RoW Chapter 18 Discussion

[+Harrycrapper]

32 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

It might be right before this even; chapter feels a bit like being at the start of the 2nd book, so the interludes might be before it.

No, this is the penultimate chapter before the end of part one, the interludes are after this. Next week is the last chapter and then the book is released the week after that. Last time, I started OB by reading the interludes, there were no part 2 chapters released before release day. 

[Kittalia]

I'm confused, why are people saying Navani should be able to get Nicrosil but not Chromium? Isn't Nicrosil an alloy of Chromium? Or was there an in-world mention of one of them that I missed?

[Kered]

Guard walking down the street when they hear a squeaking.

Look down an alley and see Syl slowly trying to drag a rat from a garbage can.  

Syl: Don't worry! It's for Kaladin!

Guards look at each other. 

Guards mutter "Radiants" and walk away. 

 

This is the interlude that not only we deserve but the interlude we need. 

[Valigus]

17 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Weve seen before that Syl has transformed to look like someone Kaladin had a Connection to(Shallan in WoR After washing ashore)

 

then she just did this one

  Hide contents

Syl landed on his shoulder and took the form of a young woman in a full havah, with her hair pinned up in the Alethi fashion

I wonder if she’ll be relevant later on?

Oh that’s actually a good point I haven’t considered that.

 

also how long before hesina gets recognized

 

 

Cause we know hesina has something important going on likely to do with her parents.

1. She had fallen significantly in social status since her childhood 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/61/#e1335

2. Both of her parents are not darkeyed meaning at least one of them is a lighteyes or foreigner

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/324/#e9290

3. Kaladin is related to the former queen presumably through his mother

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10909

4. on top of that kaladin could have potentially managed to get married to laral and she is far far above him in social standing, even with kal being high ranking and their fathers being friends it’s still a bit too big of a gap without other reasons.

 

so is it unreasonable to think it possible that someone at Urithiru May recognize hesina or that she will know people there?

even if she was onlt related to some people of middling importance she would surly still know someone there.

now we really don’t know enough information to judge who would recognize or know her but i think we can try and judge if someone would.

(my really really crackpot theory/ hope is that she is sebarial and Palona’s daughter, this is almost certainly not true but still

Edited November 3, 2020 by Valigus

[Kittalia]

That would be a crackpot theory, but I'm guessing that she'd have some sign of Herdazian blood if it were true. Maybe the fingernails are recessive though?

6 minutes ago, Valigus said:

(my really really crackpot theory/ hope is that she is sebarial and Palona’s daughter, this is almost certainly not true but still

 

Edited November 3, 2020 by Kittalia
Posted too soon

[Valigus]

Just now, Kittalia said:

That would be a crackpot theory, but I'm guessing 

 

But wouldn’t it be so much fun

[Kittalia]

Just now, Valigus said:

But wouldn’t it be so much fun

My personal crackpot Sebarial theory is that he's currently working for/a leader in the Ghostbloods. We know he's shrewder than we give him credit for, and that the Ghostbloods have meetings/a hideout in his warcamp, and his interest in economics with a farming/industry monopoly reminds me of the Ghostbloods' professed interest in a stormlight monopoly. 

(Also, I accidentally posted too early, see my edit above) One other reason I don't think it would work is that I can't imagine Polona not accepting Lirin.

[Rainier]

Decent chapter, but kinda sad to see Kaladin, even here at the end. Lirin's reaction was...not great. When your first impulse is to gloat how you were right all along, you should probably contain that impulse. That's OK. Lirin has been shown to be less than sensitive, and usually a know-it-all.

[+robardin]

56 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I am glad that Kal has found a new purpose and will be helping Lirin. However, I am a little put off by Lirin's attitude. His smugness at proclaiming that he was right all along is definitely not a good look for him. 

Well, I don't think Kaladin being a surgeon is going to "stick". Kaladin thinks he should become a surgeon again after "giving up the spear". And interestingly, Arclo referred to him as "the surgeon" Surgebinder the Sleepless were watching from afar (one would presume). But Ka's reaction is more "resigned to the default course" than enthusiastic.

