RoW Chapter 17 Discussion

[Kingsdaughter613]

50 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"the most possible good for the most people" oh no Jasnah is a utilitarian!  Hopefully she starts estimating future policy impacts in terms of Utils/person/cost. 

Historically enlightened despots attempting to quickly enact widespread social reforms have not had much success. Hope it goes better for Queen Jasnah than it did for Emperor Joseph II.

The Meiji would be a significant exception.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"the most possible good for the most people" oh no Jasnah is a utilitarian! 

 

Egad. Because if she really thinks logically about utilitarianism - and she is a very logical scholar - she might reach this conclusion!

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"the most possible good for the most people" oh no Jasnah is a utilitarian!  Hopefully she starts estimating future policy impacts in terms of Utils/person/cost. 

Historically enlightened despots attempting to quickly enact widespread social reforms have not had much success. Hope it goes better for Queen Jasnah than it did for Emperor Joseph II.

For how long after Jasnah's conversation with Shallan after the alley were people convinced Jasnah was Machiavellian and all her actions must be seen in that extreme lens? Now she is clearly Utilitarian and all her future actions must be seen in that extreme lens as well? Personally I look forward to seeing more of progressive Queen Jasnah. But to each their own. 

[+Bliev]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For how long after Jasnah's conversation with Shallan after the alley were people convinced Jasnah was Machiavellian and all her actions must be seen in that extreme lens? Now she is clearly Utilitarian and all her future actions must be seen in that extreme lens as well? Personally I look forward to seeing more of progressive Queen Jasnah. But to each their own. 

As most real world leaders go, she seems to piece together her own strategy based on multiple philosophical streams. I'm sure she's read all of the Alethi versions of the philosophers of old--all women of course--and has created her own approach. I also think it's unlikely that Wit is pulling any strings with her. Jasnah is not easily manipulated and I'd be disappointed if that was the way it went. Although surely many Alethi might think it to be true with their antiquated ways of thinking. 

I think he's informing her knowing that she's logical--both to amuse himself by seeing what she does with shocking information and also to see if he can get her on board with his goals. I'm sure he's spent millennia looking for a wit as quick as his own. :-)

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Bliev said:

As most real world leaders go, she seems to piece together her own strategy based on multiple philosophical streams. I'm sure she's read all of the Alethi versions of the philosophers of old--all women of course--and has created her own approach. I also think it's unlikely that Wit is pulling any strings with her. Jasnah is not easily manipulated and I'd be disappointed if that was the way it went. Although surely many Alethi might think it to be true with their antiquated ways of thinking. 

I agree on all parts

6 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I think he's informing her knowing that she's logical--both to amuse himself by seeing what she does with shocking information and also to see if he can get her on board with his goals. I'm sure he's spent millennia looking for a wit as quick as his own. :-)

As to Wit's motivation for working for her, I have literally just this second come up with what I think (could be wrong because I have not gone through the latest posts extensively) is an original theory.

Wit's is close to Jasnah to learn soulcasting. Here is the WoB that makes me think as much:

 

Stormlightning

You've talked about how Hoid really appreciates his new Lightweaving abilities, but what about the Soulcasting side of things?

Brandon Sanderson

So, you'll have to see.

Stormlightning

Is he excited about that, or does he already have all of that?

Brandon Sanderson

No, he doesn't have all of that. He knows more than a lot of people do, and knows to be more-- frightened of Soulcasting than others are. Frightened is perhaps the wrong term. Wary. 

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

[Rainier]

49 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For how long after Jasnah's conversation with Shallan after the alley were people convinced Jasnah was Machiavellian and all her actions must be seen in that extreme lens? Now she is clearly Utilitarian and all her future actions must be seen in that extreme lens as well? Personally I look forward to seeing more of progressive Queen Jasnah. But to each their own. 

I don't think there's much as difference between Machiavellian and Utilitarian as you seem to think. Both are rational and unemotional, the difference is between selfishness and selflessness. Since I don't think Jasnah is either purely selfish or purely selfless, they're both good frames through which to view her actions and decisions.

I'd also say the scene you forgot to mention is the one where she advocated killing the singers to prevent them from being taken over by Odium. That's pretty Machiavellian.

[Subvisual Haze]

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

For how long after Jasnah's conversation with Shallan after the alley were people convinced Jasnah was Machiavellian and all her actions must be seen in that extreme lens? Now she is clearly Utilitarian and all her future actions must be seen in that extreme lens as well? Personally I look forward to seeing more of progressive Queen Jasnah. But to each their own. 

