RoW Chapter 17 Discussion

[Aon Tia]

15 minutes ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

Huh.

Kinda figured ROW would be Szeth's....

 

RoW is Venli’s book. 

[Rainier]

16 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I didnt realise that Jasnah was a roving warlord through her own lands 

In Oathbringer, we're shown how Jasnah's father crafted this kingdom she now rules through conquest and blood. Gavilar was a warlord, Elhokar was a warlod, and now Jasnah is a warlord. Where do you think these slaves Jasnah wants to free came from? They're the people Gavilar conquered.

8 hours ago, ftl said:

I find point 3 to be a key here. The country's already in a situation where they've lost almost all of their slave labor. There's a clear decision point here - either enslave lots of humans to make up for the missing parshemen, or re-organize to not use slaves anymore. Jasnah's picking the second option.

And looking at the long-term here, this is probably a key step in the fight against Odium. Odium wins not when the Singers kill the Humans, but when the humans turn to him. Trying to get all Alethi to stay loyal to Alethkar rather than turning to Odium seems reasonable, and the slaves would certainly be Odium's prime conversion targets. And vice versa, the war is won not when all the singers are dead, but when Odium is defeated - the bigger of a wedge you can drive between the singers and odium, the easier that fight gets and the better the rebuilding afterwards would go. Not sure how this affects the eventual singer-human relations, but I think it does.

This is the kind of argument that I'm amenable to, because it's based in the work and its world and treats the established premises with respect. What I'm not amenable to is the argument that we ended slavery in our world therefore they need to end slavery in their world. One of the nice things about these books is the strange, foreign, fantastical setting. I'm protective of that, because this is not our world, and their values need not match our values, and that's OK. Their values should be foreign and strange. Scadrial is the Earth analogue in the Cosmere. Let these other worlds have their own room to breathe. 

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

In Oathbringer, we're shown how Jasnah's father crafted this kingdom she now rules through conquest and blood. Gavilar was a warlord, Elhokar was a warlod, and now Jasnah is a warlord. Where do you think these slaves Jasnah wants to free came from? They're the people Gavilar conquered.

And criminals and slaves bought from abroad.

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

This is the kind of argument that I'm amenable to, because it's based in the work and its world and treats the established premises with respect.

Even that is dubious. Do you really want slaves to be loyal to you, but all owners to hate you? And whether people in low nahns would like to lose the only people even lower than them is hard to believe. And what will they do to criminals?

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

What I'm not amenable to is the argument that we ended slavery in our world therefore they need to end slavery in their world. One of the nice things about these books is the strange, foreign, fantastical setting. I'm protective of that, because this is not our world, and their values need not match our values, and that's OK. Their values should be foreign and strange. Scadrial is the Earth analogue in the Cosmere. Let these other worlds have their own room to breathe. 

Yes. This is correct. Yet economics works the same way. So what is the economy of slavery? How many slaves do they have? It seemed to me that slaves were reasonably common, but not overwhelmingly so. A few per cent of the population maybe.

[LifeBeforeDeath]

2 hours ago, The Traveller said:

RoW is Venli’s book. 

What makes you think that?

You could just as easily say it's Navani's.

[Rainier]

3 minutes ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

What makes you think that?

You could just as easily say it's Navani's.

We know, from what the author has told us, that there will be ten books, and each book will have one primary flashback character. The first three have been Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar in that order. We've known the other two were going to be Eshonai and Szeth since at least publication of WoR. Of course Eshonai turns out is really Venli, because despite trying to maintain plausibility that any of them could die, flashbacks to a dead character are hard to pull off.

That leaves book 5 as Szeth, tentatively titled Stones Unhallowed.

The back 5 flashback characters are also known. They are Lift, Jasnah, Renarin, Taln, and Ash. Order remains to be determined, but I think Jasnah is pencilled in at 10. 

[Georion]

40 minutes ago, Rainier said:

We know, from what the author has told us, that there will be ten books, and each book will have one primary flashback character. The first three have been Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar in that order. We've known the other two were going to be Eshonai and Szeth since at least publication of WoR. Of course Eshonai turns out is really Venli, because despite trying to maintain plausibility that any of them could die, flashbacks to a dead character are hard to pull off.

That leaves book 5 as Szeth, tentatively titled Stones Unhallowed.

The back 5 flashback characters are also known. They are Lift, Jasnah, Renarin, Taln, and Ash. Order remains to be determined, but I think Jasnah is pencilled in at 10. 

From what I understood both Eshonai and Venli will have flashbacks in ROW, I think Brandon wrote this on reddit, though I cannot quote it right now.

EDIT: actually found it rather easily, here it is:

"In the original outlines, I hadn't intended to go into as much depth as I ended up doing with Eshonai/Venli in books two and three. I realized quickly into writing the series that I couldn't wait that long to humanize the Parshendi. So I put a lot of the mystery of their culture and their motives into books two and three.

That led me to deciding in this book to split the flashbacks between them, as I felt it added more variety to the flashbacks--as I had sacrificed some of the novelty that was originally going to distinguished the flashbacks for this book."

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Georion

[Aon Tia]

46 minutes ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

What makes you think that?

You could just as easily say it's Navani's.

Because this is what Brandon has told us. 
Each book has one flashback character, who is essentially the major character of that book. 10 books and 10 orders, each order will be represented. 
So far, we have had a windrunner, lightweaver and bondsmith book. This one is willshapers and next will be skybreakers. 

[Rainier]

4 minutes ago, Georion said:

From what I understood both Eshonai and Venli will have flashbacks in ROW

Yes, but what we were originally told was that it was going to be Eshonai's book, and Eshonai's flashbacks. But her sister got her killed and then stole her limelight, so what can you do?

