getting on the world revolution bandwagon. Or look at the changes of religion - Christianization, then various Christian heresies/denominations. Ditto other religions. Sometimes the moment is there and profound changes happen extremely quickly. Biography of Byzantine Emperor Heraclios is very educational in this sense.

All in all autocratic rulers can make changes that stick, if they are lucky enough to catch the right moment and manage various interests correctly. Joseph I failed at that. In fact, he wanted his epitaph to be: "Here lies Joseph I, who failed at all he undertook", only his family wouldn't allow it, so he failed even at that . But Henry VIII of England, for instance, successfully changed his country in profound ways. Not out of desire for common good, alas.

 

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

 At least the Parshmen would let them keep their slaves, maintain their traditions and essentially what rudimentary political constitution they have, in terms of the vague sense of "proper behaviours and laws".

Says who? There was zero indication of anything of the sort so far. In fact, Odium bargained quite hard with Taravangian, who had much more to offer, and only gave him a pittance.

 

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

What's the point of fighting for a queen who given her track record is set to erase any recognition that you're better than a darkeyes?

So as not to become a slave of the parshmen yourself? At best, that is, if they don't just decide to exterminate you. Also, the Radiants are upending the hierarchy, but everybody has a small chance to become one.

 

3 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

And it's not like collective action wouldn't be possible either, given most nobles are in or around the shattered plains/ urithiru. They could easily form a diet to limit royal authority even if theyre individually too small to secede. 

IIRC they don't actually control any land or anything - how would they exert any pressure?

 

2 hours ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

 Is it really satisfying if the Kholins just face no consequences for their actions?

It needs to be made clear why they can get away with their changes, sure. And there needs to be to be pushback. But not changing things is not an option from purely practical point of view. Extending human slavery to replace lost parshmen would be just creating a Fifth Column for Odium to exploit to devastating effect, as well as pushing away the Radiants who hail from these circumstances - like most current Windrunners. This needs to be prevented and the best way to do so is to abolish all slavery.

Given that heavy losses are expected, like in any Desolation, allowing women to inherit allows for smoother transition of authority.

Concerning Gavinor - actually, in OB we have been told that the traditional approach during the trying times is to pass over a minor heir and appoint an adult, since regency is deemed insufficient. As happened with Amaram becoming Highprince Sadeas, despite the existence of a young nephew. So no, Gavinor getting crowned as a child wouldn't be expected. Maybe once he reaches his majority, but even that is unclear. I'd also like to remind you that  traditionalists had nothing against Ialai becoming Highprince Sadeas and eventually even Queen, as evidenced by the Sons of Honor support of her. Apparently, the views are already shifting on the subject.

 

1 hour ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Military power is in dalinars hands for now, but it's not like his subordinates won't disobey him to restore the proper, religious government if they think he's a real long term threat to it. 

Religions change. Dalinar and the Radiants are their only hope to win this war and regain their country.

 

1 hour ago, SpeakoftheDeval said:

Even if a majority don't disagree in theory, which I can't imagine is the case, the rich and powerful who likely own many slaves along with their land would definitely hate this intrusion into their power and wealth, and as they're the ones with power it's their opinion that matters. 

Nobody owns many human slaves yet. They were always a small minority and far less valuable and desirable than parshmen. Which is why this is the time to nip it in the bud.

 

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

 I had similar concerns about the off the cuff proposal to ban slavery and got called a slavery apologist for my troubles. Apparently suggestions that maybe Roshar should have different values than Earth,

It may be about values to Jasnah, but there are eminently practical reasons to ban slavery which I pointed out above.

 

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

If I'm Gawx, I'm keeping her at arm's reach. If I'm one on the Makabaki Kings, I want to stay away from her unless I'm ready to be conquered by Alethkar. 

Why do you present Makabaki kingdoms and Empire of Azir as staunch defenders of human slavery?! As far as we know they never had it and are going to approve of it's ban among the Alethi.

 

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

 The reason why the USA struggled with slavery is because it was founded on the premise that all men are created equal.

You do realise that one of the less attractive reasons for the American Revolution was the fear of growing abolutionist movement in Great Britain? And that indeed slavery was banned there and in the British colonies earlier than in the US and that the royal navy henceforth fought to stop slave trade? One demonstrably  didn't need to share the premise of all men being created equal to be against slavery. And in fact, many, if not most opposed it for practical and political, rather than idealistic reasons. Which is applicable to SA.