A monarchy one generation old simultaneously trying to abolish slavery as well as butting heads with the organized church one year into a regency seems like a recipe for disaster and social backlash.  

That and Jasnah seems a little overdue for a character flaw or personal failure to struggle against.

[Georion]

I was looking at my (sadly less impressive) map of Roshar while the meeting with the Mink was going on, and this is bugging me:

Quote

“Before I make any promises though, tell me why you have so many troops stationed here, here, and here.” He pointed at several fortifications on the southern border of Alethkar, near the ocean.

Alethkar has no direct access to any of the Oceans. The southern boarder is made up pretty much entirely of the Frostlands, which afaik arent part of the kingdom, and besides, hold little value.

It would make sense if he was referring to the Tarat Sea, but he isnt, and the sea is referenced elsewhere during the discussion so it's probably not it.

So where are those Alethi troops?

[agrabes]

2 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

"the most possible good for the most people" oh no Jasnah is a utilitarian!  Hopefully she starts estimating future policy impacts in terms of Utils/person/cost. 

Historically enlightened despots attempting to quickly enact widespread social reforms have not had much success. Hope it goes better for Queen Jasnah than it did for Emperor Joseph II.

I think her choice makes a certain amount of sense - make the change while everyone's already off kilter and don't allow them to re-entrench themselves into a new norm that doesn't fit what you want.  But I agree - rapid, widespread social reforms are generally a recipe for disaster.  They're usually the cause (or result) of civil war and revolution.

I can't see the slave owners (aka all or most members of the middle and upper classes) of Alethkar just sitting idly by while they are economically ruined by the loss of their slaves.  There are really only three options for freeing slaves:

1) Set slaves free, no money changes hands, resulting in the economic ruin of slaveholders who had invested large amounts of money into purchasing the slaves.  If you've got a certain political inclination, that probably sounds pretty good - raise up the common man and bring down the rich and powerful.  On the other hand, the destabilization of your economy collapsing when most major businesses simultaneously fail is a pretty big downside.

2) Set the slaves free, but require them to pay back a slave debt to their former masters.  This would prevent complete economic collapse, but would result in those slaves still being effectively slaves as they work to escape a debt they can never truly repay.  At least their children would be free.

3) Set the slaves free, with the former slave owners reimbursed by the government.  This could work, but probably depends on the financial state of the Alethkar kingdom.

I will be interested to see how Sanderson handles this one.  Even though freeing slaves is objectively a good thing, it's not an easy thing and crass as it may seem to say it does have serious negative societal effects in the short term which is why it took years and years to do in real history.  I guess the easy way out would be for Navani to invent fabrials to take the place of the slaves and allow economies to continue by using machines to replace human labor.  But I hope it doesn't go that way.  I'd rather see Jasnah struggle with backlash to this - or cleverly defeat potential backlash.

[Kuram]

Don't know if anyone mentioned this but:

Quote

“They are… unpredictable,” the Herald said. “I eventually left them behind. They tried to kill me, but that I could take. It was when they started to worship me…” Ash crossed her arms, pulling them tight. “They had legends… prophecies about the coming of this Return. I didn’t believe it would ever happen. Didn’t want to believe.”

So this is confirmation that the Shin leaders knew Szeth was correct, and they made him truthless anyway?

[+Child of Hodor]

2 minutes ago, Kuram said:

Don't know if anyone mentioned this but:

So this is confirmation that the Shin leaders knew Szeth was correct, and they made him truthless anyway?

Maybe. They have these prophecies and Szeth thought they were being fulfilled and their leaders said he was lying and made him Truthless. They probably didn't want to believe him because if he's right it would mean the end of the world potentially. They didn't want to deal with it. 

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I don't think there's much as difference between Machiavellian and Utilitarian as you seem to think. Both are rational and unemotional, the difference is between selfishness and selflessness. Since I don't think Jasnah is either purely selfish or purely selfless, they're both good frames through which to view her actions and decisions.

I'd also say the scene you forgot to mention is the one where she advocated killing the singers to prevent them from being taken over by Odium. That's pretty Machiavellian.

My point was I think it is reductionist to equate a person purely and fully to a philosophical view just because she may espouse an aspect of it. There is a whole rainbow of forms of utilitarianism to choose from. That does not mean someone is necessarily a hard line, and will only follow fully through on it. Storms, don't even take my word on it, take Jasnah's:

 

“I seek the action that does the most possible good for the most people, this is in keeping with my moral philosophy”

 

She didn't say it was her moral philosophy. She says it keeps with it. As in she formed her own moral philosophy, and an aspect of it is in line with that statement. 

