Is Kelsier that bad?

[HipsterStick]

Spoilers, obviously.

Recently, I’ve been re-reading the Mistborn books (I’m nearly through Well of Ascension now, it’s been a slog). As I read Mistborn: The Final Empire, I was reminded of how much I storming LOVE Kelsier. He’s far from a perfect man, but there seem to be a lot of noble things with his character- his desire to free the skaa, his trust for his crew, his willingness to change his beliefs (even if just a little bit) and save Elend.

Yet, every time I see Kelsier mentioned on the 17th Shard, it’s ‘Oh, Kelsier is a megalomaniac with zero regard for his friends and severely hypocritical standards!’or some variation thereof. To a certain degree I can understand these trains of thought- he’s a complex character, with complex goals and motivations. But oftentimes, he’s treated more as a villain than as a hero, and I’m not certain that’s right.

So my question for all of you: is Kelsier all that bad? Is he a hero? A villain? An anti-hero? An anti-villain? Chaotic neutral? What are your blokes opinions on him? 

[Koloss17]

Oh I think he is a fantastically well made character. One of the best, I’d say. I love the dynamics being explored. The legendary hero fueled by a deep hatred, corrupted by that drive. That is some great stuff right there. Is he good? Yes. Has he gone over the edge of good because of his hatred? Also yes. But that’s what makes him great. I don’t think there are a huge amount of haters for him, but he is fun to talk about!

[aneonfoxtribute]

To be fair it is kind of hard to say he's a wholly good person when he would be perfectly happy just killing every noble. Do they deserve it? A lot of them, yeah. But he literally had to be convinced that Elend was different, and that convincing took Elend literally risking his life. Plus there was the time he had Demoux beat up and nearly kill Bilg through no fault of his own, Bilg had, like, a tiny bit of doubt and Kelsier inflamed it, as I recall. He's not a wholly terrible person, but he is definitely an anti-hero and very probably a sociopath. 

[Honorless]

I like his character and have defended him the last few times topics like this cropped up but Kelsier is quite a bit morally dubious.

He strong-arms people into rebel groups with high chance of failure and execution, the entire rebellion was less about freeing the skaa and more about Kelsier's own state-of-mind, he was okay with himself as long as he tried. He took a long shot which only worked through sheer dumb luck, though to be fair, he wasn't working with a lot of information and as mentioned before, was still emotionally distraught over Mare. His "plan" was just: unknown metal, if it works he'll try to kill the Lord Ruler, if it doesn't, the Kandra will use his body and trick the Skaa into believing in a miracle, he just started a cult in the hope that he'd become a symbol for the Skaa to fight against the Nobility and maybe eventually kill the Lord Ruler. He was okay, because as far he was concerned, he'd done his part. He was incredibly charismatic and manipulative, we see that in his interaction with the crew (it wasn't his plan that convinced them to join up, they didn't even know his plan, but his charisma) and even more with the Skaa rebels (with Demoux and Bilg in particular). So, he's not a bad guy but he's not all that great either.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Honorless

[Kingsdaughter613]

He’s a person whose natural inclination is toward evil, who tries to do good instead. Kelsier is canonically a neurological psychopath. Empathy isn’t something he comes by naturally; on some level he is making a conscious choice to care. To me, that makes him a greater person for making that choice.

He has been willing to sacrifice himself for others. He did it when he gave Vin Preservation. He fully expected Ruin to kill him and, unlike his earlier sacrifice, this was done entirely for Vin and Scadrial. For many of us, this wouldn’t be a question. But for someone whose brain isn’t wired to see people as people, it’s a pretty incredible act. (And yes, his brain is wired that way. Hence the word ‘neurological.’)

[ftl]

Yeah, Kelsier's definitely a morally grey hero.

I think you get more people actively discussing the "kelsier is bad" side because the "kelsier is good" side is just so obvious that there's no need to write long posts about it. Obviously there's lots of good stuff about Kelsier - given how he instrumental he was to beating both The Lord Ruler and Ruin, the story's supervillains. It's the contrary side that is more interesting to discuss because it's less obvious.

[Winter Wolf]

Kelsier being good or bad is something Brandon definitely plays with. I believe, in some of those chapter commentaries for the original trilogy he noted that Kelsier might be considered a villain or close to one in another setting. This idea is further hammered home in the second era when a couple of those villains point out that they have commonalities with the heroes of the first era, while Wax would be trying to put those heroes away.

