Jofwu

RoW Chapter 17 Discussion

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On 10/27/2020 at 11:16 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

but they are treated like humans still

Sometimes.  Bridge four would tend to disagree.

On 10/27/2020 at 11:16 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

and they can own property and buy other goods

In theory.

On 10/27/2020 at 11:16 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

This chapter shows even ardents are see as slaves, so Alethi society might have a broader definition of slaverism 

Not exactly.  Modern views of slavery are shaped by plantation slavery common in the Americas.  However in Rome it was not uncommon for slaves to own property or be highly educated.  Slave can mean a lot of thingsArdents are technically slaves.  It was a precaution put in place by the sunmaker after he overthrew the theocratic government.  They are also forbidden to fight, own property or participate in politics.  As Jasnah points out they are even starting to regain some political power although it is indirect.  Ardents can leave at any time they wish and by virtue of training and place are too valuable to mistreat.  The same can not be said for all slaves

Janah's actions may actually not even be a first.  It was mentioned by Rosk that in Taravangian's Kharbranth there are no slaves.

Edited by Karger
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I'm now very curious as to whether there are Stonewards on the side of the Coalition. We know they have the Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, Bondsmith (de facto since there's only one we know), Elsecaller (ditto), and rebellious Dustbringers. They've all be mentioned earlier. We also know that the Skybreakers (minus only Szeth apparently) are on the Singers' side and Willshapers aren't really reformed yet.

So, are the Stonewards simply non-existent still? It seems like the most plausible explanation for the lack of mention. 

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13 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

are the Stonewards simply non-existent still? It seems like the most plausible explanation for the lack of mention

Yes so far it appears we don’t have any stonewards. 
 

Spoiler
Quote

Questioner

Is there anything about the Stonewards that you can share that's not a RAFO? I know they're coming later.

Brandon Sanderson

They are coming later, so not really. They were more of the Knights Radiant front line troops, as opposed to the Windrunners who were scouts. But you probably already knew that.

So how late is late? Sounds like later half of the series to me.
Excited about Stonewards though :

Quote

Questioner

What's your favorite order of the Knights Radiant and why, and which are you most exited to expand upon.

Brandon Sanderson

I would say that my favorite is probably the Windrunners, just because, y'know, they do the stuff that I would want to do but I really want to talk about the Stonewards because the stuff they do is going to be very visually interesting.

I also really want to know what an order led by Taln would be like!

Edited by The Traveller
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Just popping into to say rumors about Wit and Jasnah better be false. If she’s hereto I’m going to be pretty upset.

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10 hours ago, Debarra said:

I don't think the Azish draft and the slaves the Alethi have are the same thing as one is a lifetime gig.

They are not, but guess where the rest of Azish slaves are and where they are sending every slave they can buy.

10 hours ago, Debarra said:

Also I presume that draft would be over by now after a year since the parhsmen left. I could be wrong though. 

How would they end it? They need to eat and agricultural workers are not going to appear out of thin air. They also need to maintain large armies, which consist of young men primarily. They are missing in the fields..

10 hours ago, Debarra said:

The Alethi also have a literally displaced nation.

In Herdaz and Jah Keved distributed over large areas And they cannot concentrate them all that much quickly, as they would outstrip local resources. And they need troops.

10 hours ago, Debarra said:

That is plenty of workers to use the land or to help move from one place to another. The biggest drawback I can see is the highstorms which is probably what stops them from perusing those options.

Roshar's best means of transport on land is a chull cart. You'd need to use the oath gates and extensive land transport. And you cannot just drop them on land. You need to make at least storm shelters and provide seed grain.

9 hours ago, agrabes said:

Definitely a fair point - the labor market has already been overturned.  So it may be possible to accommodate more change.  Then again, removing all slave labor may collapse an already weakened system too.

But it has not been overturned in a good way. The Parshmen have been removed. They are unskilled labor by necessity. You can live with your household slaves going away, just less comfortably. But the rest is a problem. Trade and advanced manufacturing are suffering more than agriculture. Yet Jasnah wants to remove even more unskilled labor. Or make it more expensive.

I really doubt this would end well.

9 hours ago, agrabes said:

Without diving into a general discussion of Jasnah, I'll just say I think this is a good opportunity for her character.  Either she will prove that yet again she's a super genius who's thought of everything and has a plan to deal with all consequences or she will suffer a bit of a setback.  I personally think she is going to face a bit of pushback.  She's pushing a lot of changes - all motivated by the idea of doing what is right, for sure, but this is a lot to convince people about all at once.  People in general have a tendency to disagree about what is best for themselves.  We see it in the real world all the time.  I think we have to see at least some pushback.  It might be a pretty minor plot, but it seems like a very Odium thing to do to flame up a revolution over something like this.