 

TLDR: People are far more nuanced than being defined whole by a philosophical thought. People thought Jasnah was purely Machevellian and viewed all her actions in that light, yet now she is suddenly Utilitarian. I wonder what philosophical thought people will be convinced she is purely next?

 

19 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

A monarchy one generation old simultaneously trying to abolish slavery as well as butting heads with the organized church one year into a regency seems like a recipe for disaster and social backlash.  

Totally respect your opinion, and I wish you luck with it. Personally I am hyped to progressive Queen Jasnah in even more action. Breaking gender norms, freeing slaves, and fighting for equality. Works for me. 

19 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

That and Jasnah seems a little overdue for a character flaw or personal failure to struggle against.

Yeah, with all due respect, ain't going down that rabbit hole. Jasnah is a fully fleshed out character to me, and I wrote at length about that in my thread "Jasnah more than meets the eye". She doesn't work for you, I respect that. But she works for me. I would wish you luck with your theory, but to be completely honest I look forward to the books hopefully proving you wrong. 

[Gilphon]

12 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think her choice makes a certain amount of sense - make the change while everyone's already off kilter and don't allow them to re-entrench themselves into a new norm that doesn't fit what you want.  But I agree - rapid, widespread social reforms are generally a recipe for disaster.  They're usually the cause (or result) of civil war and revolution.

I can't see the slave owners (aka all or most members of the middle and upper classes) of Alethkar just sitting idly by while they are economically ruined by the loss of their slaves.  There are really only three options for freeing slaves:

1) Set slaves free, no money changes hands, resulting in the economic ruin of slaveholders who had invested large amounts of money into purchasing the slaves.  If you've got a certain political inclination, that probably sounds pretty good - raise up the common man and bring down the rich and powerful.  On the other hand, the destabilization of your economy collapsing when most major businesses simultaneously fail is a pretty big downside.

2) Set the slaves free, but require them to pay back a slave debt to their former masters.  This would prevent complete economic collapse, but would result in those slaves still being effectively slaves as they work to escape a debt they can never truly repay.  At least their children would be free.

3) Set the slaves free, with the former slave owners reimbursed by the government.  This could work, but probably depends on the financial state of the Alethkar kingdom.

I will be interested to see how Sanderson handles this one.  Even though freeing slaves is objectively a good thing, it's not an easy thing and crass as it may seem to say it does have serious negative societal effects in the short term which is why it took years and years to do in real history.  I guess the easy way out would be for Navani to invent fabrials to take the place of the slaves and allow economies to continue by using machines to replace human labor.  But I hope it doesn't go that way.  I'd rather see Jasnah struggle with backlash to this - or cleverly defeat potential backlash.

The thing to remember is that the slave economy has probably already had a major crash- they just lost the Parshmen, after all. It probably needs major restructuring now anyway, so it makes sense for Jasnah to see an opportunity to here. 

[+Oltux72]

10 minutes ago, Debarra said:

Removing the slavery in Alethkar society also seems interesting. It would be a way to try and win over Singers as well to their side. 

The rest of the coalition is not going to love her for that. The Azish already had to draft citizens to keep agriculture going.

10 minutes ago, Debarra said:

I think this is the first time we've heard how the war is progressing. I'm surprised they haven't tried to spread further at the Shattered Planes as most of their seems to be free real estate and they already have the starting of an encampment.

Real estate without the people to farm it is useless.

10 minutes ago, Debarra said:

With their new barge and winderunnrs I also would have thought it easier to advance from the East of Alethkar. I may be missing something though.

Calculate how many carts you could pull with all those chulls.

[Rainier]

11 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I will be interested to see how Sanderson handles this one.  Even though freeing slaves is objectively a good thing, it's not an easy thing and crass as it may seem to say it does have serious negative societal effects in the short term which is why it took years and years to do in real history.

I'm hoping we see some real pushback, because it seems like the Alethi version of slavery is closer to the Roman one than what we think of in the antebellum south. And there are plenty of great thinkers throughout the ages who argued that slavery was a good thing, so saying it's objectively a good thing is projecting modernity into fantasy. There's a reason why slavery existed for millennia across all kinds of societies, and that's because labor is valuable, and scarce. If we free all the slaves because Good Queen Jasnah is concerned with their wellbeing, I'll retch from the cloying morality play. There needs to be significant economic reasons in play for this to be earned. Fortunately, it seems like we're at the cusp of an industrial revolution which, much like our own world, will free labor more than any abolitionist ever could. We've even seen this at least once in RoW, where we see that darkeyes are upset at carrying water, calling that parshmen work. Then the lighteyes get upset for having to do darkeyed work. And so on. The work needs to be done, and it will be done by slaves or parshmen until a machine can do it instead.

