Adolin Knight Radiant Order   87 members have voted

  1. 1. Which Radiant Order do you think Adolin's personality fits the best?


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Radiant Orders that people have so far put forward Adolin as a candidate for: Edgedancer, Stoneward, Willshaper, Dustbringer. He does fit within the worldview of several Orders, after the official Radiant quiz, Adolin is also fit for becoming an Elsecaller. Hey, Lightweaver's also available as an option.

So, which Order do you think fits him the best?

Edited by Honorless
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Edgedancer fits him most, I think. Although I won’t be disappointed if he is a dustbringer or stoneward 

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Im all for Willshaper, as i posted a few days ago.  I dont think he fits the edgedancer motif perfectly, but its also not that far off.

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I'd say Edgedancer or Stoneward, not sure which. So I guess I'll pick Edgedancer, using realistic chance for it to happen as the tiebreaker. 

Edited by beewall
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I think it would be nice to have "None" as an option. No offense intended. :)

Edited by broccoli
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4 hours ago, broccoli said:

I think it would be nice to have "None" as an option. No offense intended. :)

done

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I see him as more of a stoneward right now, but I feel like his journey will be to be an edgedancer.

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Just because one order seems to fit a person slightly better than another order doesn't mean that they're going to be that order. It's not 100% about the personality aligning with the order, but also about the availability or willingness of spren in addition to an element of luck. I feel there are some members of Bridge Four that could be fitted better to other orders, but by luck they became squires to a different order.

Which is why I think Adolin will be an Edgedancer, considering the path he's already on.

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Personally don't see him as anything. Adolin is alright as a character but there are several problems with him becoming Radiant.

1) Is there evidence that his soul is sufficiently broken to allow investiture to fill in those cracks? We don't see him struggling with a mood disorder, a personality disorder, a substance misuse disorder, or other neurological or psychological disorders, nor is he currently a squire to another order (including the Lightweavers - so proximity isnt the only factor - he's around Shallan all the time). Adolin gets a decent amount of screentime so wouldn't we have seen it? Perhaps finding out the truth of his father's past and the death of his mother might cause a massive trajectory change. That being said, I don't think we've seen that in the RoW chapters (yet). Adolin has been able to question his father before (see tWoK), and hasn't followed the codes vigorously before (also tWoK) so him getting a less than glowing view of Dalinar is something he has grappled with previously, albeit in a different way. His soul cracking sufficiently to allow investiture because several people around him are now radiants feels somewhat churlish. If it were so easy, wouldn't everyone eventually become radiant because they were jealous of Shallan's illusions or Kaladin being able to fly?

2) I think the reason that there is a reasonable amount of discussion on which order is because he doesn't fit any well enough to be certain.

a) Windrunner: Adolin fits alright in this order - he is a "big sibling" type, as he looks out for Renarin, and he values the chain of command. That being said, he isn't overly concerned with protecting those outside his immediate circle and he protects them whether they need it or not. For example, Dalinar doesn't need protecting in many ways but Adolin tries to do so - barbs against Dalinar in WoR really get his blood boiling, even though in real terms there is no specific threat. He focuses on protecting reputation as much as the physical and mental well-being of those he feels honor-bound to defend. This is not something we see Kaladin do in the same way although perhaps that relates to their relative social ranks.

b ) Skybreaker: Definitely not. If nothing else, Adolin has committed a crime and used his position to hide from the consequences of that crime. Of all the orders this is one of the least likely.

c) Dustbringer: this order is curious as well as occasionally destructive, neither of which being traits Adolin meets. He is not especially intellectually curious, and doesn't feel the need to understand things - in fact he prefers to pretend to be more dense than he actually is, simply so that people don't bore him with details he doesn't need. He also lacks control - though given the nature of the bond, this is something that seems to need to be learned so this is probably less of a barrier. Given that the order tended to be auxiliaries - sappers and engineers, this doesn't seem to fit especially well.

d) Edgedancer:  I think people have landed on this because Adolin is an extrovert and likes people. The problem is that he shows no particular need to actually *help* those of lower stations in any great measure. Yes he helps a prostitute in tWoK. Once, and I don't expect he ever thought about it again. That makes him a decent bloke, but it doesn't mean he is likely to eschew high society and spend his time going to places like Hearthstone to help people (indeed he *doesn't* got to Hearthstone - although in fairness he was helping Shallan). He may be happy enough spending his time with lower born people, but we haven't seen him make any particular effort to improve their lives (there are literally starving children in Herdaz but he buys three pairs of golden boots in a week). I realise he's got limited opportunity, but my point is that whilst he is a decent person and a good commanding officer in many ways, he probably isn't extreme enough. The only Edgedancer we have insight into literally could leave someone to die and chose not to, despite knowing that she was likely to fail and also be captured/killed. We've seen Jasnah start trying to end slavery but Adolin can actually be a bit of a snob. That doesn't sound terribly Edgedancer to me.  Yes Maya may be getting reawakened, a bit. But that doesn't mean she will automatically be bound to him even if he succeeds. More importantly, I would argue that him holding onto the blade actually serves two other functions. 1) It means he doesn't need to face the idea that he might not be a suitable candidate for radiance - he isn't bonding a spren because of Maya, its not *his* fault, and b ) it hides a narrative element for Adolin - which might suggest that he will become an antagonist - after all his Ryshadium is dead (which might have indicated a change in Adolin that he is heading down a bad road) and he cannot bond a spren because of Maya. If we get another named Edgedancer, my money is on Lirin, not Adolin.