Yes, this plan means trouble.

And in terms of human development, disregarding ethics, it is the least effective thing she can do. Vorin lands are not suitable for an industrial economy for one and only one reason: half the population cannot read

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I very much doubt that abolishing slavery would really do all that much with the existing social structure, the lower Nahn have barely any rights and could become indentured labourers, slaves in all but name.

How is the slavery economics doing currently? Entire regions blocked off, one of them both a major supplier and buyer (Alethkar). On the other hand, the ongoing conflicts and labour shortages might be things that they could exploit.

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22 hours ago, Bliev said:

I love how if a woman breathes near Kal, it's a ship, but there are actual rumors about Jasnah and Wit and the fandom is all HOLD ON LET US GET ALL THE FACTS PLEASE.

Lol true. In my opinion, it’s just Alethi gossip right now. Gossip is gossip. I find it more likely they’re having cosmere discussions, like Wit hinted at doing at the end of Words of Radiance, and the Alethi, not knowing this, don’t see any other reason why a man and a woman would be close like that. Rumors are rumors, but these seem to have a mostly explainable foundation.

I do like them though. Witnah?

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10 hours ago, Karger said:

Not exactly.  Modern views of slavery are shaped by plantation slavery common in the Americas.  However in Rome it was not uncommon for slaves to own property or be highly educated.  Slave can mean a lot of thingsArdents are technically slaves.  It was a precaution put in place by the sunmaker after he overthrew the theocratic government.  They are also forbidden to fight, own property or participate in politics.  However Ardents can leave at any time they wish and by virtue of training and place are too valuable to mistreat.  The same can not be said for all slaves.

 

This is largely true, I think. Chattel slavery is/was a unique sort of evil, and that doesn't seem to be what the humans face on Roshar. The singer slavery was more akin to it, and that has been overturned now. They are in the middle of a global war for their very existence and in total economic and social upheaval. It makes sense that in remaking the world, a ruler might seek to do so in a fairer way. There is no better time (see, for instance, the plans for reconstruction post civil war in the US, the social safety net put into place in Europe after WW2, etc.), and there are definitely worse times. I doubt we will see Jasnah truly struggle in this right now because her POVs are not central to the plot, but it seems that she is thinking about remaking the world according to the ethical considerations she holds, and she may be less concerned with what a noble in Jah Kaved might say about it. Whether she succeeds or not is likely outside of the realm of this book (or the first 5 in  general) because it will take decades to reconstruct Roshar if they are able to survive the war. 

What it does serve as, however, is a pertinent line in the sand for our favorite slave-cum-radiant and the erstwhile Listener who is trying to learn how to be a Radiant. I doubt Jasnah's success or failure will be at all known or important here--rather  her positions will set up important plot points for the more central POV characters. 

Edit: it's also a critical nugget of character for her. Jasnah is an enigma. Purposefully so. We see her in action with Shallan in WOK, very rarely in WOR, and in conflict with Kaladin and in battle in OB. So far the  major plot points for her has been in educating Shallan and setting up her journey to the Shattered Plains, discovering secret info in Shadesmar, clashing with Kaladin, showing Renarin that his future sight is fallible, demonstrating what a level 4 radiant can do when a perpendicularity is near, and now showing that she is a benevolent leader, and not just a harsh one. I don't know that we need to know much else about her yet until we get into her head and learn her true struggles and insecurities. Which we will probably have to wait a decade for. lol

Edited by Bliev
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16 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I do not think that an argument along the lines of "that someone once thought and argued that slaver was good, and they where considered smart so they cant he wrong" is a good tactic to take.

I'm not sure how you could read my post and this is your only take-away. 

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13 hours ago, Karger said:

 Modern views of slavery are shaped by plantation slavery common in the Americas.  However in Rome it was not uncommon for slaves to own property or be highly educated. 

One of the cherished privileges of Roman citizenship was being legally protected from enslavement for any reason. Romans abolished debt slavery for citizens in 4th century BCE. So, no, the idea that enslaving your own people is corrosive to society is not "modern".

Also, they did too have chattel and plantation slavery. The latter ruined Italian agriculture and made late Republican/Imperial Italy dependent on grain imports from the provinces.

