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RoW Chapter 17 Discussion


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OH, and did anyone else catch that Jasnah would go to Makabak herself if the war went there? This aligns with the goal to lure "the queen and the bond smith" out of Urithiru. 

 

Edited to add:

@I Am A Fish agreed. perhaps she doesn't live. This book being "eshonai's" book is demonstrative of that idea too. But the fact that her flashbacks are book 10 suggests her cosmere awareness, given that book 10 is likely VERY cosmere centric in its implications.

Edited by Bliev
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8 minutes ago, Bliev said:

OH, and did anyone else catch that Jasnah would go to Makabak herself if the war went there? This aligns with the goal to lure "the queen and the bond smith" out of Urithiru

I think it is very likely the situation. Also it appears that book 4 ending will be playing across different locations at the same time. 

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1 hour ago, Pattern said:

And a roadmap to book 5. First get a hold in the Makabaki region. Shinovar might be dealt with in book 5 - Szeth's book.

That's what I noticed out in front. Here's the outline for the next two books, just casually dropped in our laps. 

Just now, Bliev said:

This aligns with the goal to lure "the queen and the bond smith" out of Urithiru. 

Who is whispering in Jasnah's ear that she needs to go wage the war personally?

 

Quote

“Excellent,” Jasnah said. “If we do bring a large offensive into Emul, then I will attend personally and join the war effort there.”

“…You will?” Dalinar said. “And how… involved do you intend to be in the prosecution of the war?”

“As involved as seems appropriate.”

He sighed, and Navani knew what he was thinking. If Jasnah tried to join in wartime planning and strategy too forcefully, the highprinces wouldn’t like it. But Dalinar couldn’t complain, not after what he’d done.

I can't help but laugh. Dalinar is worried about the Highprinces. Meanwhile I just want to see Jasnah soulcast an entire army to smoke at once. "As involved as seems appropraite," says the woman who thought it was appropriate to lure thugs into attacking her so she could soulcast them into smoke as a demonstration to her ward. Yeah, "appropriate involvement," from Jasnah. 

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3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I can't help but laugh. Dalinar is worried about the Highprinces. Meanwhile I just want to see Jasnah soulcast an entire army to smoke at once. "As involved as seems appropraite," says the woman who thought it was appropriate to lure thugs into attacking her so she could soulcast them into smoke as a demonstration to her ward. Yeah, "appropriate involvement," from Jasnah. 

"Jasnah, did you just destroy the enemy position by yourself in full Shardplate?"
(shrugs) "Seemed appropriate"

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10 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I can't help but laugh. Dalinar is worried about the Highprinces. Meanwhile I just want to see Jasnah soulcast an entire army to smoke at once. "As involved as seems appropraite," says the woman who thought it was appropriate to lure thugs into attacking her so she could soulcast them into smoke as a demonstration to her ward. Yeah, "appropriate involvement," from Jasnah. 

4 minutes ago, TMC29ZX said:

"Jasnah, did you just destroy the enemy position by yourself in full Shardplate?"
(shrugs) "Seemed appropriate"

"I think that we have different definitions of 'appropriate involvement'. Honor was dead. I had to see what I could do."

 

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Did anyone else have a map of Roshar open while they were reading this chapter?

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

6) Ishar's forces are behind enemy lines, who are sandwiched between him & the coalition over in Emul. I think this might be where the Skybreakers who joined Odium under Nale's guidance strike. Nale still listens to Ishar.

This is a pretty good theory. I also suspect it might have something to do with the Nine not fully trusting the Skybreakers. Granted, Odium can make some strong deals, and I imagine it must be difficult to lie to him, not to mention the Skybreakers in general don't do well with any forms of spycraft. However, they are stationed in Azir, which is on the other side of the planet from Kholinar, which puts a lot of distance between the Skybreakers and the major Fused leadership.

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1 hour ago, Govir said:

I mean, we know they're not, but I can definitely see how the in-world characters could think that's what's going on.

How do we know?  Don't misunderstand I hope they are not but until someone does us the favor of asking we have absolutely no way of knowing.

Jasnah probably wants to make sure the army is loyal to her personally.  It is easily the most important political force in alethkar to this day.  Also being a general is a good way to make absolutely certain that she is taken seriously as queen when participating in the "masculine" field of politics.

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2 hours ago, Innovation said:

Investigating the Shin is something I am all for. I know we will learn about them in detail in Szeth’s book, but more information about them will be interesting.

They have a Shin in custody, who if they asked, would tell them he had trained with most if not all the Honorblades in their possession ("Szeth had trained in all ten Surges"). So a question of, "Hey, what have the Shin figured out about using the Bondsmith powers of Ishar?" actually could have an answer without sending someone to Shin who manages to come back.

Ash says that the Shin "had legends... prophecies about the coming of this Return." So when they made Szeth Truthless, it wasn't denying that there would be one... Just that it hadn't happened yet? That seems flimsier.