 

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

Alethkar, and Vorinism, has no such founding ideal. It is completely hierarchical, and I don't doubt that many think slavery is just and natural, just as some people are lighteyed and darkeyed, and some are high dahn and low dahn, some are kings and some are slaves. That's just how life works on Roshar.

But the Radiants throw the hierarchy off-kilter. A slave can become a shardbearer and a super-hero and dozens already did. They also now know that light-eyed people are merely the descendants of Radiants and of those who managed to grab a dead shardblade. Their "divine right to rule" has been thoroughly undermined. It would be unreasonable not to expect a fallout from that.

[Subvisual Haze]

Lirin wants to protect Kaladin from the world, he thinks he knows best how Kaladin should live (as a surgeon, staying away from combat) to be safe.  In time Kaladin will chafe under this role though, this is how Lirin wants his life to play out, not necessarily what is best for him.  Protecting another shouldn't smother them, you have to be willing to let others live their own lives, honor their autonomy to make choices and accept consequences.  This parallels the difficulties that Kaladin is having regarding Rock especially (but also the other Windrunners). He wants to protect Rock, but finds it difficult to accept the choices that Rock has made regarding facing judgement.

4th oath will be some variant on letting go and allowing others to live their own lives (the anti-helicopter parenting oath)

[Lemiltock]

I would just like to add to @Isilel incredible post, when in the history of humanity have we faced a litteral god using magic trying to destroy the world, so some suspension of disbelief needs to be applied. When your only hope are the radients of which Jasnah, Dalinar and Kaladin (a darkeyes with slavebrands) are all leaders then they have significant power to change things.

Also there has been a one year time gap its not like Jasnah, a women, became queen and said women are now better because I said so. She is also a very logical person, hence it make sense that she would see holding someone back based on gender to be stupid, afterall doesnt Jasnah think she is the most capable person in the world and she is infact a women.

[Raphaborn]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Lirin wants to protect Kaladin from the world, he thinks he knows best how Kaladin should live (as a surgeon, staying away from combat) to be safe.  In time Kaladin will chafe under this role though, this is how Lirin wants his life to play out, not necessarily what is best for him.  Protecting another shouldn't smother them, you have to be willing to let others live their own lives, honor their autonomy to make choices and accept consequences.  This parallels the difficulties that Kaladin is having regarding Rock especially (but also the other Windrunners). He wants to protect Rock, but finds it difficult to accept the choices that Rock has made regarding facing judgement.

4th oath will be some variant on letting go and allowing others to live their own lives (the anti-helicopter parenting oath)

Yes, Lirin is a good person but he often fails with Kal.
I think Brandon's message is that you don't have to be crazy, evil or something in the middle like Lin to harm your child. Good parents can have serious flaws.
I have high hopes for these new interactions between the two. It's like finally seeing the continuation of the dilemmas they had as a father and son in WoK. They both have a lot to learn.

[jamskinner]

9 hours ago, Pattern said:

Concerning that metal that is a conductor for stormlight: For me, Moash's dagger with which he killed Jezrien came to mind. That was yellowish or golden IIRC. What if it's Odium's godmetal (Rayseium?) - analogue to shardblades and honorblades essentially being Honor's godmetal?

Why not just copper?  It conducts electricity.  Maybe investiture is similar. 

[Gilphon]

3 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

Why not just copper?  It conducts electricity.  Maybe investiture is similar. 

Copper's the wrong colour. We know from Kaladin's POV the the conductor metal is a silvery colour.

[Isilel]

15 hours ago, Rainier said:

It's not just you. I had similar concerns about the off the cuff proposal to ban slavery and got called a slavery apologist for my troubles. Apparently suggestions that maybe Roshar should have different values than Earth, and that Alethkar should not have the same moral compunctions as the US makes you suspect.

Yea, so:

"In Archaic Greece, Solon of Athens took the unique measure to cancel all debts, abolish debt slavery, and bring back those individuals who had been sold abroad. For this innovation, he drew on the tradition of periodic debt remission and liberation of debt slaves by royal decree in the empires of ancient Mesopotamia, about which he may have heard during his travels in the East. His poems about his legal reforms also display striking similarities with Near Eastern, and specifically Neo-Assyrian, official memorials. In contrast to debt slavery in the Near East, the practice at Athens was terminated forever, even though the custom of debt remission failed to become entrenched."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2972/hesperia.86.4.0607?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

I have previously mentioned abolition of enslavement of Roman citizens for any reason in 4th century B.C.