Concerning  the situation of slaves, the skilled and educated ones could be well-off and eventually in position to  buy their freedom and gain the coveted Roman citizenship. In fact, Greek scholars and artists often even sold themselves to Romans for that very reason. If they served powerful people, they could be influential and respected even while enslaved. But most slaves - those toiling in agriculture, the mines, female slaves forced into prostitution, etc., didn't have it any better than American slaves and might have been worse off.

 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

They are not, but guess where the rest of Azish slaves are and where they are sending every slave they can buy.

What Azish slaves? As far as we know, they never had human slavery. Also, the famine that loomed back in OB didn't seem to materialize anywhere during the year gap, so they have managed.

 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

How would they end it? They need to eat and agricultural workers are not going to appear out of thin air.

 

They will invent labor-saving devices and practices, like Europeans were forced to do after the Black Death. Also, there should be plenty of refugees from the war-torn areas and Singer-ocuppied territories, who would be glad to farm.

I am surprised by all the slavery-apologia. Slavery is a largely inefficient way of agricultural production, some special circumstances aside, which is why serfdom eventually replaced it. Not to mention that on Roshar human slaves can't really compare with the ideal slaves that parshmen had been in their lobotomised state. Or that embittered human slaves would provide an ideal audience for Odium's recruitment pitch. Jasnah is right to nip the attempts to expand human slavery in  the bud. And intelligent as she is, she'll certainly include singer slavery in her ban - which could provide the foundation for possible rapprochement with singers in the future.

 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And in terms of human development, disregarding ethics, it is the least effective thing she can do. Vorin lands are not suitable for an industrial economy for one and only one reason: half the population cannot read

European countries abandoned slavery within their own borders long before the advent of industrial economy. Also, literacy rates in early industrial era were far lower than you seem to think.

And social cohesion among the exile Alethi is incredibly important for thei survival, which is why it makes sense to curtail opportunities for them to prey on each other and create internal strife. They need to provide a beacon of hope to the people back home and motivate them to escape and/or fight against Singer opression. 

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Well, Wit is a unlikable (old) man with a pointy nose.  That’s what I got as Navani’s viewpoint there.

I know there are people hanging out for 1-1 girl talks (Overlady).  Looks like that’s not happening here.  Did anyone think that Wit’s taking of a Cryptic affected how he appeared to Navani as well?

 

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1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Also, they did too have chattel and plantation slavery. The latter ruined Italian agriculture and made late Republican/Imperial Italy dependent on grain imports from the provinces.

1 hour ago, Isilel said:

Or that embittered human slaves would provide an ideal audience for Odium's recruitment pitch. Jasnah is right to nip the attempts to expand human slavery in  the bud. And intelligent as she is, she'll certainly include singer slavery in her ban - which could provide the foundation for possible rapprochement with singers in the future.

True my point was that slavery means different things at different times in different places.  The increase in the number of chattel slaves that were used in plantation slavery may have actually caused the fall democracy(using the definition loosely) of Rome.  Slavery being bad is "shockingly" not really controversial among political scientists or moral philosophers.  Jasnah's position and action are certainly good ones.  If she manages to implement them well Alethkar will become a much better place to live.

Edited by Karger
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14 hours ago, Storyspren said:

Just popping into to say rumors about Wit and Jasnah better be false. If she’s hereto I’m going to be pretty upset.

I don't think the rumors are true (as in like, 99% sure they aren't true), but even if they are that wouldn't preclude Jasnah being bisexual or pansexual (or even asexual, as someone who is asexual can still be in a relationship with someone else). [I am assuming "hereto" is supposed to be "heterosexual" in this case]

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3 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm not sure how you could read my post and this is your only take-away. 

There where a couple of things I took from your post, and I feel I addressed the otheres further in my post. The part you quoted was in response to this

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And there are plenty of great thinkers throughout the ages who argued that slavery was a good thing, so saying it's objectively a good thing is projecting modernity into fantasy

From there I went on to disagree that labour is the most valuble thing people can provide. Just because short sighted people saw more to gain individually than as a whole throughout history, does not make slavery suddenly objectivly good. 

 

You also mention that you would be disatisfied if Jasnah as queen of her people decided that slaves are infact her people too  and she has a respons ability to all her people. Hence she wants them free.

 

Just because humans did something for thousands of years, does not make it:

A) an objdctivly good thing

B ) a "moral play" to go in a different direction 

 

As for the ecconomic costs, sure change brings with it costs, bit the gains far outweight the losses, especially when we consider the magic elements of roshar (soulcasters) and their already militaristic laws.