You can free the slaves, but there's no free lunch. Even if you get the fabrials to do it, you're just trading enslaved humans for enslaved spren. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

I don't think there's much as difference between Machiavellian and Utilitarian as you seem to think. Both are rational and unemotional, the difference is between selfishness and selflessness. Since I don't think Jasnah is either purely selfish or purely selfless, they're both good frames through which to view her actions and decisions.

I'd also say the scene you forgot to mention is the one where she advocated killing the singers to prevent them from being taken over by Odium. That's pretty Machiavellian.

Not really. Machiavelli was being sarcastic.

 

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I think her choice makes a certain amount of sense - make the change while everyone's already off kilter and don't allow them to re-entrench themselves into a new norm that doesn't fit what you want.  But I agree - rapid, widespread social reforms are generally a recipe for disaster.  They're usually the cause (or result) of civil war and revolution.

I can't see the slave owners (aka all or most members of the middle and upper classes) of Alethkar just sitting idly by while they are economically ruined by the loss of their slaves.  There are really only three options for freeing slaves:

1) Set slaves free, no money changes hands, resulting in the economic ruin of slaveholders who had invested large amounts of money into purchasing the slaves.  If you've got a certain political inclination, that probably sounds pretty good - raise up the common man and bring down the rich and powerful.  On the other hand, the destabilization of your economy collapsing when most major businesses simultaneously fail is a pretty big downside.

2) Set the slaves free, but require them to pay back a slave debt to their former masters.  This would prevent complete economic collapse, but would result in those slaves still being effectively slaves as they work to escape a debt they can never truly repay.  At least their children would be free.

3) Set the slaves free, with the former slave owners reimbursed by the government.  This could work, but probably depends on the financial state of the Alethkar kingdom.

I will be interested to see how Sanderson handles this one.  Even though freeing slaves is objectively a good thing, it's not an easy thing and crass as it may seem to say it does have serious negative societal effects in the short term which is why it took years and years to do in real history.  I guess the easy way out would be for Navani to invent fabrials to take the place of the slaves and allow economies to continue by using machines to replace human labor.  But I hope it doesn't go that way.  I'd rather see Jasnah struggle with backlash to this - or cleverly defeat potential backlash.

Alethkar does not seem to practice human chattel slavery. So the children are already born free. Slaves get paid and can already buy their own freedom, so two is already in force.

That leaves one and three as options, and ignores the problem of criminal convictions. Of course, she could do a thirteenth amendment and allow for the enslavement of convicts...

[Rainier]

25 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Not really. Machiavelli was being sarcastic.

So what? He was also rational, ruthless, and self interested, which are the qualities most associated with his name.

[Subvisual Haze]

3 hours ago, robardin said:

 

Egad. Because if she really thinks logically about utilitarianism - and she is a very logical scholar - she might reach this conclusion!

This is really good,  thanks for sharing.  Now to read all of Kierkegaard strips.

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

The thing to remember is that the slave economy has probably already had a major crash- they just lost the Parshmen, after all. It probably needs major restructuring now anyway, so it makes sense for Jasnah to see an opportunity to here. 

Definitely a fair point - the labor market has already been overturned.  So it may be possible to accommodate more change.  Then again, removing all slave labor may collapse an already weakened system too.

@Rainier @Kingsdaughter613 - Looks like you are both on the same page with the Roman style slavery thought.  I agree - I even thought about including that in my post but deleted it for sake of not introducing too much stuff at once.  The Alethkar system of slavery is not the "most evil" version of slavery that we've seen, slaves still have certain rights.  It may make for an easier transition out of the slave economy since slaves are technically owed a wage already.

Without diving into a general discussion of Jasnah, I'll just say I think this is a good opportunity for her character.  Either she will prove that yet again she's a super genius who's thought of everything and has a plan to deal with all consequences or she will suffer a bit of a setback.  I personally think she is going to face a bit of pushback.  She's pushing a lot of changes - all motivated by the idea of doing what is right, for sure, but this is a lot to convince people about all at once.  People in general have a tendency to disagree about what is best for themselves.  We see it in the real world all the time.  I think we have to see at least some pushback.  It might be a pretty minor plot, but it seems like a very Odium thing to do to flame up a revolution over something like this.

 

[Necessary Eagle]

9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

"Stormfather, enhance!"

Dalinar and Shallan making the map:

 

I was thinking Google Maps and Street View, myself.

[Potus]

I really hope we get a scene with Ash and Shallan where they get to discuss Lightweaving together. Tips and tricks, all the juicy details! 