As you can see ancient, slave-holding societies were entirely capable of understanding that enslavement of own citizens was harmful to their social cohesion and defense potential. Solon pushed his measures through during a crisis, BTW, and they stuck.

But if you aren't enslaving your own people, but still relying on slave labor to some degree, you need to bring in slaves from outside. Which is something that other Coalition members would be actually likely to take issue with, not to mention that it would encourage piracy and banditry for the purpose of slave-taking. And then there is the elephant in the room which is that many modern singers don't want to fight the humans, but are terrified that not doing so would mean re-enslavement.

None of the above has anything to do with "the same moral compunctions as the US", but follows the internal logic of the setting (and RL precedents from ancient societies).

[+Child of Hodor]

12 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Lirin wants to protect Kaladin from the world, he thinks he knows best how Kaladin should live (as a surgeon, staying away from combat) to be safe.  In time Kaladin will chafe under this role though, this is how Lirin wants his life to play out, not necessarily what is best for him.  Protecting another shouldn't smother them, you have to be willing to let others live their own lives, honor their autonomy to make choices and accept consequences.  This parallels the difficulties that Kaladin is having regarding Rock especially (but also the other Windrunners). He wants to protect Rock, but finds it difficult to accept the choices that Rock has made regarding facing judgement.

4th oath will be some variant on letting go and allowing others to live their own lives (the anti-helicopter parenting oath)

That's a good point. He want to shield his kids from the world. In OB he says he understood that sometimes soldiers are needed, he just didn't want his kids to be the soldiers. 

I do think Lirin will help with Kaladin's 4th oath. His whole "develop callouses" mantra that he's been telling Kaladin since he was a kid is a part of that. Do your best, but if a patient dies you've got to move on. As demonstrated with Roshone and his son, both needed surgery, he could only work on one. He saved the one he could and the other one died. He made a decision and acted, didn't let the terrible choice he had to make freeze him up. Lirin's experience as a surgeon has necessitated a pragmatic approach to saving people in his professional life. Kaladin will come to understand that approach. 

I'm predicting Kaladin and his family will be stuck in a Fused occupied Urithiru and Kaladin will swear the 4th oath which will make him immune to the power dampening fabrial tech. I'm assuming it's the plate that blocks it. 

13 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

My God, Urithiru is an EVA and the gemstone pillar in the basement is the entry plug.

Yeah it is totally alive. 

Quote

Urithiru had numerous such oddities; this one was round, a stone tube crossing the center of the hallway. Perhaps it was ventilation? Why had it been put right where people walked?

Many other features of the tower defied logic. Hallways dead-ended. Rooms were discovered with no way in save tiny holes to peek through. Small shafts were discovered plummeting down thirty or more stories.

This sounds like a bodyworks exhibit where you are walking through a hallway that is made up like an artery or something. Those tiny holes remind me of heart valves or the esophageal sphincter, opening and closing depending on what was needed. These obstructions probably shifted when the Tower was active. 

Spoilers for the interior of the human digestive system (  ) 

Spoiler

Quote

“I will lead a team into the tower,” Raboniel said, “then secure control of the Sibling’s heart. ... I can learn much studying the gemstones at the Sibling’s heart." - RoW Ch. 14

This quote from the Lady of Wishes really sounds like the tower is the Sibling's physical form and the gemstone pillar is within the heart of the Sibling. The weird gem patterns running along the hallways would be the veins then. 

Edited November 4, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[agrabes]

4 hours ago, Isilel said:

Yea, so:

"In Archaic Greece, Solon of Athens took the unique measure to cancel all debts, abolish debt slavery, and bring back those individuals who had been sold abroad. For this innovation, he drew on the tradition of periodic debt remission and liberation of debt slaves by royal decree in the empires of ancient Mesopotamia, about which he may have heard during his travels in the East. His poems about his legal reforms also display striking similarities with Near Eastern, and specifically Neo-Assyrian, official memorials. In contrast to debt slavery in the Near East, the practice at Athens was terminated forever, even though the custom of debt remission failed to become entrenched."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/10.2972/hesperia.86.4.0607?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

I have previously mentioned abolition of enslavement of Roman citizens for any reason in 4th century B.C.

