The Spy

[+Child of Hodor]

We know there is a spy for Odium / the Fused in Dalinar's "inner circle". It's probably not his children, Jasnah, Shallan or Navani. It's probably someone close to one of them. Now we know Wit is in those meetings and very close to Jasnah. Ahem:

To sum it up Hoid is gathering up powers from around the Cosmere, seems like he's gathering up magic from each Shard. He told Dalinar not to trust him because he'd watch Roshar burn to get what he wants. He said he came here seeking an "old acquiantence" but spent his time hiding from him instead. He was hiding from Rayse/Odium. He's got a radiant spren now and all of them are a mix of cultivation and honor. He needs magic that is of Odium. He's cut a deal. 

EDIT: Could be Mraize's "Lightweaver" spy https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/92688-the-spy/?do=findComment&comment=1102204

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Nathrangking]

I hear it, but I'm not sure that I buy it. Odium from all accounts despises Hoid and would very much like to destroy him. I doubt that Odium would cut him any deal at all. If I were Odium and Hoid offered me a deal. He would not be able to finish before I smote him into oblivion.

[+Bliev]

12 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

To sum it up Hoid is gathering up powers from around the Cosmere, seems like he's gathering up magic from each Shard. He told Dalinar not to trust him because he'd watch Roshar burn to get what he wants. He said he came here seeking an "old acquiantence" but spent his time hiding from him instead. He was hiding from Rayse/Odium. He's got a radiant spren now and all of them are a mix of cultivation and honor. He needs magic that is of Odium. He's cut a deal. 

I don't think that's right. Wit said that Rayse would burn the world down if he knew where he was. I think the only thing saving him from that now is that he's in Urithiru. If a spren is all Wit needs to "accumulate power", he doesn't need to ally with Odium, who despises him. He would just need a voidspren or perhaps a corrupted spren via Sja-Anat. 

While I agree that Wit is only a useful ally when your goals align, I do not think he will serve that sort of pivotal purpose yet in the story.

[+Child of Hodor]

18 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

I hear it, but I'm not sure that I buy it. Odium from all accounts despises Hoid and would very much like to destroy him. I doubt that Odium would cut him any deal at all. If I were Odium and Hoid offered me a deal. He would not be able to finish before I smote him into oblivion.

17 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I don't think that's right. Wit said that Rayse would burn the world down if he knew where he was. I think the only thing saving him from that now is that he's in Urithiru. If a spren is all Wit needs to "accumulate power", he doesn't need to ally with Odium, who despises him. He would just need a voidspren or perhaps a corrupted spren via Sja-Anat. 

While I agree that Wit is only a useful ally when your goals align, I do not think he will serve that sort of pivotal purpose yet in the story.

He hates Hoid, but things haven't been working out for Odium on Roshar. His 50+ year long project of making Dalinar his champion didn't work out and Dalinar ascended. "Dalinar was not suppossed to Ascend" OB Ch. 122. Odium thought he had a get out of jail free card with Dalinar, but now Odium needs to win the hard way, whatever that entails. Hoid is probably right Odium would have killed him before, but now he might be open to it. 

Odium hates everyone, and Rayse has history with Hoid, but he also "cares not for the shape of the tool, so long as it cuts". 

 

[Chiberty]

I'm guessing that the fused were just referring to Taravangian.

[Rainier]

I like this theory, since it meshes with my own theory about Hoid's Intent (which is really his desire to avoid anyone else's Intent). He needs a piece of Odium, just like he needed pieces of Preservation and Ruin and Endowment and Honor and Cultivation. When was he planning on acquiring this portion of Odium, since that is the shard most precious with its Investiture, only doling it out piecemeal instead of invested it entirely within a world and its inhabitants.

So Hoid gets what he wants: pieces of all three Shards on this planet, but his words come back to haunt him, and he has to watch Roshar burn around him to get there.

[Aon Tia]

57 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

He needs magic that is of Odium. He's cut a deal. 

Need a piece of odium. Simple. Kidnap one of the crazy fused. There are plenty of them lying around. Why cut a deal?

[+Bliev]

2 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I like this theory, since it meshes with my own theory about Hoid's Intent (which is really his desire to avoid anyone else's Intent). He needs a piece of Odium, just like he needed pieces of Preservation and Ruin and Endowment and Honor and Cultivation. When was he planning on acquiring this portion of Odium, since that is the shard most precious with its Investiture, only doling it out piecemeal instead of invested it entirely within a world and its inhabitants.