Skybreakers have been "harrying Azir", requiring us to keep "dedicating forces" in that region. Forces... Of Windrunners? Who else could hold off flying Radiants? Or is the Mink correct in that they are only there to serve as a distraction?

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33 minutes ago, Bliev said:

OH, and did anyone else catch that Jasnah would go to Makabak herself if the war went there? This aligns with the goal to lure "the queen and the bond smith" out of Urithiru. 

I had not made that connection, actually. Well done!

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

This is obviously the most important take away from the chapter.  It will probably become one of the most hotly debated topics until we get a strait answer but.  Are Jasnah and Hoid a thing?

LET THE JASNOID/HOIDSNAH SHIPPING WARS COMMENCE!

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7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Who else is thinking Worldhopper Jasnah after reading this chapter?

I've been thinking that since Words of Radiance, but it would take some time. I don't think Jasnah would up and leave Roshar if there was no one to take her place as monarch of Alethkar, especially not when there's a risk of someone overturining her decision to abolish slavery.

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Do you think he did this on purpose? Dropped Navani's theory/rumor there because he knows how his fandom gets about shipping? Because it really  seems like it was teed up beautifully for these boards. :lol:

(And I know I am way too Very Online now because my response to half of the comments I'm reading is popping into my head as memes.)

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34 minutes ago, Bliev said:

OH, and did anyone else catch that Jasnah would go to Makabak herself if the war went there? This aligns with the goal to lure "the queen and the bond smith" out of Urithiru. 

 

Edited to add:

@I Am A Fish agreed. perhaps she doesn't live. This book being "eshonai's" book is demonstrative of that idea too. But the fact that her flashbacks are book 10 suggests her cosmere awareness, given that book 10 is likely VERY cosmere centric in its implications.

Yeah good call. That's what I thought of too. I hope the Mink isn't double-crossing them. I guess since his wife and child were killed in a war with Alethkar (or implied to have) he has a lot of hate in him and motive to hurt Dalinar. RoW Ch. 16:

Quote

The Mink watched the exchange with a smile. “Ah… reminds me of my own son and his wife.”

“I should hope,” Dalinar said, “they are a little less frivolous.”

“They’re dead, in the war,” the Mink said softly.

“I’m sorry,” Dalinar said. “The Everstorm and Odium have cost us all much.”

“Not that war, Blackthorn.” The Mink gave him a look laden with implication. 

He did withstand the Singers onslaught surprisingly well. Maybe a little too well. Like they've been building him up as this great general, when they are letting him live and get minor victories to increase his reputation. I'm hoping he's a secret radiant or something and not a villain. 

It is his idea to attack, but it's based on troop movements. This could be a coordinated thing between the Mink and the Fused. I hope not though. 

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2 hours ago, Honorless said:

1) 

The simplest Fused weapon against us isn’t truly a fabrial, but instead a metal that is extremely light and can withstand the blows of a Shardblade. This metal resists being Soulcast as well; it interferes with a great number of Radiant powers.

Fortunately, the Fused seem unable to create it in great quantities—for they equip only themselves, and not their average soldiers, with these wonders.

Aluminium!

Also, sounds like Brandon won

 

Do we actually know WHAT those weapons are shaped like though?  I know we've heard about the ones that can discharge a radiant, but have we seen the ones that can block a shard blade described yet?  My interpretation of the disagreement was magic cutting vs. physical cutting.  I thought Peter's point was that if the aluminum is thin enough like foil, the shard blade could smash through anyway just based on physics.  So in this case, if the aluminum is thick enough to withstand the physics then it might be Peter won.  You might also be able to combine them such that a thin sheet of aluminum foil over steel can stop a shard blade because the steel supports the foil from physically breaking, and the foil prevents the shard blade from magically cutting through the steel.  I see that as compatible with Peter's position as well.  So I guess my point is we may not know enough about the weapons to see which way that really fell?  if it's a super thin piece of aluminum with no support, but it magically prevents being cut and doesn't break behind a sword swing, then I'd say Brandon won.  If it's an aluminum covering or inlay that is supported by something strong enough to withstand the physical force of a sword attack, then I'd say Peter did.

2 hours ago, Karger said:

This is obviously the most important take away from the chapter.  It will probably become one of the most hotly debated topics until we get a strait answer but.  Are Jasnah and Hoid a thing?

Haha, I definitely had a raised eyebrow with that part!  I agree with what others have posted though, that since Jasnah is aware of Wit being more than he seems based on their end of WoR interactions, and she's becoming more and more cosmere aware, it makes sense she'd make use of his council and there would be much for them to discuss.  A male and female being seen together having secretive discussions can definitely lead to rumors of romance when there may be none.

2 hours ago, yulerule said:

Regarding Lyn's and Alice's speculations from the Tor Discussion, my thoughts copied over from Tor thread:

 

Regarding Jasnah and Hoid. I think we’re seeing this from Navani’s point of view, plus the rumors, and everyone is making the incorrect assumption. I feel like maybe Hoid has been telling Jasnah something. About the Cosmere, or Realmatics, or something.  And she probably knows that he’s more than he lets on. I have no idea what information Hoid’s been sharing with Jasnah, but that’s probably what causes others to assume else is going on.