e) Truthwatcher: I don't think anyone thinks this is an option for Adolin. Truthwatchers are concerned with knowledge, especially of the esoteric. That doesn't suit Adolin at all. Renarin, despite being bonded to a corrupted spren, seems to embody the order much better - at least in terms of his personality.

f) Lightweaver: So this has probably been brought up because of the murder of Sadeas. It seems that the lightweavers wouldn't have a real problem with this as long as Adolin's motives were "pure" in his own perspective. The problem is that whilst Adolin likes art well enough, it isn't a driving force for him, nor is it something he couldn't live without. He doesn't lie especially well and as far as we know, he doesn't actually lie to himself (likely a defining characteristic of the order). Most of us probably have some traits that would fit with the lightweavers, but again, it comes down to how extreme you are in them. Adolin, for my money, doesn't reach the bar.

g) Elsecaller: so whilst the need to prove himself exists in Adolin, it is likely to be as much for others as a need to prove himself. He strives for excellence in duelling as much because of the status it would grant him as much as to prove to himself that he can. Our resident Elsecaller, Jasnah, doesn't feel the need to prove herself to others in quite the same way - she knows she is brilliant and uses perceptions of others to reach her goals rather than their appreciation/awe of her being an end in itself. More importantly perhaps, Elsecallers are "careful and patient" neither of which are good epithets for Adolin.

h) Willshapers. For me, this is the strongest contender BUT I still don't think Adolin meets requirements. Willshapers value freedom, and again, in a society with slaves, we've never seen Adolin express strong feelings about it or make any effort to end the practice. Whilst he values his ability to dress his own way (hence the fashion choices) it doesn't matter that he isn't extreme in those choices as long as it is clear that he is making that choice. The problem is that in tWoK he wishes he *could* wear something else, so it is unclear to me whether his current clothing choices reflect that freedom of self-expression that the Willshapers prize. More importantly perhaps, he doesn't think it is unreasonable that others are required to meet certain standards (uniforms for example) even if he doesn't have to. That seems counter to the Willshaper ideals.  Basically again, I simply don't think Adolin goes far enough. 

i) Stonewards: Another strong contender but again, probably not extreme enough. Adolin hasn't been seen to take on enormous projects keenly - he is happier in a back-up role. Whilst he does meet the "interested in warfare" aspect and is an expert duellist, I am less convinced that he "puts the interests of others before his own". He isn't selfish -  this isn't a case of saying he isn't completely self-less therefore he is selfish, it is simply that I am less convinced that he is sufficiently self-less to meet requirements. He is dependable and reliable for the most part, but he doesn't necessarily ignore his own desires and focus on others. The murder of Sadeas for example is very problematic - the Kholin house did not need or want Sadeas dead - Adolin did. His behaviour in that moment was primarily about his wants/needs, not the greater picture. He was reluctant to take the princedom, despite that being an enormous problem, and he is flighty,at least when it comes to romantic relationships (at least historically). Again, to be clear, it isn't that he doesn't have some of these traits, it is that they are probably not defining for him the way Shallan's lies are defining to her or Kaladin's obsession with protecting people is to him. 

j)  Bondsmith: I don't think we know nearly enough about this order. It is possible perhaps that upon finding the Nightwatcher or the Sibling, that Adolin could convince them to bind themselves to him. That being said, Adolin is not a natural diplomat nor is he currently a figure of unity. I think this *could* be a possibility but there are other people I think who are more inclined to become one of the three important Bondsmiths. Adolin might well become a "Bondsmith squire" though which would be a very good thing in many ways as he will be freer to help Dalinar in his goal of uniting Roshar (working as an envoy for example) whilst also remaining true to himself. 

To be clear this is not about bashing Adolin. I just think that the orders are filled with fairly extreme people who then reinforce those extremes on each other. Adolin doesn't often go to extremes (again the murder of Sadeas being an outlier, and not a positive one). I'm also not saying it can't happen, but I think that either we will need to get a better understanding of how the bonds actually form and the specific requirements for the Nahel-bond, or we will need to see some concrete changes in Adolin that move him from his fairly 'everyman' personality to a more extreme version of himself that can then manifest a bond.

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10 hours ago, Stormfather's Beard said:

Is there evidence that his soul is sufficiently broken to allow investiture to fill in those cracks?

Not actually a "requirement".

Quote

Spencer Walther

Lopen clearly states he doesn't consider himself a broken character, like all the other Knights. Do you consider him a broken character?

