RoW Chapter 17 Discussion

[Aon Tia]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

The Ashynite expansion probably followed colonial patterns.  This means that groups of people of similar ethnicity and customs travel together.  The Shin stayed behind for the same reason and over time both groups grew more distinct.

Yea it is possible and probable that there were people from more than one ethnicity in Ashyn that came to Roshar. 
Shins might have stayed true to the original agreement while others might have decided to invade and expand. 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, the_archduke said:

There may also be other humans that came to Roshar after the initial wave from Ashyn.  Aren't the Iriali supposed to be from somewhere else?

Yes they are a different migration. 

[Gilphon]

1 minute ago, Nahema said:

I have a question concerning the Shin. It is always pointed out how different they are - in looks and in culture. In this chapter too.

Yet, if I understood correctly, Shinovar was the land that was given to the human refugees from Ashyn. But the humans got greedy and took over the whole planet. 
So, how did it happen that you have two different human peoples?

I‘m very curious for book 5 (and 4,6,7,8,9, and 10 of course  ).

There are lots of different human peoples on Roshar. They've had ten thousand years to diversify their cultures. And the Shin in particular have been isolationist for quite some time, leading to their culture not being directly influenced by anyone else's, and there's relatively little intermarriage with outsiders, so they maintain a distinctive appearance. 

(In addition, I suspect that Cultivation's presence means evolution happens faster on Roshar, so the humans who left Shinovar have evolved to be slightly better suited for Roshar's environment. Which in particular means epicanthal folds to deal with wind, hence why the Shin are always mentioned as having large, round eyes. Although since there's no mention of Ash and Taln having Shin eyes this chapter, those were probably reasonable common among Ashynites to begin with)

[Doneil]

Its possible the mink is a spy, something seems fishy about it

[IcaroRibeiro]

Oh Jasnah you are so incredible

Sanderson please give us more POV from this woman, I'm needy for more chapters of her

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Doneil said:

Its possible the mink is a spy, something seems fishy about it

On 10/21/2020 at 0:09 AM, Karger said:

STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS!

I cannot believe we all missed this(at least no one I have seen proposed this).

I do not think the Mink is evil.  I do not think he is unethical.  However I do think he would not be the first patriot to cut a deal betraying two nations he does not like.  Taravangian has largely been made.  Who would suspect the Mink?  Playing larger empires against each other must be a science in Herdaz by now.  No way that nation has survived without doing so several times.

 

[+Weux082690]

My thoughts:

* It is way too early to begin speculating on Jasnah/Wit. But then again I have never been that emotionally invested in the characters' relationships.

* Jasnah becoming more Cosmere-aware and becoming a worldhopper who is involved in books past Stormlight is a theory I support.

* Asking Szeth about what the Shin know and why they are so hostile is a smart move. I would be surprized to hear nobody on Team Kholin has thought of it.

* Theory: the Iri joined Odium because he appeared to them and convinced them he was the One.

[Kingsdaughter613]

47 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah good call. That's what I thought of too. I hope the Mink isn't double-crossing them. I guess since his wife and child were killed in a war with Alethkar (or implied to have) he has a lot of hate in him and motive to hurt Dalinar. RoW Ch. 16:

He did withstand the Singers onslaught surprisingly well. Maybe a little too well. Like they've been building him up as this great general, when they are letting him live and get minor victories to increase his reputation. I'm hoping he's a secret radiant or something and not a villain. 

It is his idea to attack, but it's based on troop movements. This could be a coordinated thing between the Mink and the Fused. I hope not though. 

It could mean the Fused have some VERY good strategists working for them. They know Dalinar was an accomplished general. Deliberately arranging your troops to encourage an attack where YOU want it is an old trick. It’s entirely possible that both Dalinar (who knew retaking Alethkar wouldn’t work; he’s just emotionally attached) and the Mink are being conned.

[Govir]

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

How do we know?  Don't misunderstand I hope they are not but until someone does us the favor of asking we have absolutely no way of knowing.