 

But wouldn't it be simpler to find a voidspren or interact with Sja-Anat? In what world would Odium just give Hoid a sliver of himself to be used in a  way that is surely contrary to what Odium wants? It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I surely don't trust Hoid's intention with Roshar, and I am certain he would indeed watch it burn to get what he wants. But I think this is more likely that he's gotten himself involved in things like Brandon says he sometimes tends to do, and it's not a plan to trade the Radiants for Odium's power. I also would find it strange that Hoid would play such a central role as a "Big Bad" at this part of the narrative. So far Brandon seems content at letting him and Vasher just be "weird", but to make his quest central to the plot for Roshar seems...off. 

[Erklitt]

I don't believe Hoid would ever cut a deal with Odium. There's this part of the letter to Frost: (ttps://coppermind.net/wiki/Letters)

 

Quote

[...] Rayse, on the other hand, was among the most loathsome, crafty, and dangerous individuals I had ever met. He holds the most frightening and terrible of all the Shards. Ponder on that for a time, you old reptile, and tell me if your insistence on nonintervention holds firm. Because I assure you, Rayse will not be similarly inhibited. One need only look at the aftermath of his brief visit to Sel to see proof of what I say. In case you have turned a blind eye to that disaster, know that Aona and Skai are both dead, and that which they held has been Splintered. Presumably to prevent anyone from rising up to challenge Rayse.

You have accused me of arrogance in my quest. You have accused me of perpetuating my grudge against Rayse and Bavadin. Both accusations are true. Neither point makes the things I have written to you untrue.  [...]

 

[Rainier]

1 minute ago, The Traveller said:

Need a piece of odium. Simple. Kidnap one of the crazy fused. There are plenty of them lying around. Why cut a deal?

The wouldn't work for the same reason he didn't just kidnap a Radiant, a Mistborn, and a Returned. He needs the power, and he needs it for himself. The power attached to someone else isn't any good to him. 

 

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

But wouldn't it be simpler to find a voidspren or interact with Sja-Anat? In what world would Odium just give Hoid a sliver of himself to be used in a  way that is surely contrary to what Odium wants? It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I don't know, and neither do you. Rayse seems to keep tighter control on his power than Honor or Cultivation, or what we've seen on other planets. Maybe he's got more control over Sja-Anat than we know, but Hoid isn't fooled. Maybe Sja-Anat doesn't have a full spectrum of Odium's power, and thus won't work for Hoid's careful balancing of Intent. There could be a dozen reasons why Hoid needs to work with Rayse directly, and one of his minions wouldn't cut it. 

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

I also would find it strange that Hoid would play such a central role as a "Big Bad" at this part of the narrative.

You and I must have different definitions of Big Bad. Hoid, even if he's playing the double-cross, is not the Big Bad. We've met the BBEG, and we know it's Odium. If Hoid were to be revealed as the BBEG, it would be because he brought Odium here in the first place, he trapped him here, and he's the one in control all along.

If we get that twist, I'm here for it. I just don't expect it or think it is coming.

5 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

I don't believe Hoid would ever cut a deal with Odium.

Compelling, to be sure, and a reminder that Hoid respects Rayse, or at least his power. That doesn't mean he would refuse to ever work with him, although I could see how the grudge could get in the way.

[Karger]

I don't see this working unless Hoid is trying to be a triple agent.  This would actually explain his relationship with Jasnah pretty well as he needs her cooperation for this to work.  I also don't think Odium is aware of his involvement.  Whenever we know Odium is paying personal attention to someone or somewhere Hoid is conspicuously absent. 

[+Bliev]

3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You and I must have different definitions of Big Bad. Hoid, even if he's playing the double-cross, is not the Big Bad. We've met the BBEG, and we know it's Odium. If Hoid were to be revealed as the BBEG, it would be because he brought Odium here in the first place, he trapped him here, and he's the one in control all along.

 

I didn't mean to imply he's THE big bad, but A big bad. Double crossing our Radiants and leading them into Odium's clutches so brazenly, for some ends that we do not understand as anything other than "He has his own reasons" would set him up as a major villain in a way that even Taravangian has not been set up to be. AT least we understand his motives. I do not put it past Hoid playing the double cross as you say it, but for it to happen in the front five, before most readers are really cosmere aware and many are basically like Navani in terms of their perceptions of him (i.e., he's weird, and seems like he knows more than he's letting on) doesn't square with me.