Edited by Lemiltock
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19 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

From there I went on to disagree that labour is the most valuble thing people can provide.

You're putting words in my mouth, again. I never said labor is the most valuable thing a person can provide, I simply said that it is valuable, and in demand. It's also something that everyone can provide, and it's often the only thing the one holding the sword wants from you. It doesn't matter if you can write sonnets if a warlord comes through your town, kills the guards, enslaves the people, and wants workers for the mines.

Furthermore, it's asinine to say slavery is bad, and therefore it makes sense that they'd get rid of it. It would make as much sense to say that war is objectively bad, and therefore it makes logical sense for everyone to stop fighting and work together. I believe I called it a cloying morality play.

You have not addressed my actual point, which you've missed twice now, that a hierarchical system won't become an egalitarian one overnight, and the Alethi society is one of the strictest hierarchies imaginable. 

My gripe is that this doesn't feel earned, not yet. Brandon has said that he's spent a lot of time learning and studying about depression, for Kaladin, and DID, for Shallan, because he wanted to do justice to their characters and not simply take the easy and simple way out. I just want him to do the same for slavery in the Alethi society. Make it earned, make it real, and it will work. Make it cheap, make it easy, and, well, cloying morality play is the kindest way to put it.

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3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You're putting words in my mouth, again. I never said labor is the most valuable thing a person can provide, I simply said that it is valuable, and in demand. It's also something that everyone can provide, and it's often the only thing the one holding the sword wants from you. It doesn't matter if you can write sonnets if a warlord comes through your town, kills the guards, enslaves the people, and wants workers for the mines.

Not necessarily. There is a reason for the quote "Greece has conquered her rude conqueror"

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25 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You're putting words in my mouth, again. I never said labor is the most valuable thing a person can provide, I simply said that it is valuable, and in demand. It's also something that everyone can provide, and it's often the only thing the one holding the sword wants from you. It doesn't matter if you can write sonnets if a warlord comes through your town, kills the guards, enslaves the people, and wants workers for the mines.

I didnt realise that Jasnah was a roving warlord through her own lands and so this line of reasing holds no water when evaluating why Jasnah would want to free the Alethi slaves. Also Jasnahs suggestion is not to kill the slaves, she wants to free and pay them for their labour, the labour will still be there.

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Furthermore, it's asinine to say slavery is bad, and therefore it makes sense that they'd get rid of it. It would make as much sense to say that war is objectively bad, and therefore it makes logical sense for everyone to stop fighting and work together. I believe I called it a cloying morality play.

Ahh so its stupid to think slavery is bad, exain to me how its not because so far your only argument is warlords and free labour both of which are  not very sound arguments. And yes War is bad, this is why just about every country currently tries to negotiate peace first, because war is one of the most terrible things that can take place. Bad and necissary often go hand in hand, however, war is often necissary against an oppressor not for the oppressor (see slavery)

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You have not addressed my actual point, which you've missed twice now, that a hierarchical system won't become an egalitarian one overnight, and the Alethi society is one of the strictest hierarchies imaginable. 

I never implied, nor has the books, that this change would haooen over night. Infact changes to the strict heirachy have been happening from the start, Kaladin a dark eyes was unofficially engaged to a light eyes, he was put in charge of the kings guard and out side the command structre. Dalinar is learning to read, there are female radiants. All of these things upend the perfext heirachial system and have been happening for as long as the books.

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My gripe is that this doesn't feel earned, not yet. Brandon has said that he's spent a lot of time learning and studying about depression, for Kaladin, and DID, for Shallan, because he wanted to do justice to their characters and not simply take the easy and simple way out. I just want him to do the same for slavery in the Alethi society. Make it earned, make it real, and it will work. Make it cheap, make it easy, and, well, cloying morality play is the kindest way to put it.

Doesnt feel earned how? Because the first we see of it is Dalinar fighting Jasnah over it, or because of all the changes weve seen through the books of scocietal change? But sure its a cheap morality play...

Edited by Lemiltock
Addition to post on labour
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No one is saying slavery isn't evil (except for 99.9% of the Alethi).  Thus if slavery is magically banned  by a wave of Jasnah's shardblade, it will feel cheap and unrealistic.  Slavery existed because economic forces made it seem like a smart idea to a lot of people.  Showing that changing so the Alethi give up slavery could be satisfying.  Saying "we all agree that slavery is bad"  therefore the Alethi should agree with us 21st century earthlings, would feel like a cheap morality play.