Exactly!

2 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

I love Ash’s nonchalance/irritability when discussing things that, while commonplace to her, are completely dumbfounding to others XD

Just any Ash scene really

scenes like this are what ive been waiting for since ive first read SA

Me too!  I definitely had the thought about how the immoral herald development might work.  Her personality might still be immature from never really "growing up" to full adult hood before getting the immortal Herald gig where she physically developed to a certain spot but maybe didn't develop as far mentally.  Or maybe that's just how she is, or part of her insanity.  She obviously hates being worshipped, being short with people might help dissuade them.

12 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Do you think he did this on purpose? Dropped Navani's theory/rumor there because he knows how his fandom gets about shipping? Because it really  seems like it was teed up beautifully for these boards. :lol:

(And I know I am way too Very Online now because my response to half of the comments I'm reading is popping into my head as memes.)

At this point I'm very convinced that Brandon never does anything in writing by accident!

5 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Yeah good call. That's what I thought of too. I hope the Mink isn't double-crossing them. I guess since his wife and child were killed in a war with Alethkar (or implied to have) he has a lot of hate in him and motive to hurt Dalinar. RoW Ch. 16:

Could definitely see this as well.  It will come down to if he subscribes to the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" way of thinking and sees the Fused and Odium as the bigger threat.  I imagine since he needed to be rescued he knows he can't defeat the fused and Odium on his own, and since he was resisting at all he isn't apt to give into them either.  Joining the coalition would seem to be his best move, but the points you raised also make it a convenient betrayal twist later on that Brandon could give us.

Edited by cfphelps
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I found this chapter a little dull.  It's probably necessary after a timeskip to have these sort of establishing chapters to fill in where the various characters are and what they've been up to.  This one read a bit like a bullet list of story elements to establish (summarize the war situation, Jasnah wants to free the slaves, the Heralds aren't very helpful, Hoid is hanging around Jasnah etc.) but didn't really have any action or much character development.

The Oathpact being destroyed is certainly interesting.  I wonder if the Heralds are going to start aging now and maybe grow/change in their personalities.  Becoming more human again without the Oathpact having deleterious impacts on their personalities..

Jasnah remembering that Alethi caste society kind of sucks and trying to make it better is nice.  I wish Kaladin had been present to voice his support.

Jasnah+Hoid seems like an intentional distraction both to us readers and in world.  Jasnah having the appearance of a possibly intimate partner might dissuade some unwelcome advances from others.

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8 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Jasnah having the appearance of a possibly intimate partner might dissuade some unwelcome advances from others.

I hadn't considered this, but you're right, she's probably using it to her advantage. I don't think their closeness is definitely wrong, but the way Navani throws it into the middle of this meeting makes me feel like it's meant to distract us from some important clue too.

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5 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I found this chapter a little dull.  It's probably necessary after a timeskip to have these sort of establishing chapters to fill in where the various characters are and what they've been up to.  This one read a bit like a bullet list of story elements to establish (summarize the war situation, Jasnah wants to free the slaves, the Heralds aren't very helpful, Hoid is hanging around Jasnah etc.) but didn't really have any action or much character development.

The Oathpact being destroyed is certainly interesting.  I wonder if the Heralds are going to start aging now and maybe grow/change in their personalities.  Becoming more human again without the Oathpact having deleterious impacts on their personalities..

Jasnah remembering that Alethi caste society kind of sucks and trying to make it better is nice.  I wish Kaladin had been present to voice his support.

Jasnah+Hoid seems like an intentional distraction both to us readers and in world.  Jasnah having the appearance of a possibly intimate partner might dissuade some unwelcome advances from others.

I think Ash is wrong about the Oathpact. WoBs says it's not as broken as the Heralds think. 

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/160/#e2898https://wob.coppermind.net/events/160/#e2893https://wob.coppermind.net/events/127/#e5186

Plus why would Odium make a special thing to kill Jezrien if he didn't matter? In Jezrien's current, perpetually drunk state he's the least dangerous Herald that we know of as far as, likely to be of help to the heroes. 

Odium hates him, but what not torture him for fun if he's no threat. Why kill him in a special way so his soul or whatever is trapped in a gem instead of back on Braize if the Oathpact is truly done. 

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I have a question concerning the Shin. It is always pointed out how different they are - in looks and in culture. In this chapter too.

Yet, if I understood correctly, Shinovar was the land that was given to the human refugees from Ashyn. But the humans got greedy and took over the whole planet. 
So, how did it happen that you have two different human peoples?

I‘m very curious for book 5 (and 4,6,7,8,9, and 10 of course ;) ).

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6 minutes ago, Nahema said:

So, how did it happen that you have two different human peoples?

The Ashynite expansion probably followed colonial patterns.  This means that groups of people of similar ethnicity and customs travel together.  The Shin stayed behind for the same reason and over time both groups grew more distinct.

Edited by Karger
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