"I always knew I'd come back to this" is not really embracing it. He also never actually said it. He let his father say it, after dodging raising the topic because he knew what his father would assume, and then agreed with him.

[Valigus]

1 minute ago, Kittalia said:

My personal crackpot Sebarial theory is that he's currently working for/a leader in the Ghostbloods. We know he's shrewder than we give him credit for, and that the Ghostbloods have meetings/a hideout in his warcamp, and his interest in economics with a farming/industry monopoly reminds me of the Ghostbloods' professed interest in a stormlight monopoly. 

(Also, I accidentally posted too early, see my edit above) One other reason I don't think it would work is that I can't imagine Polona not accepting Lirin.

The sebarial ghost blood theory I’ve heard just makes a lot of sense, so I think it could be tru, and yeah she probably would have some herdazian genes but my main reason is it would just fit with their characters she has the same sense of humor as palona and on top of that if any high prince had a daughter that was dark eyed who they still kept pretty close I’d belive it to be sebarial though many also believe her to be from karbranth

[+robardin]

41 minutes ago, Gears said:

Typo. 

I think Lirin's attitude towards Kaladin's departure from the army is a bit insensitive. He just lost everything, and all you can think of is how you were right all along? Honestly, Lirin, I love you, but you have a son with depression and severe self-doubt. Be a bit more aware of the moment. Don't say, "You're finally going to be the person we want you to be and stop doing things that don't matter!" 

Yes, a typo with "ston" and also earlier, with the phrase "more freer and more open". It's either "freer and more open", or "more free and more open" - "more freer" is not correct, or at least awkward. (Is there a way to report these?)

As for Lirin - I agree, this was The Wrong Way to react for Kaladin, but at the same time completely in character. To Lirin, a dedicated pacifist, Kaladin is the Prodigal Son twice over. His son who was lost to becoming a killer, and then who died with his other son fighting in a war; then miraculously returned to him alive, only to still be even more of a killer to him, a Shardbearer. And now... His son is truly returned to him!

If he'd had more time to think about it from Kaladin's perspective, he might have restrained himself. Maybe. It's just too genuine.

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Well, I don't think Kaladin being a surgeon is going to "stick". Kaladin thinks he should become a surgeon again after "giving up the spear". And interestingly, Arclo referred to him as "the surgeon" Surgebinder the Sleepless were watching from afar (one would presume). But Ka's reaction is more "resigned to the default course" than enthusiastic.

 

That's how I read it too. I think Kal is confused and resigned to his fate. Lirin is still hopeful that he can "save" his son from the path of destruction he's chosen. Really, I think Lirin is misguided but it comes from a place of anxious protection--which, again, is very very Kaladin, right? You also see why Kal might have been comfortable around Shallan with her puns and wit--given how his mother seems to have played that role with his father. I think both Lirin and Kal will grow together as they're forced to work together, but now with the experiences that Kal has had in his life since he left Hearthstone.

Thinking from Lirin's perspective, there's no greater sense of failure as a parent than to lose a child, even if it is not your fault. He lost Tien and then Kal ran after him. Lirin lost them both, and felt it was his fault. Tien died, Kal might as well have been dead for all they knew. Now Kal is back. It's a miracle! But is it the same boy that Lirin remembered? Lirin wants to go back the same way that Kal said he kind of wished that *he* could go back. They deal with their trauma differently, but they are similar personalities. Lirin, ironically, seems to dissociate in some ways like Shallan does. He just...doesn't address it.

I do think that with laral here, it sets up Kal+Laral phase 2, at least as a growth device if not a proper ship.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Kittalia said:

I'm confused, why are people saying Navani should be able to get Nicrosil but not Chromium? Isn't Nicrosil an alloy of Chromium? Or was there an in-world mention of one of them that I missed?

It is a combination of Chromium and Nickel.  Navani should be able to identify that it is an alloy and that it is partly nickel by liquidation if it were Nicrosil.  Chromium is a pure metal with a considerably higher melting point and is difficult to produce.