Brandon Sanderson

I do not. And, again, "broken" is a term with a lot of baggage, let's point that out. I would rather use the terminology that a given person is comfortable with, and let them put definitions on that themselves. Because the way I view it, I don't really view most people as "broken," even if they may use that terminology. What they might have is, they might have certain mental health issues that they haven't yet figured out how to work with that are integral to who they are. But not broken, just still practicing. And that's how I would define a lot of people, but I don't get to define it for those people, if that makes sense.

And one of the things I like to do is to have a variety of viewpoints in my stories, to make sure I'm kind of running the gamut on this, and I think some of the characters in my stories would say, "Yeah. Something in me's broken. You can talk about all the funny business you want, Brandon, about just needing to practice. Something in me's broken, and I need to learn to deal with that. Either fix it, or learn to not let it ruin me." And there are people that I've talked to, that that's how they've described it.

I've talked to other people who say, "No, I'm not broken. 'Broken' implies I'm a less valuable person, because of that phrasing." That is something that I never want to imply. And so it is a dangerous word to use. I let people in fiction use it, because people in real life use it. But just wanted you to be aware of that.

So, the idea that a person needs to be "broken" to be a Knight Radiant is a part of the world that a lot of people talk about. I actually intend Lopen to be a counterargument to that. But people in-world would disagree with me. They'd say, "No no no, he's got some of these things." But if Lopen has them, we all have them. So there are no not-broken people, which also makes the word "broken" just completely wrong phrase to use, if that makes sense.

So, that is how I view it. But I admit that some of my characters would disagree with me.

YouTube Livestream 7 (May 7, 2020)

 

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On 11/1/2020 at 5:39 AM, Stormfather's Beard said:

 I think the reason that there is a reasonable amount of discussion on which order is because he doesn't fit any well enough to be certain.

While many of our main characters seem like they are built for the order, not every radiant needs to be this way. 

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7 hours ago, nbozb said:

While many of our main characters seem like they are built for the order, not every radiant needs to be this way. 

They do need to meet the ideals though. That is literally the gatekeeping mechanism. If you don't believe something strongly enough, you won't make oaths to uphold those ideals. What *does* Adolin believe in strongly? Well I'd argue that he places a lot of emphasis on family. That is laudable, but not related to any Order specifically. That's why I lean willshaper if he is radiant material - they are an order that seems literally *about* freedom so their oaths likely reflect that (they are likely fairly libertarian) which may allow him to maintain an attitude to freedom whilst still allowing him to maintain his priority of family.  He certainly believes in some of the things the Orders do, but does he believe them or embody them *enough*?

Not every virtue is represented in the Radiants. You can be virtuous whilst not being radiant. You can be immoral whilst being radiant (theoretically anyway) - Shallan literally lies all the time (and not always for virtuous reasons). The oaths represent a decision/desire to uphold your understanding of that oath above and beyond others. For example, Kaladin's oaths resulted in him defending a man he didn't like or support against a friend *because it was what was right* (at least in his perception). He did it despite no longer having his powers, knowing he was likely to die because he was already badly injured. That is a very extreme position. Most of us tend to go along with our friends, and it takes a strong conviction to oppose those you love because of your principles. I'm not saying Adolin doesn't have conviction in things. But a) does he have enough and b ) does he have conviction in the *right things* for the Radiant orders? A conviction that he needs to protect House Kholin (for example) does not automatically make him a suitable Windrunner (probably) because what does he do when House Kholin is the aggressor or oppressor? He's thrown House Kholin men at other highprinces, at the listeners and he sees it as necessary. All the windrunners we've seen have a problem with that (that's why they are still fighting). They may be better than Kaladin at accepting previous failures, but that doesn't mean they either agree or would support putting ordinary men on the front-line.  

 

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"I will remember those who have been forgotten"

Who has been forgotten more than the Deadeyes?  The Spren assume them lost, dead, gone.  Humans have literally forgotten who they were for centuries if not millennia.  Adolin hasn't forgotten Maya.  

"I will listen to those who have been ignored"

Adolin seems to be doing his best to listen to Maya.  He listened to Kaladin about Amaram when no one else was, not even Dalinar at first.  

In Words of Radiance, Edgedancers are described as follows: "although they were not the most demanding of orders, their graceful, limber movements hid a deadliness that was, by this time, quite renowned; also, they were the most articulate and refined of the Radiants."

Adolin's fashion seems quirky for a duelist, but it fits and Edgedancer perfectly. 

It all fits, and it will be awesome.  Adolin Edgedancer forever.

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There is a large difference between being basically made for the order (eg Kaladin) and being able to become a radiant in one (eg Sigzil). Adolin is not far away from being an Edgedancer, as the_archduke pointed out, definitely not to the point that his values don’t align with the order’s in any interpretation. While he may fit other orders better, he still fits the Edgedancers enough, and he’s in a radiant spren hotspot with an Edgedancer spren he’s already really close to. It would feel clunky and weird if Sanderson made him a Stoneward.

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