Adolin & Maya, realmatic process for bringing back deadeyes

[Sbs]

Brief note regarding Adolin and Maya. 

When spren come to the physical realm, we know they lose intelligence/cognition until they spend long enough with a Connection to a radiant. 

Is it possible that, in the cognitive realm, Connection to a radiant could lend physical recovery over time? Could that mean a different set or distribution of powers?

[Leuthie]

They are naturally Cognitive entities, with little cognitive abilities in the Physical Realm. The Nahel Bond allows them cognitive access to the Physical Realm. 

I'm guessing that a "dead" spren is one whose cognitive abilities are gone due to being too strongly in the Physical Realm when the bond was broken. Maya's Cognitive aspect is dead and gone. Adolin will have to initiate and progress the Bond/Connection himself with little input or help from Maya. He's already begun this and we've already seen evidence of it through Maya's actions in Oathbringer. As that connection reaches certain thresholds, Maya will respond more and more. She will be more Adolin than she will the old Maya. The "returned" Maya is and will be Adolin's Cognitive aspect shared through the bond.

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Leuthie

[+Bzhydack]

53 minutes ago, Sbs said:

Brief note regarding Adolin and Maya. 

When spren come to the physical realm, we know they lose intelligence/cognition until they spend long enough with a Connection to a radiant. 

Is it possible that, in the cognitive realm, Connection to a radiant could lend physical recovery over time? Could that mean a different set or distribution of powers?

Technicaly, Nahel Bond is more than just Connection. Radiant and Spren are meldet into one Spiritual Entity. Cracs in Radiants Spiritweb are filled by Sprens own Investiture, Spren gaiin Inteligence in Physical realm, Radiant gain powers. But if Radiant break the Bond, he literaly ripps off part of Spren. So now, to be heald, Spren need to regain this part from somewhere else (because his Radiant is dead and he cannot take his "original" part). Connection is needet, but this is more, but Spren are made from Investiture, so they need Investiture to be healed - maybe Maya needs Adolins Innate Investiture? we know manipulation of Innate Investiture is possible (Nicrosil metalminds) so maybe this is way to go?

Set of powers depends on type of Spren, not state. So this will be Adhesion and Regrowth, no matter what. Distribution... if im correct and Renarin has his powers because Glys is damaged, that mean Adolin will gain propper powers, if Maya will be healed properly, if not, his powers could be somewhat uncorrect.

[Destrus]

Also, this possible restoration with Adolin and Maya is going to play out (i believe) with how they restore The Sibling in order to bring back Urithiru to full functionality. 

[ftl]

Actually, that's an excellent point about the Sibling, and I kind of have a followup thought.

One challenge - story-wise - with Adolin reviving Maya is that it feels weird for a minor character to accomplish something so significant without much more growth. That's kind of why people sometimes post about how he hasn't earned it, or isn't interesting enough for it, etc. He's a supporting character.

But if "Adolin reviving Maya" is treated in the text as a dry run for "(someone) reviving the Sibling", then that actually continues to fit. He stays as a supporting character - him reviving Maya would be used in-text as something that helps the main characters accomplish something, and so it wouldn't overshadow their achievements.

[Realmatic Shadow]

1 hour ago, ftl said:

But if "Adolin reviving Maya" is treated in the text as a dry run for "(someone) reviving the Sibling", then that actually continues to fit. He stays as a supporting character - him reviving Maya would be used in-text as something that helps the main characters accomplish something, and so it wouldn't overshadow their achievements.

This was the big point that tipped me from an undecided stance on Adolin reviving Maya, to fully supporting it. I'm also very interested to see the dynamic of a bond between someone who we've not really seen much evidence for being 'broken' and a spren that we've been explicitly told is 'missing something', and how the sort-of-inversion of a typical bond would reflect on their relationship and how the Surges work between the two.

If Adolin even gets the Surges at all, considering the ability to draw in Stormlight and use the Surges associated with each order seems to be caused by the spren's investiture getting into the 'gaps' in your spiritweb and filling it out. With Adolin and Maya, it is more likely that Adolin will 'donate' some Investiture of some sort to fill in Maya's spiritweb, and that probably wouldn't cause him to get the surges in the same way, if at all, though we might see some weird consequences of this in Maya. (Maybe this whole spiritweb filling the wrong way around will be a key point in the narrative around the Sibling, and how their bond is weird?)