What Kelsier did with Demoux and Bilg was pure villainy imo. But put beside all the good he tries to do, that moment is definitely outweighed by much better sides of him.

[HipsterStick]

11 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He’s a person whose natural inclination is toward evil, who tries to do good instead. Kelsier is canonically a neurological psychopath. Empathy isn’t something he comes by naturally; on some level he is making a conscious choice to care. To me, that makes him a greater person for making that choice.

He has been willing to sacrifice himself for others. He did it when he gave Vin Preservation. He fully expected Ruin to kill him and, unlike his earlier sacrifice, this was done entirely for Vin and Scadrial. For many of us, this wouldn’t be a question. But for someone whose brain isn’t wired to see people as people, it’s a pretty incredible act. (And yes, his brain is wired that way. Hence the word ‘neurological.’)

I- had no idea Kelsier was a neurological psychopath. Huh. If that’s the case, then yeah, I totally agree- that’s pretty incredible that he was able to practice empathy and care.

As a wise old dragon once said: “What is better- to be born good, or to overcome your evil nature with great effort?”

[Toaster Retribution]

I havent discussed Kelsier in a while, but he is my favorite character, not just in the Cosmere, but in fiction overall. I think he is amazing. And part of that is due to the fact that he is very morally grey, a lot of the time. He is an egocentric, cocky psychopath with a heart of gold. Ish. Just that sentence is completely fascinating. Is he a great character? Undoubtedly. Is he a good person. I´d say that he is more of a good guy than a bad guy, but he is not like Elend, Vin, Ham, Wax, etc. I know Brandon has said that the exciting thing about Kelsier is that he could just as easily have been the villain of the story, but just happened to be on the right side.

 Also, as far as I know, Kelsier isn't really disliked. Sure, there are a few who hate his guts, but he generally does really well in community polls over favorite characters and such things. 

[Koloss17]

17 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He’s a person whose natural inclination is toward evil, who tries to do good instead. Kelsier is canonically a neurological psychopath. Empathy isn’t something he comes by naturally; on some level he is making a conscious choice to care. To me, that makes him a greater person for making that choice.

He has been willing to sacrifice himself for others. He did it when he gave Vin Preservation. He fully expected Ruin to kill him and, unlike his earlier sacrifice, this was done entirely for Vin and Scadrial. For many of us, this wouldn’t be a question. But for someone whose brain isn’t wired to see people as people, it’s a pretty incredible act. (And yes, his brain is wired that way. Hence the word ‘neurological.’)

Wait he’s a psychopath? I didn’t think of him expressing those qualities, since it seems that he is driven by the joy of mare’s world, but if it’s canon, it’s canon. Where’s the source of the canon?

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Koloss17 said:

Wait he’s a psychopath? I didn’t think of him expressing those qualities, since it seems that he is driven by the joy of mare’s world, but if it’s canon, it’s canon. Where’s the source of the canon?

WoB:

1. Which of your protagonist characters do you dislike the most as a person? Taking into account that you know all of their inner secrets and motivations.2. On the flip side. Which of your antagonists do you connect with the most? The Lord Ruler seems an obvious choice as he was misunderstood by everybody for so long. But still, I'm curious.

Brandon Sanderson

• This is a tough one, as while I'm writing, I HAVE to like everyone. However, the most disturbing of them is probably Kelsier. He's a psychopath--meaning the actual, technical term. Lack of empathy, egotism, lack of fear. If his life had gone differently, he could have been a very, very evil dude.

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• Note that Kell is a neurological psychopath. (Not a clinical one actually, at least in the US.) That means he was born that way. It doesn’t make him evil, just naturally unempathetic. People aren’t to be blamed for being born neurologically different.
   

• There is a theory that many surgeons may be neurological psychopaths, the lack of empathy allowing them to remain coolheaded when performing high stress surgery. To put it another way, I wouldn’t be surprised if Lirin has some psychopathic tendencies. Batman actually scores higher on the PCLR than Kelsier, if you can believe it. Psychopaths aren’t inherently evil; a lot depends on how they are raised and how they choose to be.

[jamesbondsmith]

I keep thinking of Dox's comments about how if he admits nobles like Elend can be good, then he would also have to admit that he and Kelsier may have been wrong to kill so many of them.

Kelsier is probably one of the biggest Cosmere cases of 'I'm so glad he's pointed at the other side'. Sure, he fights for the underprivileged, but he's edging towards being a serial killer in the way he goes about it.