Jasnah probably wants to make sure the army is loyal to her personally.  It is easily the most important political force in alethkar to this day.  Also being a general is a good way to make absolutely certain that she is taken seriously as queen when participating in the "masculine" field of politics.

Ok, fine. We don't "know", but it is *highly* unlikely. Hoid has said in the past (of Shallan) "She is far too young for me." That still holds true for Jasnah.

[Gilphon]

It's weird to me that we're apparently not going to get heavily into the Shinovar stuff until book 5; I always felt like an Oathgate, seven Honorblades, and an easily defendable country with lots of fertile land and no Singers would be a prize that the coalition would want to get their hands on ASAP. Six of those Honorblades are not as important now that Radiants are more common, but having another Bondsmith would be huge. And now we have Jasnah bringing it up as a priority. 

I guess with dealing with Emul and Tukar is gonna take up a significant chunk of this book? I don't know, it just seems weird to establish Shinovar as Jasnah's goal now if that's not going to really happen this book.

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

There are lots of different human peoples on Roshar. They've had ten thousand years to diversify their cultures. And the Shin in particular have been isolationist for quite some time, leading to their culture not being directly influenced by anyone else's, and there's relatively little intermarriage with outsiders, so they maintain a distinctive appearance. 

(In addition, I suspect that Cultivation's presence means evolution happens faster on Roshar, so the humans who left Shinovar have evolved to be slightly better suited for Roshar's environment. Which in particular means epicanthal folds to deal with wind, hence why the Shin are always mentioned as having large, round eyes. Although since there's no mention of Ash and Taln having Shin eyes this chapter, those were probably reasonable common among Ashynites to begin with)

Ash is mentioned to have Shin eyes.

[Honorless]

51 minutes ago, cfphelps said:

Do we actually know WHAT those weapons are shaped like though?  I know we've heard about the ones that can discharge a radiant, but have we seen the ones that can block a shard blade described yet?  My interpretation of the disagreement was magic cutting vs. physical cutting.  I thought Peter's point was that if the aluminum is thin enough like foil, the shard blade could smash through anyway just based on physics.  So in this case, if the aluminum is thick enough to withstand the physics then it might be Peter won.  You might also be able to combine them such that a thin sheet of aluminum foil over steel can stop a shard blade because the steel supports the foil from physically breaking, and the foil prevents the shard blade from magically cutting through the steel.  I see that as compatible with Peter's position as well.  So I guess my point is we may not know enough about the weapons to see which way that really fell?  if it's a super thin piece of aluminum with no support, but it magically prevents being cut and doesn't break behind a sword swing, then I'd say Brandon won.  If it's an aluminum covering or inlay that is supported by something strong enough to withstand the physical force of a sword attack, then I'd say Peter did.

The spears that the shanay-im used seemed to have an aluminium core running through it, coming out the tip as the spearhead

[Gilphon]

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Ash is mentioned to have Shin eyes.

I stand corrected. Missed that detail in the description. Still, Taln doesn't seem to have Shin eyes, so my overall point stands. Really, Ash looking like a mix of Shin and Makibaki strengthens my 'faster evolution' theory.

[Doneil]

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

It just seems to perfect a situation to me, with his ability to escape undetected it wouldnt be hard for him to release important information. Anyone who knows the blackthorn would know that the help of a talented general and tactician would be appealing to him and would be a good way to get into the high ranks very quickly, we still don't know details about exactly what happened in Herdaz. Almost instantly the mink was able to divert everyone away from the original objective, Alethkar. His reasons made sense but it seemed to easy.

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I stand corrected. Missed that detail in the description. Still, Taln doesn't seem to have Shin eyes, so my overall point stands. Really, Ash looking like a mix of Shin and Makibaki strengthens my 'faster evolution' theory.

Taln is drawn with Shin eyes in the SA game. Notable, because other characters are drawn with epicanthic folds - even in the same picture. Also because some (at least one) of the cards had elements from RoW.