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm hoping we see some real pushback, because it seems like the Alethi version of slavery is closer to the Roman one than what we think of in the antebellum south. And there are plenty of great thinkers throughout the ages who argued that slavery was a good thing, so saying it's objectively a good thing is projecting modernity into fantasy. There's a reason why slavery existed for millennia across all kinds of societies, and that's because labor is valuable, and scarce. If we free all the slaves because Good Queen Jasnah is concerned with their wellbeing, I'll retch from the cloying morality play. There needs to be significant economic reasons in play for this to be earned. Fortunately, it seems like we're at the cusp of an industrial revolution which, much like our own world, will free labor more than any abolitionist ever could. We've even seen this at least once in RoW, where we see that darkeyes are upset at carrying water, calling that parshmen work. Then the lighteyes get upset for having to do darkeyed work. And so on. The work needs to be done, and it will be done by slaves or parshmen until a machine can do it instead.

You can free the slaves, but there's no free lunch. Even if you get the fabrials to do it, you're just trading enslaved humans for enslaved spren. 

I do not think that an argument along the lines of "that someone once thought and argued that slaver was good, and they where considered smart so they cant he wrong" is a good tactic to take. From slavery is objectivly bad, i think the argument boils down to inteligence vs labour. If all your citizens are slaves  they are not educated and of they are not educated they are not using the best resource for the betterment for society  after all it is our brains that seperate us from everyone else.

To put this thought more succinctly, to remove slavery is a step towards .ore free citizens, that are able to learn and improve society by more than the sweat of their brow. How many Ramanujans have been lost to the world because of slavery. Technological advancements far outweigh any increase in labour force, look at what computers have done. While slaves dont stop technogical advances, having all of those slaves as free citizens able to be educated certainly speeds up the rate of technological advancements, qnd hence is an objectivly good thing to do. 

[IcaroRibeiro]

Alethi slaves are low-paid labor, but they are treated like humans still. They have some human rights and get a paycheck, and they can own property and buy other goods. In this sense, alethi slaves are not private property of the noble caste, rather a group of people subjected to a compulsory work regime for whatever reason. I'm also not sure if slaves children are born slaves like their parents

This chapter shows even ardents are see as slaves, so Alethi society might have a broader definition of slaverism 

Perhaps, the definition most of you have in mind about what a slave is supposed to be is most fit to how singers were used, as they were treated like a cattle. Indeed they weren't beaten and gagged like common slaves, but torture a Parshman would be like torture a horse or any other farm animal. 

Remember for many low-born darkeyes are forbidden some basic rights, like travel rights. Slaves are essentially darkeyes with even lower income whose workforce rights were sold for someone willing to pay for them. Jasnah probably thinks no human person should be treated like a commodity to be sold and submitted to another person's ill, she wants to abolish this compulsory bondage system. Look the bridge-crews, the system worked because slaves couldn't refuse their lord's commands, not unless you want to be hanged

So she's essentially turning the already low-paid compulsory workers in low-paid non-compulsory and non-tradable workers. 

[Karger]

On 10/27/2020 at 11:16 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

but they are treated like humans still

Sometimes.  Bridge four would tend to disagree.

On 10/27/2020 at 11:16 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

and they can own property and buy other goods

In theory.

On 10/27/2020 at 11:16 PM, IcaroRibeiro said:

This chapter shows even ardents are see as slaves, so Alethi society might have a broader definition of slaverism 

Not exactly.  Modern views of slavery are shaped by plantation slavery common in the Americas.  However in Rome it was not uncommon for slaves to own property or be highly educated.  Slave can mean a lot of things.  Ardents are technically slaves.  It was a precaution put in place by the sunmaker after he overthrew the theocratic government.  They are also forbidden to fight, own property or participate in politics.  As Jasnah points out they are even starting to regain some political power although it is indirect.  Ardents can leave at any time they wish and by virtue of training and place are too valuable to mistreat.  The same can not be said for all slaves

Janah's actions may actually not even be a first.  It was mentioned by Rosk that in Taravangian's Kharbranth there are no slaves.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Karger

[Knight Oblivion]

I'm now very curious as to whether there are Stonewards on the side of the Coalition. We know they have the Windrunners, Edgedancers, Lightweavers, Truthwatchers, Bondsmith (de facto since there's only one we know), Elsecaller (ditto), and rebellious Dustbringers. They've all be mentioned earlier. We also know that the Skybreakers (minus only Szeth apparently) are on the Singers' side and Willshapers aren't really reformed yet.

So, are the Stonewards simply non-existent still? It seems like the most plausible explanation for the lack of mention.