Edited November 2, 2020 by Realmatic Shadow

[Destrus]

On 11/1/2020 at 6:56 PM, ftl said:

Actually, that's an excellent point about the Sibling, and I kind of have a followup thought.

One challenge - story-wise - with Adolin reviving Maya is that it feels weird for a minor character to accomplish something so significant without much more growth. That's kind of why people sometimes post about how he hasn't earned it, or isn't interesting enough for it, etc. He's a supporting character.

But if "Adolin reviving Maya" is treated in the text as a dry run for "(someone) reviving the Sibling", then that actually continues to fit. He stays as a supporting character - him reviving Maya would be used in-text as something that helps the main characters accomplish something, and so it wouldn't overshadow their achievements.

Without getting 'spoilery', I don't know that I would consider him a minor character looking at the beginnings of his arc in RoW.  

He's a supporting character, sure, but he has much more screen time than....say Renarin for a counterpoint.  

I think Adolin has the potential to be like a Sazed type character.  There, not a major character who is at the forefront of the narrative, but still accomplishes some major things. 

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, Destrus said:

He's a supporting character, sure, but he has much more screen time than....say Renarin for a counterpoint.  

So i have seen people compare adolin's PoVs and screen time to renarin and jasnah before. That because currently he has more than them, that he is a main character. I think that is problematic because we have from the author himself that he has deliberately held back on renarin and jasnah because to even dig into them briefly would be opening a huge pandoras box. Renarin and jasnah are major characters in the back five. By brandon's own words jasnah may even be seen as THE main character of the back five. So i dont think it is entirely accurate or beneficial to try and measure importance in that way given that we know for a fact that renarin and jasnah are extremely important to the narrative. We just have not reached that point in time yet.

 

TLDR: i dont think it is beneficial to compare screen time as a metric for character importance especially in regards to jasnah and renarin.

[Blackwarder]

Here’s a crackpot idea that just came to me: to heal deadeye sprens you need Sja anat.

You need Dalinar to reenforce the connection and Sja anat to heal the gap in the spern psyche.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Blackwarder

[ftl]

Oooh. Now THAT'S interesting. Sja-anat has in fact been the only force/being that's been shown to be capable of modifying a spren's nature. I like it.

[Halyo_Alex]

2 hours ago, ftl said:

Oooh. Now THAT'S interesting. Sja-anat has in fact been the only force/being that's been shown to be capable of modifying a spren's nature. I like it.

So Adolin might join his brother as a half-voidbinder... but presumably with the void version of Progression instead.

[Blackwarder]

Not only Adolin, there are hundreds of dead blades around somewhere, it’s an entire army waiting to get called back.

Not to mention the Sibling who we have no idea what’s going on with it.

[+Bzhydack]

13 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

Here’s a crackpot idea that just came to me: to heal deadeye sprens you need Sja anat.

You need Dalinar to reenforce the connection and Sja anat to heal the gap in the spern psyche.

Had the same idea some Time ago 

[Halyo_Alex]

10 hours ago, Blackwarder said:

Not only Adolin, there are hundreds of dead blades around somewhere, it’s an entire army waiting to get called back.

Not to mention the Sibling who we have no idea what’s going on with it.

None of them have shown the same signs of a return to sapience that Maya has, though. I think a proto-bond on the level of Adolin's is still important to restoring a deadeye.

[Pathfinder]

51 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

None of them have shown the same signs of a return to sapience that Maya has, though. I think a proto-bond on the level of Adolin's is still important to restoring a deadeye.

Dalinar felt an "urging" from oathbringer as early as way of kings and oathbringer also recognizes and specifically hates dalinar less because of the actions he chose to take in his life. We dont know how dead spren act when around their bondie in the cognitive realm, and we dont know the effect the perpendicularity had on maya and adolin during thaylenah.

But to be clear i am not saying you cannot believe adolin's bond is crucial to reviving maya. Just saying there has been signs with other shardblades.

[Halyo_Alex]

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Dalinar felt an "urging" from oathbringer as early as way of kings and oathbringer also recognizes and specifically hates dalinar less because of the actions he chose to take in his life. We dont know how dead spren act when around their bondie in the cognitive realm, and we dont know the effect the perpendicularity had on maya and adolin during thaylenah.

But to be clear i am not saying you cannot believe adolin's bond is crucial to reviving maya. Just saying there has been signs with other shardblades.