The cards are the first place I’ve really seen Rosharans consistently depicted as having epicanthic folds, so Taln having Shin eyes there is pretty noticeable.

[IcaroRibeiro]

43 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

There are lots of different human peoples on Roshar. They've had ten thousand years to diversify their cultures. And the Shin in particular have been isolationist for quite some time, leading to their culture not being directly influenced by anyone else's, and there's relatively little intermarriage with outsiders, so they maintain a distinctive appearance. 

(In addition, I suspect that Cultivation's presence means evolution happens faster on Roshar, so the humans who left Shinovar have evolved to be slightly better suited for Roshar's environment. Which in particular means epicanthal folds to deal with wind, hence why the Shin are always mentioned as having large, round eyes. Although since there's no mention of Ash and Taln having Shin eyes this chapter, those were probably reasonable common among Ashynites to begin with)

Ash was mentioned as having Shin features 

[Diomedes]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

4 hours ago, Pattern said:

And a roadmap to book 5. First get a hold in the Makabaki region. Shinovar might be dealt with in book 5 - Szeth's book.

That's what I noticed out in front. Here's the outline for the next two books, just casually dropped in our laps. 

That is what we are led to expect. These expectations could be subverted by a plot twist (Fused taking Urithiru, rebellions from the highprinces etc.). I hope for the subversion tbh. 

Also what did Wit tell Jasnah that she does not communicate  to us? Does he not know so many more things about the Radiants and their powers, Odium and the secret of Roshar? 

I got the feeling Wit, Jasnah and Odium play some four dimensional chess with everyone else as their pawns.  

Edited October 27, 2020 by Diomedes

[Friendshipspren]

3 hours ago, Bliev said:

Boy, I have to say, I would *LOVE* a Wit/Jasnah fling. Just for funsies. I don't think Brandon has the "casual fling without any strings attached" in him though. Jasnah, as pragmatic as she is, surely would if she had the inclination and felt safe enough to engage, but my guess is that there's no actual relationship between them save information sharing and ally ship. But I'm having fun imagining this one. So much wit. So much snark. 

U know that's literally the first thought I had when navani mentioned rumors. Thst they have a FwB relationship. Hopefully Brandon will either say they are just friends or leave it ambiguous . 

 

3 hours ago, The Traveller said:

 

Well, I dare say I like the mink. And something tells me that so will Dalinar. 
There are rumours about Jasnah and Wit! Raised eyebrows. I want Jasnadin not jasnit. 
 

 

Yes he wasn't passive aggressive this time. I think he will be great.

And yes. Jasnadin is the only way. If they are dating , they better break up soon. 

[+Child of Hodor]

51 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I stand corrected. Missed that detail in the description. Still, Taln doesn't seem to have Shin eyes, so my overall point stands. Really, Ash looking like a mix of Shin and Makibaki strengthens my 'faster evolution' theory.

I think your point stands as well. The Shin look different from every other modern nationality, very pale skin and "big eyes" (no epicanthal folds). They are very isolated from everyone else both by the mountains and their culture.  Ash was either born on Ashyn or shortly after the exodus. She probably grew up in Shinovar during the brief time where the humans actually stayed in Shinovar, maybe that's why she hung out there later on.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/372/#e11945

As far as whether they get to Shinovar now, it seemed like their plan is to secure Emuli first to provide a better base to approach Shinovar from. This probably won't work out with the Fused wanting to attack Urithiru. They'll have to try to get back to the tower to fend off the attack or more likely they'll lose the tower in Part 2 or 3 and the rest of the book they'll be more focused on retaking the tower then on Shinovar. 

[Crucible of Shards]

Am I the only one who though Jasnah was sending Wit to fetch ALL TEN Heralds like it was no big deal? At least until he came back?

Just, “Ok, I’ll go do that your majesty.”

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, robardin said:

They have a Shin in custody, who if they asked, would tell them he had trained with most if not all the Honorblades in their possession ("Szeth had trained in all ten Surges"). So a question of, "Hey, what have the Shin figured out about using the Bondsmith powers of Ishar?" actually could have an answer without sending someone to Shin who manages to come back.