I agree with you that there is more to Hoid that we like to see--I think too many see him as a protagonist with good motives, and I think that's a stretch--but I do not think him being an ally of Odium is likely at all at this point. 

HOWEVER, I could see him trying to help them shatter Odium, so he could get a piece. Or kill Rayse and let someone else ascend, and he gets a sliver in the process. That I could see. 

[Aon Tia]

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The wouldn't work for the same reason he didn't just kidnap a Radiant, a Mistborn, and a Returned. He needs the power, and he needs it for himself. The power attached to someone else isn't any good to him. 

 

I know. It was just a joke. 
He needs some object that will give HIM access to odium’s investiture. But I also think he may not risk it, odium may try to warp his brain. 

[Honorless]

Hmm they are both said to hate each other. On the other hand, both are individuals with dubious morality. I'm of two minds on this.

[+Child of Hodor]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm they are both said to hate each other. On the other hand, both are individuals with dubious morality. I'm of two minds on this.

30 minutes ago, Bliev said:

But wouldn't it be simpler to find a voidspren or interact with Sja-Anat? In what world would Odium just give Hoid a sliver of himself to be used in a  way that is surely contrary to what Odium wants? It seems like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I surely don't trust Hoid's intention with Roshar, and I am certain he would indeed watch it burn to get what he wants. But I think this is more likely that he's gotten himself involved in things like Brandon says he sometimes tends to do, and it's not a plan to trade the Radiants for Odium's power. I also would find it strange that Hoid would play such a central role as a "Big Bad" at this part of the narrative. So far Brandon seems content at letting him and Vasher just be "weird", but to make his quest central to the plot for Roshar seems...off. 

Either Odium's magic or a way to get out of the system with both a sprenbond and whatever Odium magic he picks up. It's not easy to do.

I still think he will help Odium in exchange for something. I don't  know if he's done it yet. There's a tiny bit of support for him being Mraize's spy. Hoid is bonded a Lightweaver spren and in RoW Chapter 13:

Quote

“Who, then?”

“I cannot betray this secret,” Mraize said. “Let’s just say that Lightweavers fascinate me, and leave it at that. And you should not fear if I did keep someone close to you. Such a person could be an… aid in times of need. Iyatil did the same for me.”

That would dovetail nicely with @Bliev's suggestion of Sja-Anat. He's got a radiant spren bonded that has some cultivation and honor, Sja-Anat could presumably add some Odium investiture. Mraize wants Sja-Anat. An alliance of convenience. 

 

[Aon Tia]

More than Wit I have doubts that odium would cut a deal with Wit. 
Epigraph has already suggested that some are uncomfortable with his interference into their realms. 

Spoiler

It is also possible that they know he is going around collecting investiture from multiple shards. I think more than one shard are wary of his intentions. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by The Traveller

[+Bliev]

17 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That would dovetail nicely with @Bliev's suggestion of Sja-Anat. He's got a radiant spren bonded that has some cultivation and honor, Sja-Anat could presumably add some Odium investiture. Mraize wants Sja-Anat. An alliance of convenience. 

 

OMG I LOVE THIS SO MUCH. 

Yes. This is amazing.

ETA: Also, this would square--Mraize may think that Wit is just a "normal" lightweaver and thus think he's fascinating, when really he's WAY more than that. 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Bliev

[RShara]

Even if Hoid was willing, I don't think Rayse would be. Rayse is willing to destroy the planet for a chance to kill Hoid, I don't think he'd cut a deal instead.

[Dresden_Stormblessed]

Why not spin the theory the other way? The Cosmere is actually about one mans journey to becoming God. Hoid seeks to replace Adonalsium and be there when all Shards break apart. He is in the looooong game of absorbing all of the Shards eventually. 

[HipsterStick]

I would note here that while part of Hoid’s goal is almost certainly to collect investiture, it’s almost certainly not the end-all-be-all (or at least, he’s willing to wait til circumstances are right to obtain it). 

I don’t remember where exactly, but I remember Brandon saying that Hoid hung around Sel for a while trying to become an Elantris, but it didn’t quite work, so he stopped trying. Given his hatred for Rayse, I think a similar situation might arise regarding Odium’s investiture.