Alright, yeah, I did forget about Oathbringer since it wasn't focused on quite as much. But you are right, Maya isn't the only example.

[ftl]

Huh. So maybe they'll all be revived. Brandon DOES like raising the stakes faster than you can ever think they can be raised.

So that's one possible end of RoW. *ALL* deadeyed radiant spren get revived, somehow. Which will be be necessary to counter some massive equivalent power injection Team Odium is going to get.

[Halyo_Alex]

On 11/7/2020 at 11:01 PM, ftl said:

Huh. So maybe they'll all be revived. Brandon DOES like raising the stakes faster than you can ever think they can be raised.

So that's one possible end of RoW. *ALL* deadeyed radiant spren get revived, somehow. Which will be be necessary to counter some massive equivalent power injection Team Odium is going to get.

Inb4 Fused with living Blades and Plate, or something...

[Kuram]

Those dead spren coming back are going to be feeling mighty pissed though.  Maya might be fine with Adolin, but I doubt most of the rest will be content with their lot.

[Pathfinder]

12 hours ago, Kuram said:

Those dead spren coming back are going to be feeling mighty pissed though.  Maya might be fine with Adolin, but I doubt most of the rest will be content with their lot.

Well that would depend on how it is done, and what theory you prescribe to. My theory requires a strengthening of the faux bond (my own terminology) as Adolin did with Maya for Dalinar to then use connection and an infusion of investiture to heal the spren. If that is the case, then reviving the other blades would require individuals to treat their bonded shardblades in the same manner, thereby potentially earning some goodwill during the process. Though I do agree, I could see various spren revived reacting among the below three:

 

1. got along with their bondee, and upon revived, bonds the individual as a radiant

2. got along with their bondee, and don't hate humans anymore, but rather just not bond anyone for awhile

3. got along with their bondee, but still has issues with humans, and just chooses to never bond again

 

I could see various spren going along any of those paths. Some would bond as radiants, some would just want some time to themselves, and some would swear off bonding entirely. 

[Shuffel]

12 hours ago, Kuram said:

Those dead spren coming back are going to be feeling mighty pissed though.  Maya might be fine with Adolin, but I doubt most of the rest will be content with their lot.

I disagree on this, the spren who were killed went through the same thought process that the Radiants did. Maybe some of them are pissed, but I believe a lot of them were on board for it.

[Master Silver]

I agree, that the Radiants and their spren reached the same conclusions. I think they broke the bond because they thought they were going to destroy the world. @Sbs I found your initial post interesting. To our Knowledge, Adolin has been the only shard bearer to meet his dead-eye spren in the cognitive realm. Spending extensive time with her their may have allowed for some healing by way of the formation of a bond. Also the merging of the three realms may have (somehow allowed some of her cognitive aspect that her former Radiant took with her escape from the spiritual realm. Investiture is neither created nor destroyed, but transferred. We will find out in 6 days I guess. 

[Kuram]

7 hours ago, Shuffel said:

I disagree on this, the spren who were killed went through the same thought process that the Radiants did. Maybe some of them are pissed, but I believe a lot of them were on board for it.

Based on what, exactly?  

There's no reason to believe the spren weren't aware of the truth beforehand.  The desolations lasted so long.

Edited November 12, 2020 by Kuram

[Shuffel]

Just now, Kuram said:

Based on what, exactly?  

I do not have proof, sorry if I made it come off that way.  It's just my belief.

My belief comes from the relationship of the nahel bond and how closesly connected spren are with their radiant. Especially Radiants of the fourht/fifth ideal.

The truth the Radiants learn before the recreance was so earth shattering it caused them to abandon their oaths and kill part of their soul/best friend.

If the Raidants were willing to do that then i believe the Spren were willing to make the sacrifice. 

 

 

[Leuthie]

There was no reason to break the bonds while the spren were in blade form, "killing" the spren. Bond could be mutually broken through other actions or just through force of Intent. If the only goal of the Recreance was to break bonds, they didn't have to kill the spren.

I think whatever the Knights Radiant learned, they blamed their spren for it. They mocked a battle (in the case of Dalinar's vision, they were attacking Feverstone Keep) and summarily broke their Oaths while their spren were being wielded as Physical weapons. This was a slaughter and a betrayal, not a mutual breaking of Bonds. Whatever the KR learned, it was more than just "Humans destroyed their old world and were the original Voidbringers".