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5 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

No one is saying slavery isn't evil (except for 99.9% of the Alethi).  Thus if slavery is magically banned  by a wave of Jasnah's shardblade, it will feel cheap and unrealistic.  Slavery existed because economic forces made it seem like a smart idea to a lot of people.  Showing that changing so the Alethi give up slavery could be satisfying.  Saying "we all agree that slavery is bad"  therefore the Alethi should agree with us 21st century earthlings, would feel like a cheap morality play.

Which is not how the book has presented it. Litteraly the first we hear about it is Dalinar ousbing against the idea. This indicates Jasnah has to fight for it.

I would possibly understand this complaint of the books hadnt shown significant social chsnge already and if it was a throw away line that there are no slaves.

Instead the books show several social changes (men can read, eye colour significents changing, women fighting  and queen etc etc) and they also show Jasnah raising the idea and even Dalinar opposes her. 

 

Also people have in this very thread called the argument that slavery is bad stupid hence I will also disagree that noone is saying slavery isnt evil.

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6 hours ago, Rainier said:

You have not addressed my actual point, which you've missed twice now, that a hierarchical system won't become an egalitarian one overnight, and the Alethi society is one of the strictest hierarchies imaginable. 

A hierarchical system does not become egalitarian overnight true but laws are passed overnight that attempt at changing that system.

Mere declaration of abolition of slavery by Jasnah is not going to magically make the system egalitarian and slavery vanish. There will be resistance and there will be a lot of work afterwards to make it a reality. But it is a first step in that direction and a good one. Many such changes have happened in our world historically speaking by the passing of legislations first and then slow and reluctant acceptance by the society later. Take for example practice of untouchability in India, widow remarriage, women suffrage etc. I don’t know much about American history but did not one president with the declaration of his intention to remove slavery caused it to happen in all the country? 

6 hours ago, Rainier said:

My gripe is that this doesn't feel earned, not yet

Not earned how? Don’t you think that this issue has been addressed in twok and WoR. When a group of former slaves show extraordinary bravery, skill and character and save the prince and next in line to the throne of a kingdom and his army and earn freedom in doing so. When the same former slaves turn bodyguards to the king save his and family members lives number of times ( from assassin in white at that who no shardbearer had been able to stop as of then) when the same former slaves turn radiants and become unparalleled military power that humans have not seen in centuries  and not only become instrumental in the humanity’s efforts against survival, but are the sole beacon of hope for winning if at all. 

 It already, in-world, has put a big question mark and severely challenged the merits of the practice of slavery and underlying belief in the superiority of lighteyes over darkeyes that such system thrives on. 
 
Further, another major group of slaves, parshmen who were believed to be of sub human intelligence, have risen revolted against humanity in a war which for your average parshman is about slavery and their treatment thereof. 

They have also shown that they are not sub human, they are not unintelligent, they once belonged to a thriving civilisation in ways much more advanced than Rosharan civilisation of today. They have proved themselves to be military power again. Again challenging the belief that humans are superior to parshmen. 
 

All these events that have been happening in the books are about slavery and subjugation of one species by another ( not unlike racial discrimination of our world) and injustice of it and the fight against that
Events have been happening but the dialogue that needs to happen due to these events has not happened yet. Or in-world amongst the scholars, the dialogue must be taking place but was not touched upon in OB. 
But now, one year later in RoW I am glad that this dialogue is going to be at the forefront with Jasnah spearheading the campaign against abolition of slavery. 

Edited by The Traveller
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8 hours ago, Rainier said:

My gripe is that this doesn't feel earned, not yet.

 

6 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Thus if slavery is magically banned  by a wave of Jasnah's shardblade, it will feel cheap and unrealistic.

I think that if Jasnah just stopped slavery legally, we'll see lighteyes and Highprinces institute version of serfdom on their lands. Released slaves will just be put into menial labor for 16 hours a day with horrible wages, part of which they'll use to pay taxes. Even Jasnah won't be able to solve the nation's labor issues with a proclamation or an edict just a few years after it lost its supply of cheap labor.

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Yeah, in hindsight, this seems set up in a lot of ways.

First - radiancy eliminating the idea that darkeyes will always stay darkeyes. There's been a whole host of former darkeyes that have now turned lighteyes. The nobility all know that, the way it is today, literally anybody might the next day turn out to be a shardweilder. The social structure is already in upheaval.