[Lemiltock]

5 hours ago, Rainier said:

In Oathbringer, we're shown how Jasnah's father crafted this kingdom she now rules through conquest and blood. Gavilar was a warlord, Elhokar was a warlod, and now Jasnah is a warlord. Where do you think these slaves Jasnah wants to free came from? They're the people Gavilar conquered.

Gavilar certainly, but Elohkar and Jasnah would not be considered warlords. How many slaves have the Alethi taken from the parsh in their war of retribution, zero so in the entire time Elohkar was king he captured zero slaves. Neither is Jasnah adding slaves to her kingdom by war and deciding shes changed her mind. For over 7 years the Alethi have not captured a single slave through war. And you think its somehow rediculous that Jasnah would be against slavery? 

 

[+Harrycrapper]

7 hours ago, LifeBeforeDeath said:

What makes you think that?

You could just as easily say it's Navani's.

Things have been pretty evenly split between various characters so far. But, this book is supposed to be the Willshaper book, which is Venli's order, also what Eshonai was going to be, and they are the characters whose flashbacks we are supposed to get. I do recall Brandon saying that a third character that previously hadn't had too may viewpoints was also going to be prominent and that is likely Navani, so you're kinda right there.  

[Master Silver]

2 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Gavilar certainly, but Elohkar and Jasnah would not be considered warlords. How many slaves have the Alethi taken from the parsh in their war of retribution, zero so in the entire time Elohkar was king he captured zero slaves. Neither is Jasnah adding slaves to her kingdom by war and deciding shes changed her mind. For over 7 years the Alethi have not captured a single slave through war. And you think its somehow rediculous that Jasnah would be against slavery? 

 

Also, Jasnah being wise and able to think ahead, realizes that all of the parshman now being freed and able to think and also not being kept around, makes a huge market for slavery because many light eyes will want to replace their parshmen slaves. The issue with replacing docile slaves with bitter angry ones is that the amount of ugliness and brutality required to keep slaves from a) rebelling, b ) running away, or c ) trying to take someone with them would ultimately prove to be a drain on Alethi manpower, and also do substantial harm to Alethi society making it even harsher. Therefore, getting rid of slavery and the slave trade while the rich and powerful are for the most part already learning to live without is a extremely smart move by Jasnah in my humble opinion. And then of course, it is just the right thing to do, which I think Dalinar and Navani recognize. Side note, slaves becoming Radiants like Skybreakers or Dust Bringers could end very poorly for their former masters. And in Alethi society, having a shard blade would automatically make many slaves a higher rank than their masters (which they could then just duel and burn out their former masters eyes). In conclusion.... Good for Jasinah

[earthexile]

Economics is going to go through something of an overhaul with the presence of Lightweavers and Elsecallers in society. Soulcasting is the backbone of the Alethi war machine and therefore the economy, and before now it's been a very bottlenecked business controlled by the Alethi government and Vorin church. Now, any random neighborhood darkeye could theoretically open up Bungo's Soulcasting Company, turning peoples' trash and extra rocks into food and lamp oil. If there was ever a time to take the drastic step of ending slavery, it's now, before everyone adjusts to the new world and slavery's still an essential part of it.

[Dakhor Goon]

Who is the Mink?

 

On 10/29/2020 at 10:13 AM, LifeBeforeDeath said:

What makes you think that?

You could just as easily say it's Navani's.

RoW is supposed to focus more on Venli and Eshonai.

 

On 10/27/2020 at 8:06 AM, Nathrangking said:

Jasnah and Wit whispering in meetings huh! Are you besties now?

I would like to see Jasnah become a worldhopper.

[Infinity Sliver]

If she survives,I think Lift might make a good worldhopper later on

[Rainier]

4 hours ago, Dakhor Goon said:

Who is the Mink?

He's a character first introduced in OB, in an interlude. He was the Herdazian general who sacrificed that guy to the greatshell? monster thing. If you've been reading the RoW, which I hope you have, since you're posting here, then you'll know there was a plan to smuggle him out of Alethkar, the conclusion of said plan forming the opening of the book.

[Sparks]

On 10/29/2020 at 11:05 AM, Rainier said:

Yes, but what we were originally told was that it was going to be Eshonai's book, and Eshonai's flashbacks. But her sister got her killed and then stole her limelight, so what can you do?

Sisters, amirite?  Can't live with them, can't turn them into mind-controlled voidlight monsters through nefarious plans.

[Sparks]

On 10/30/2020 at 9:09 AM, Dakhor Goon said:

Who is the Mink?

 

RoW is supposed to focus more on Venli and Eshonai.

 

I would like to see Jasnah become a worldhopper.

 

On 10/30/2020 at 9:30 AM, Infinitysliver said:

If she survives,I think Lift might make a good worldhopper later on

It'll be interesting to see if Radiants can indeed become worldhoppers without losing their Radiancy.  As RoW has just informed us, it's difficult to travel away from the Roshar system the more one is Invested, and what are their bonded spren partners but Investiture made sentient. 

[Necessary Eagle]

2 hours ago, Sparks said:

 

It'll be interesting to see if Radiants can indeed become worldhoppers without losing their Radiancy.  As RoW has just informed us, it's difficult to travel away from the Roshar system the more one is Invested, and what are their bonded spren partners but Investiture made sentient. 

I think WoB is that it would be difficult but there would theoretically be ways around it. Unless I'm thinking about the one about Cognitive Shadows, but I think he said something similar for Radiants, too.

[Justice]

Annotation is live on reddit. Displayed as link to avoid spoilery things:

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[Michael Portz]

10 hours ago, Justice said:

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*mindblownbytheauthorsefforttocreate*