Edited November 3, 2020 by Karger

[the_archduke]

I suspect it is variolation, not vaccination.  Fits the tech level better.  

[+robardin]

Oh, and about Laral becoming "citylady" after the passing of Roshone: that doesn't seem like it'd be high ranking enough to warrant meeting with Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar. Something else going on there?

I mean, think about this: who and what had been the "chain of command" between Hearthstone, a backwater town fit for exiling a disgraced lighteyes "where he couldn't do any more harm", and where Kaladin only realized how unimportant Roshone's position was in the big picture after he returned as a Radiant? Up the line was Highmarshal Amaram, and ultimately, Highprince Torol Sadeas. Both of who are now disgraced and out of the picture (dead, in fact). Ialai had taken up the title of highprince (highprincess?) but she, too is dead.

Hearthstone was deemed worth a special evacuation, one personally attended by Dalinar and Navani in their one and only flying barge, accompanied by a slew of Radiants. Yes, in part that was because of wanting to extract The Mink, but also because it was special to Kaladin, it would seem. And maybe more than that?

I'm not suggesting Laral is about to become highprincess Sadeas or something - for one, that would mean they'd been thinking of bestowing that on Roshone before he was killed, and that seems very unlikely - but there is a vacuum that will need filling, and I suspect Laral has it in her to impress people with her will and determination in short order.

[Schneeente]

Honestly, Syl has more emotional intelligence than 90% of the people I know. She is a gem. And Kaladin should really build a little shrine for her, she deserves it. 

[DeployParachute]

46 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Overall, though, poor Hesina--so many brooding men in her life. She needs Syl more than anyone! :-)

Now I'm thinking about how much more of a loss Tien must have been for her, as I imagine he was that dose of balance to the family dynamic. Poor Hesina indeed...now I've made myself sad.

Now on to my thoughts:

To those who are pointing out the insensitivity of Lirin's reaction to Kaladin's "retirement" and being bothered by it, I think that that is the point. This arc for Kaladin is about finding something new about himself, about re-discovering and connecting things from his past, addressing them, and forging them into a new/different direction than either he or Lirin could have imagined. The conflict in that is going to come from first both Kaladin and Lirin having to discover that "you can never go home again" so to speak. Kaladin even seems to know that this chain of events was inevitable, but will ultimately prove to be not for him. He doesn't want this, but he will have to go through the motions in order to prove it to himself, and to Lirin as well. Lirin has to see that his little boy, who he had maintained a very specific set of hopes and dreams for has changed dramatically, and is a different person, and will be a different person regardless of their time in the new OR. There is going to be a lot of fun play on character development, interactions, revelations, and growth on both men's parts, and I think this is probably the part of the book I'm looking forward to the most now. I hope Brandon delivers.

 

A side note for the Laral shippers: I think Brandon is cutting that off immediately here:

Quote

They’d left Kaladin’s brother with Laral’s children and their governess. She seemed to be recovering from the loss of her husband, though Kaladin thought he knew her well enough to see through the front. She truly seemed to have cared for the old blowhard, as had her children, a solemn pair of twins far too withdrawn for their young age.

Laral has her own problems to deal with, including young children that need their mother, who is also now a citylady. She just lost a husband that she loved, and is not going to be in any kind of place for pursuing a romantic relationship with anyone. Especially not someone who has his own issues, and also still has very strong negative feelings ("blowhard") towards her late husband, and the father of her children. It also would seem a very crass thing to do for someone to swoop in and fill that gap in a short timespan, I don't think Brandon has any intention of writing that. Could that story be told? Kaladin working through his issues in a mirror of Laral working through hers, with the end result that real affection blossoms again over time. Sure it could, but not in this book, not in the timeframe we have for it. Kaladin's page time is going to be spent mostly dealing with his own issues, and working out the distance between him and his father. Laral will likely play a role in Kaladin learning some things on leadership etc, taking inspiration from her and her strength. But romance is out, imo, and I think Brandon is setting that expectation here.

[Karger]

17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Oh, and about Laral becoming "citylady" after the passing of Roshone: that doesn't seem like it'd be high ranking enough to warrant meeting with Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar. Something else going on there?

