Jump to content

The True Origin of the Unmade


SomeRandomPeasant

Recommended Posts

The Theory: The Unmade were all once Singer god-spren similar to the Nightwatcher and the Stormfather

I do not know if this theory has already been proposed, but I think there is plenty of evidence to back this up:

Evidence #1: The Unmade Sja-anet says that they were “made then unmade”

  • I hate to state the obvious but we can at least confirm that the unmade were something else before they sided with Odium.  I always wondered what “made” them in the first place since Odium was probably the one who unmade them.  We know from Syl that the origins of the god-spren were created partly due in part to the human personification of forces and partly due to the investiture of Honor/Cultivaiton.  So, just like how the current generation of god-spren were “made”, the Unmade might have been “made” in the Cognitive realm by collective personification of mortal minds.

Evidence #2: The Unmade are said to predate humanity on Roshar.  

  • This is where I step into the nebulous realm of speculation, but I am envisioning a singer pantheon of gods.  For example, Dai-Gonarthis the Black Fisher was a type of sea god-spren like Poseidon, while Ashertmarn the Heart of Revel was some type of jubilee god-spren like Dionysus.  Nergoel the Thrill was a god of competition or war like Nike or Athena.  The list goes on.  Then, once Odium came to Roshar, he twisted the god-spren to his own purposes in the same manner that he perverts alot of the manifestations of Investiture.
  • We know that the current generation of Bondsmith god-spren were created by humans because the Sibling/Urithiru can’t predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant.  It would make sense that for the thousands of years of sentient life on Roshar, there would be more than three god-spren created.  It would also make sense that the singers would create their own god-spren.

Evidence #3: In the Oathbringer prologue with Eshoni and Gavilar, Eshoni says she doesn't want the gods of the singers to return

  • Who are the singer gods that Eshoni is refering to? She can’t be referring to the Fused because Venli doesn’t call the Fused their gods, she calls them their ancestors.
  • Eshoni could be referring to Cultivation, Honor, and Odium who have been worshiped by singers in the past.  But it would be odd to fear the return of the god(S)(plural) because we know Honor is dead, Cultivation never left, and Odium is one god.

** To play devil’s advocate with my own theory, this wouldn’t explain why there are nine Unmade and nine orders of Passions.  That is a weird coincidence.  But it doesn’t seem like the Passions and the Unmade are linked, just like how the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher don’t directly correlate with an order of the knights radiant.  Maybe Odium just likes the number nine.

Edited by SomeRandomPeasant
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Singer gods seem to be the Fused, actually:

Quote

Skaiiwalker

Can you give me a hint about the Parshendi gods? It can't be Odium, right? Because it's plural...

Brandon Sanderson

No, it's not Odium. The Parshendi gods... *he paused here for a while* are closer to what the humans would call "Heralds".

Footnote: Brandon is refering to the Fused.
Teen Author Boot Camp (April 11, 2015)

As for the Bondsmith godspren: the Stormfather predates the Shattering and was possibly created by Adonalsium (he was still shaped by perception of singers/humans though), we don't really know enough about the Sibling to be sure, and the Nightwatcher (RoW Lift Interlude spoilers)

Spoiler

was created directly by Cultivation and is unaffected by human perception

I still agree with your main point though: I believe the Unmade were originally something very similar to godspren. The lack of any lore related to such spren on Roshar makes me think that they might have been from Ashyn, though. There's actually a relatively new WoB confirming that spren-like beings still exist on Ashyn, despite the cataclysm:

Quote

Vanahian

Brandon has said that the Ashynite Disease-Based Magic was related with the Old Magic. Did he mean it in a direct way? Like this magic from Ashyn was a branch or a variety of the Old Magic system?

Brandon Sanderson

I do have to RAFO this, for the most part. Suffice it to say that the disease magic is related to a symbiotic bond between spren-like investiture and microorganisms.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/29/2020 at 1:16 PM, SomeRandomPeasant said:

We know that the current generation of Bondsmith god-spren were created by humans because the Sibling/Urithiru can’t predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant. 

I do not think that we know this at all.  If we do, please provide the supporting evidence.  Additionally, I have not seen anywhere that the Unmade predate humans on Roshar.

 

On 10/29/2020 at 1:16 PM, SomeRandomPeasant said:
  • Who are the singer gods that Eshoni is refering to? She can’t be referring to the Fused because Venli doesn’t call the Fused their gods, she calls them their ancestors.
  • Eshoni could be referring to Cultivation, Honor, and Odium who have been worshiped by singers in the past.  But it would be odd to fear the return of the god(S)(plural) because we know Honor is dead, Cultivation never left, and Odium is one god.

 

Quote

"I said," Ulim hissed, "that you were opening yourselves up.  I didn't say what would enter.  Look, your gods need bodies.  It's like this every Return.  You should be flattered."
"Flattered to be killed?"
"Yeah, for the good of the race," Ulim said.  "Those are the Fused: ancient souls reborn."

Oathbringer, I-6, p.576 hardcover

The Singer gods are almost definitely the Fused.  However, the Listeners have lost so much knowledge that they no longer remember anything about them other than fear of the power they offer and price it costs.  No names, no faces, and almost no lore.  Remember--humans lost almost everything, but still retained their minds, and they get everything a kind of twisted-up almost-right-but-completely-wrong.  Now imagine instead of a vocal tradition that got things wrong over time the warped and changed, you lost literally everything except for what was contained in one song.  If you were passing that song down, and you knew it was the only knowledge that could be passed down, would it make sense to say 'Oh, btw, that's your great-great-great-grandpappy that's doing all those evil god-things'?  Better instead to warn away from those claiming to be your gods, whether they were or not, and not bring weird confusion into it.