As you can see ancient, slave-holding societies were entirely capable of understanding that enslavement of own citizens was harmful to their social cohesion and defense potential. Solon pushed his measures through during a crisis, BTW, and they stuck.

But if you aren't enslaving your own people, but still relying on slave labor to some degree, you need to bring in slaves from outside. Which is something that other Coalition members would be actually likely to take issue with, not to mention that it would encourage piracy and banditry for the purpose of slave-taking. And then there is the elephant in the room which is that many modern singers don't want to fight the humans, but are terrified that not doing so would mean re-enslavement.

None of the above has anything to do with "the same moral compunctions as the US", but follows the internal logic of the setting (and RL precedents from ancient societies).

I think it's also important to recognize that Athens was an outlier politically during that period of history, and a relatively small power.  They were the most "progressive" government of that time.  So, yes you can say Athens did free its slaves.  But I don't think that Athens' political situation at that time is very comparable to the situation of Alethkar in RoW.  The king of Athens ruled only a small group of people who are not very diverse either demographically or geographically.  The culture of Athens was also a culture of ideas, philosophy, and debate to determine the best course of action.  Alethkar is a large nation with huge diversity both demographically and geographically.  There is a lot of power concentrated in the High Princes, who are basically a loose confederation of kings who swear fealty to a high king/queen.  Alethkar's culture is very much "might makes right" and a culture of ambition.  They are not culturally similar to a place like Athens.  It doesn't feel like Alethkar is the kind of place where an appeal to pragmatism and/or morality will win over the aristocracy or common people when it goes against their own personal interests.

You're right that opinions can change radically and quickly.  The Russian revolution(s) are a good example.  But in that case, for the common people to go from huge supporters of the Tsar to huge opponents of the Tsar took repeated and MASSIVE mistakes by the Tsar and his government.  The biggest example is Bloody Sunday where the conservative and pro-Tsar peasants came in large numbers to ask the Tsar to help them with what they considered failures by other leaders, only to be met with a violent crackdown.  Cracking down on your own supporters when they come begging you to make only very minor policy changes is about the worst possible move you can make and Nicholas made these same kinds of move multiple times.  A competent leader would have embraced these peasants and probably stopped the Revolution of 1905 right then and there.

What Jasnah is doing is a lot more like what happened in Austria - pushing for many radical reforms simultaneously in opposition to large parts of the aristocracy and common people.  She will face strong resistance to this.  Jasnah is a very smart person, but I think she is blinded by that in this case.  She's convinced (correctly) that her reforms are what is best for her people, but is ignoring what her people actually want.  She knows she is right, but is leaving out the human factor.  This is something she's already been shown to struggle with in the books - for example her decision to kill/spare Renarin.  She only spared him because she had a personal connection and was able to see how he really felt.  Had she not been given the chance to see Renarin's true feelings, she would have killed him and moved on without a second thought for other consequences such as likely pushback from Dalinar and Adolin.

We're going to see one of two things with this plotline, imo:

1) We see a moment of growth for Jasnah and we'll be shown how she learned from her confrontation with Renarin.  She takes people's feelings into account and has developed a plan that will implement her changes slowly and avoid major unrest.

2) We see Jasnah slipping back into old habits, pushing her reforms in quickly and without thought for how others will react.  This is a reinforcement to her of the lesson she learned with Renarin and once she sees the pushback she changes course to a more politically acceptable reform path.

[TMC29ZX]

17 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

My God, Urithiru is an EVA and the gemstone pillar in the basement is the entry plug.

Get me an Asuka and we can go kick some Odium butt

[Mage]

I know that everyone else seems to love this chapter, but if I'm being completely honest, it wasn't my favorite. I thought that the interactions between Kaladin, Syl, and his parents were a little bit cringey. I'm glad that Kaladin is back with his parents and all, but I feel like this chapter wasn't the most well written. Just my opinion, but I see where everyone else is coming from in loving this chapter.

[earthexile]

Jasnah can convince stone that it should be smoke. It's hardly surprising that she thinks she can convince people to free their slaves. I mean rust, Alethi slaves already draw wages, albeit crappy wages. It shouldn't be that big of a deal.