Anyone who owns land even just a little is automatically of the fifth dahn.  It would not be unusual for protocol to require any landholder to present themselves at court while in the capital.

[Subvisual Haze]

Kaladin having huge issues seeking daddy's approval is hardly surprising, hard to please father figures are a common real world factor in producing extremely ambitious over-achiever children.  I doubt Kaladin will find surgery satisfying long-term, but it's still something he can do for the time being to feel a sense of purpose/accomplishment.  I get the feeling him and his Father will drive each other insane trying to work together though.  Surgeons in general are very particular about how things are done and Kaladin/Lirin only know how to communicate as parent/child, not adult to adult.

[IcaroRibeiro]

24 minutes ago, robardin said:

Oh, and about Laral becoming "citylady" after the passing of Roshone: that doesn't seem like it'd be high ranking enough to warrant meeting with Jasnah, Queen of Alethkar. Something else going on there?

I mean, think about this: who and what had been the "chain of command" between Hearthstone, a backwater town fit for exiling a disgraced lighteyes "where he couldn't do any more harm", and where Kaladin only realized how unimportant Roshone's position was in the big picture after he returned as a Radiant? Up the line was Highmarshal Amaram, and ultimately, Highprince Torol Sadeas. Both of who are now disgraced and out of the picture (dead, in fact). Ialai had taken up the title of highprince (highprincess?) but she, too is dead.

Hearthstone was deemed worth a special evacuation, one personally attended by Dalinar and Navani in their one and only flying barge, accompanied by a slew of Radiants. Yes, in part that was because of wanting to extract The Mink, but also because it was special to Kaladin, it would seem. And maybe more than that?

I'm not suggesting Laral is about to become highprincess Sadeas or something - for one, that would mean they'd been thinking of bestowing that on Roshone before he was killed, and that seems very unlikely - but there is a vacuum that will need filling, and I suspect Laral has it in her to impress people with her will and determination in short order.

Laral is a Citylady of Sadeas Princedom, as we don't know the exactly state of house Sadeas after Ialai's death it makes sense for me to Jasnah take care of this minor succession issue. I think you are overthinking this

Edited November 3, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[Subvisual Haze]

Only 3 Truthwatchers!?  I wonder if they're being jerks about Renarin and Glys and refusing to bond more humans as a result.

[StormingTexan]

This was an entertaining chapter. Loved the family banter. Now we have one more chapter before the big show. 

[psc92]

I really like this chapter. The "child seeking the approval of their parents" trope is one that hits home not just for me, but I think for a lot of people. When done well it can be excellent for the story and the conflict between Kaladin and Lirin. I don't think that Kaladin wants to be a surgeon deep down, but I do think that he wants reconciliation with Lirin, and Lirin understandably doesn't want to lose another son. 

If I try the reverse engineer the storytelling here, I think we will have Kaladin and Lirin come to a reconciliation, and since we know that the Fused are planning to attack Urithiru, I think that the odds of Lirin surviving the attack have fallen with this chapter.

Side prediction: I haven't seen people talk about this, but I'm sure they have since it seems pretty obvious. Szeth will kill Lezian the Pursuer with Nightblood. I don't know that it will happen in this book, but I think it will happen eventually. Nightblood is in Stormlight for a reason and Lezian is a huge problem that can be solved by only Nightblood.

[Govir]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

so Oathgates do seem to operate via the Spiritual Realm

How do we know this?
 

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

4. on top of that kaladin could have potentially managed to get married to laral and she is far far above him in social standing, even with kal being high ranking and their fathers being friends it’s still a bit too big of a gap without other reasons.

Wasn't there talk of Kaladin having to go to war to gain a shardblade (obviously not by Lirin) and therefore *become* lighteyes in order to marry Laral? At the very least Laral thought that at one point.

[Honorless]

2 minutes ago, Govir said:

How do we know this?

Instantaneous travel does seem to suggest that, as all places are one in the Spiritual Realm, while the Physical and Cognitive Realms do care about distances one way or another.