And Venli likely refuses to call them her gods because they might be the gods of the Singers, but they aren't her gods--merely her ancestors.

While it's possible Eshonai is referring to Honor, Cultivation, and Odium--like you say, it makes little sense. 

On 10/29/2020 at 1:16 PM, SomeRandomPeasant said:

To play devil’s advocate with my own theory, this wouldn’t explain why there are nine Unmade and nine orders of Passions.  That is a weird coincidence.  But it doesn’t seem like the Passions and the Unmade are linked, just like how the Stormfather and the Nightwatcher don’t directly correlate with an order of the knights radiant.  Maybe Odium just likes the number nine.

Odium came to Roshar around the time the Humans did (possibly with them; the last time I went reading WoBs about it, it seemed like Sanderson was being cagey about giving a direct answer either because he didn't have it completely nailed down or he didn't want to give away something to be revealed later).  Odium and his spren talk up passion a lot.  It's really logical that there are 9 Unmade and 9 Passions because that's Odium's Number.  Much like Honor's Number was 10.  There are other examples on other Shard worlds of Shards having a specific Number devoted to them that pops up again and again, sometimes in plot-related events and sometimes just to be a little oddity.

None of this disproves that the Unmade were crafted from pre-Humanity Listener Gods.  Odium could certainly have taken those existing super-spren and torn them asunder, forcing his own Investiture in place, and reforging them into spren that were now of him.  So while I don't agree with the path you take to get their, your conclusion is still very plausible :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, kaellok said:
On 10/29/2020 at 1:16 PM, SomeRandomPeasant said:

We know that the current generation of Bondsmith god-spren were created by humans because the Sibling/Urithiru can’t predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant.  It would make sense that for the thousands of years of sentient life on Roshar, there would be more than three god-spren created.  It would also make sense that the singers would create their own god-spren.

I do not think that we know this at all.  If we do, please provide the supporting evidence.  Additionally, I have not seen anywhere that the Unmade predate humans on Roshar.

I was theorizing that the Sibling can't predate the arrival of the Knights Radiant because the Knights Radiant built Urithiru as their headquarters.  I suppose it is possible that the Sibling existed before Urithiru.  But that would be like saying the god-spren of highstorms existed before the advent of highstorms.  We don't know much about the Sibling, but I was making an educated guess in regards to the Sibling's origins.  We know from Syl that Parshendi were not allowed to become Knights Radiant, at least back then.  So the Sibling must have been manifested by humans.  I was suggesting that since the Sibling was probably recently manifested by humans, then it also must be possible for Parshendi to manifest god-spren of their own, especially given the fact that they have lived on Roshar far longer.  I probably should have made my argument more clear.

In regards to your second point, we know from Hessi's Mythica that the Unmade predate human civilization.  Again, we don't know for certain if this is correct.  However, based on the current events in the story, I would say that Hessi has been vindicated for the most part.  I tracked down the quote for you.

8 hours ago, kaellok said:

“The book,[Mytica]” Shallan said, “claims there were nine Unmade. That matches the vision Dalinar saw, though other reports speak of ten Unmade. They’re likely ancient spren, primal, from the days before human society and civilization.

- Oathbringer, Chapter 77

I know it might be tempting to argue that Mythica only states that the Unmade only predate human civilization.  So maybe the Unmade existed when the human's lived as tribespeople in some sort of hunter-gatherer society.   But we know that humanity was never in this state on Roshar.  They were a people of refugees who had their own society on Ashyn.   They had to be taught how to adapt to Roshar's climate by the Parshendi but they never lacked a civilization on Roshar.  Perhaps Hessi didn't know this fact, but it would be odd if Sanderson revealed this bit of information out of nowhere only to later reveal that this claim is incorrect.  Therefore, I think it is fair to say that the Unmade were manifested by Parshendi, not humans since humans weren't on Roshar when they were formed.

Based on what KandraAllomancer said, I am probably wrong about the gods Eshoni is referring to.  The WOB definitely implicates the Fused.  However, I don't think that delegitimizes the whole theory.  Unfortunately, only time will tell if I am right.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@SomeRandomPeasant, thanks for that!  I had not yet re-reached that point in my re-read of Oathbringer, and had forgotten it.  I am also, unfortunately, a pedant and sometimes let that side come out too strongly.  I do think that the various god-spren were created or elevated to that level by humans, and later by the conflict between Odium and Honor and Cultivation.  We know that there used to be far fewer spren, we know that humans offer something of more substance to spren than the Singers do, and we know that the spren have a tendency to choose humans over Singers in their conflicts.  Because of all the mystery surrounding the Sibling and Urithiru, it is not safe to say that we know their point of origin or even the timeline for when they appeared on Roshar.

This might be the pedant in me warring with the Assuredness Movement in your argument :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@kaellok There is no need to feel bad about being pedantic! I find your points perfectly reasonable and well spoken.  It is true that we simply don't know a lot about the Unmade and the Rosharin timeline.  You are also right in saying that I am making a lot of educated guesses.  I just wanted to put this theory on paper because I don't want to pass up the opportunity of feeling smug if this turns out to be true.;)

Of course, as you have rightly pointed out, there are plenty of reasons why that might not be the case.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...