Ash says that the Shin "had legends... prophecies about the coming of this Return." So when they made Szeth Truthless, it wasn't denying that there would be one... Just that it hadn't happened yet? That seems flimsier.

Skybreakers have been "harrying Azir", requiring us to keep "dedicating forces" in that region. Forces... Of Windrunners? Who else could hold off flying Radiants? Or is the Mink correct in that they are only there to serve as a distraction?

 

1 hour ago, Weux082690 said:

* Asking Szeth about what the Shin know and why they are so hostile is a smart move. I would be surprized to hear nobody on Team Kholin has thought of it.

I'd say there are several reasons why they haven't gotten much out of Szeth. First, as the previous chapter showed, the Kholins still resent Szeth for killing Gavilar. Navani, who seems to have had a worse relationship with Gavliar than we knew, can barely tolerate being around him. Now, her nausea was likely due to Nightblood, but even so she clearly doesn't like him which means it's even worse for the others who still revere Gavilar. Second, Szeth himself doesn't seem to volunteer much information as evidenced with how long it took them to get information on the dark sphere Gavilar gave him. Tertiary to that, Szeth isn't mentally stable, so what information he does offer they probably don't completely trust. Third, some of these things he probably just doesn't know. The information about the prophecies came from Ash. Szeth might not have been of the proper station/rank/role in their society to be privy to that information. 

Szeth did say he was trained in all 10 Surges which means he had to of used Ishar's Honorblade. Given that the Stonewards share a Surge with Bondsmiths and Taln's Honorblade was not in their possession, if Szeth has indeed been trained on all the Surges he had to of used that blade at some point. So, for that one at least, I don't see why they couldn't have asked him some direct questions about it. Which means either they just haven't done that and I look forward to seeing why or they did ask him and he didn't have anything that was helpful. Might be he only trained on it for combat purposes and wasn't allowed to experiment in other ways.  

 

[Subvisual Haze]

"the most possible good for the most people" oh no Jasnah is a utilitarian!  Hopefully she starts estimating future policy impacts in terms of Utils/person/cost. 

Historically enlightened despots attempting to quickly enact widespread social reforms have not had much success. Hope it goes better for Queen Jasnah than it did for Emperor Joseph II.

Edited October 27, 2020 by Subvisual Haze

[Aon Tia]

45 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

If they are dating , they better break up soon. 

I really doubt it. Fwb may be but I find that very unlikely too. 

[Pathfinder]

Just nice to be validated on Jasnah's Queenship being beneficial to her people, advocating social justice, and not being a tool of Dalinar.This is now the third thing that I have been harping on for years that has become reality in Rhythm of War. With a fourth I believe will be a very real possibility.

 

spoilering for personal posterity

Spoiler

1. Amaram (confirmed by Mraize)

2. Synthetic gemstones and fabrial industrial revolution

3. Jasnah's Queenship

4. Dalinar being able to affect radiant bonds will help Adolin revive Maya

 

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Doneil]

5 hours ago, yulerule said:

Regarding Lyn's and Alice's speculations from the Tor Discussion, my thoughts copied over from Tor thread:

 

Regarding Jasnah and Hoid. I think we’re seeing this from Navani’s point of view, plus the rumors, and everyone is making the incorrect assumption. I feel like maybe Hoid has been telling Jasnah something. About the Cosmere, or Realmatics, or something.  And she probably knows that he’s more than he lets on. I have no idea what information Hoid’s been sharing with Jasnah, but that’s probably what causes others to assume else is going on.

I was thinking this same thing when I read that, I might be wrong but I can't see either one being interested in eachother romantically, Hoid is obviously coaching her and teaching her about the cosmere, Navani knows next to nothing about the cosmere or Hoids place in it so she couldn't possibly understand Jasnahs interest in Hoid. I would even speculate Hoid is the influencer in Jasnah freeing the Alethi slaves.