Second - the advancement of the bridge crews, specifically. From slaves to the most powerful people in Alethkar and the backbone of their army.

Third - the awakening of the Parshmen. Alethkar already lost most of its slave population, and has to adjust to life without them - unless they immediately create a new underclass that they'd treat like Parshmen.

And fourth, of course, Jasnah herself. It's entirely in character for Jasnah to sit down, figure out how she wants society to run, and say "yep, I'm Queen now, this is how we're gonna run this country now." She's not one to avoid rocking the boat, or to go along with things just because it's the way it's been.

 

I find point 3 to be a key here. The country's already in a situation where they've lost almost all of their slave labor. There's a clear decision point here - either enslave lots of humans to make up for the missing parshemen, or re-organize to not use slaves anymore. Jasnah's picking the second option.

And looking at the long-term here, this is probably a key step in the fight against Odium. Odium wins not when the Singers kill the Humans, but when the humans turn to him. Trying to get all Alethi to stay loyal to Alethkar rather than turning to Odium seems reasonable, and the slaves would certainly be Odium's prime conversion targets. And vice versa, the war is won not when all the singers are dead, but when Odium is defeated - the bigger of a wedge you can drive between the singers and odium, the easier that fight gets and the better the rebuilding afterwards would go. Not sure how this affects the eventual singer-human relations, but I think it does.

 

Anyway, I totally didn't expect that - it certainly blindsided me, and I bet it's blindsiding everyone in-character as well (c.f. Dalinar). But once I think about it, it makes sense.

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55 minutes ago, ftl said:

Yeah, in hindsight, this seems set up in a lot of ways

Agreed. SA has talked about slavery and racial discrimination as much as it has talked about mental issues in its heroes. 
 

book 1 was about slavery and the crimes against darkeyes committed by lighteyes. Amaram, Roshone and Sadeas were shining examples of this bloody tradition. 

Book 3 then addresses in parts the parshmen side of things and how they were treated almost like beasts of burden. Racial discrimination at its heights. 
 

I am glad that Jasnah is willing to take a first step in the right direction. But it alone will not be sufficient. 
 

It is not well known as of now but eventually when it becomes public knowledge that Taln and others (Nale, Ishar etc) are heralds, Alethi gods, are darkeyes then that is going to erode what mythological support the lighteyes have for their superiority.  

Edited by The Traveller
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I find it odd that once again some fans have such a negative reaction to plot points that they have yet to see how they play out in the story.   

Jasnah isn’t snapping her fingers and “poof” slavery is gone.  The Stormlight Archive is a TEN book long series.  This is just the beginning.  

On 10/27/2020 at 2:34 PM, Rainier said:

If we free all the slaves because Good Queen Jasnah is concerned with their wellbeing, I'll retch from the cloying morality play.

You are oversimplifying this chapter.

Jasnah is essentially doing what Abraham Lincoln was trying to accomplish with his Emancipation Proclamation amidst the American Civil War.  Even though he himself wasn’t a true abolitionist, he saw an opportunity to make a dramatic change so he acted.  He didn’t get rid of slavery overnight, he simply got the ball rolling.  

Yes, there need to be consequences to such a dramatic amount of social and economic upheaval.  It would be equally absurd If the idea of light-eyed superiority was overturned overnight with no downsides.  But there is absolutely no indication that an instant, utopian resolution will happen in The Stormlight Archive.  It certainly hasn't happened in any other of Sanderson's works.  The fact that characters are attempting to make changes in the world they live in is not unrealistic.  It is certainly not a "cloying morality play" if a small selection of characters push to get rid of slavery. Even in the United States during the nineteenth century, there existed a small number of true abolitionists.  They were certainly in the extreme minority, but they still existed.  The fact that people exist on Roshar who want to get of slavery is inevitable, not implausible.  

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

You have not addressed my actual point, which you've missed twice now.

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

Furthermore, it's asinine to say slavery is bad, and therefore it makes sense that they'd get rid of it.

You're putting words in my mouth, again.

By the way, let’s just calm down, shall we? Everyone here is just trying to have a discussion about a series of fiction novels.  If you feel someone has missed your point, it is not the end of the world.  I have felt that you have missed the points of my arguments in the past, but misunderstanding is sometimes the price we pay for discussion.

Edited by SomeRandomPeasant
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On 10/27/2020 at 3:20 PM, Innovation said:

Investigating the Shin is something I am all for. I know we will learn about them in detail in Szeth’s book, but more information about them will be interesting.

Szeth will have a book?

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