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RoW Chapter 17 Discussion

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Aluminum in the fused weapons!! AHA!!!

Edited by Nathrangking
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Oh, we're an hour early, due to winter time in Europe...

12 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Aluminum in the fused weapons!! AHA!!!

I wonder if this are war spoils from Kholinar - the aluminum Hoid gave Azure to shield the soulcasters.

Rhythm of War...sponsored by Google Maps ;)

Edited by Pattern
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Jasnah and Wit whispering in meetings huh! Are you besties now?

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Well, God-priest = Ishar confirmed like "hey guys, it's Tuesday"

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4 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Jasnah and Wit whispering in meetings huh! Are you besties now?

It's funny - I thought the queen had enough wit of her own :-P

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1 minute ago, TMC29ZX said:

Well, God-priest = Ishar confirmed like "hey guys, it's Tuesday"

This was actually confirmed in Oathbringer.

But I'm glad to know that Dalinar knows that Taravangian and Malata were behind the attack on Urithiru.

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I, unfortunately, didn’t have the time I would have liked to keep up with the preview chapters. I’ve been reading them, of course, but I haven’t had the time to write up my thoughts on each chapter as it’s been coming out. Let me remedy that this week and catch up on everything I’ve been thinking about since Chapter Six: 

  • Fabrial science. As a reminder, I happened to call the allomantic metal parallels before they became evident. https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/91434-row-chapter-6-discussion/?page=2#comment-1040287 I wrote up some comments in another thread https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/91441-fabrial-metals/?page=9#comment-1072248, and now the epigraphs have moved beyond what I see as true “fabrial science.” Because fabrials appear to function on several different phenomena. Conjoiners and logicspren clocks and things like the gemstone archive appear to be based on technological applications of specific spren interactions; but the core of fabrials seems to be spren manifesting through a gemstone to cause specific effects. There are several parameters involved: different kinds of metal produce different responses in non-sentient spren, and the spren type and gemstone type also appear to play a role, for a nice big cross-referencable table of potential fabrial manifestations. I’m also going to hold out for silver fabrials to help augment the 8 allomantic pure metals (and 8 corresponding alloys) to get us up to 10 types of fabrial metals. Not mentioned in the epigraphs, unfortunately, but I haven’t given up. One last bit on the anti-Radiant fabrial: Navnai notes that it doesn’t have a spren. I agree with her hypothesis that means it’s like soulcasters and oathgates, where a sentient voidspren is a willing participant; she’ll either be able to see it in Shadesmar, or the voidspren left once the fabrial was captured. 
  • Ghostbloods. The more we learn about what’s been going on behind-the-scenes on Roshar, the less it makes sense to me. Why are Ghostbloods killing Alethi highprinces like Thanadal, Vamah, and Ialai Sadeas if they’re truly interested in obtaining Stormlight to take off-world? But anyways, in terms of Ialai’s killer. I don’t think we’ll be able to guess who it is, yet; we haven’t met enough other Lightweavers (although through WoB we know they exist, through Steve Argyle’s stand-in). I think we’ll meet some more of the Order, and it will be one of them. Also, I’ve been rolling the word “Thaidakar” around in my head a little bit. The way the other cosmere planets had extra vowels added to their names (Nalathis, Scadarial) makes me think that, since Alethi don’t like to smash letters together, the name “Thaidakar” may be something more like “Thaidkar.” I’m wondering if that’s a name we’ll eventually recognize, like Temoo = Demoux and Vao = Baon. But Thaidkar = Sidecar is the best I’m able to come up with, and I don’t think the Ghostbloods are run by a motorcycle accessory. But if anyone comes up with a good way to get “Sovereign” out of it, let me know.  
  • Renarin does something odd with the Spiritual Realm in Chapter Eight. I suspect it’s Illumination, something very much like what Shallan has done in seeing the good in people (like the people she inspired on the Shattered Plains) and drawing things she has no business knowing (like Shallash or the survivors of the Wind’s Pleasure). 
  • Navani’s Message. Someone is mad about fabrials on behalf of the spren. There are two ways I can see this going. 1) This is the Sibling, who is a fabrial wildcard and can willingly mimic any fabrial effect in any gemstone. The concern is that overuse of fabrial technology will destroy Roshar the same way overuse of magic destroyed Ashyn (through interrupting the natural cycles of Investiture), and Navani’s plot will involve her reconciling with, reawakening, and bonding the Sibling. 2) This is entirely a deception by someone seeking to undermine the Radiants, imitating a spren (maybe even the Sibling itself). I am currently partial to Navani as a Willshaper candidate, so I’m tentatively leaning towards option 2, but we’ll see where the plot goes. 
  • Willshapers. Rlain’s rejection of a Windrunner spren makes me think he’s being set up for a Willshaper spren, as a specific avenue for Venli and co.’s unification with the rest of the Radiants. (And I’ll ship Vlain, while I’m at it.) That’s the one thing standing in my way on Navani as a Willshaper; it seems like, for now, all the Willshaper spren are going to line up and bond singers. But the Reachers we saw in OB didn’t have a dislike of humans, so maybe there’s no reason both humans and singers can be Willshapers together. 
  • Voidlight. I actually did manage to get this out into a post of its own https://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/92597-gavilars-sphere-and-refined-investiture/#comment-1096372. I’ll spare you the details here, but I think that the mystery Voidlight from Gavilar’s sphere is the fulfillment of what Mraize is looking for with getting Stormlight off-world. Gavilar, who Mraize believes was trying to do the same thing, managed to get it transformed and refined to take it off-world. I know the voidpsren/Fused/Unmade theories are still pretty popular about Gavilar’s spheres, but I think the textual evidence has leaned pretty convincingly towards Voidlight. OB had three big clues: Eshonai in the prologue identifying them as the light of the “king of the gods,” the actual appearance of Voidlight through the Fused using it, and the actual capture of an Unmade in a gemstone. The first two pointed towards Voidlight, the third pointed towards Invested entity. But now Rhythm of War has moved away from that; Voidlight spheres from alternate sources are directly compared to Gavilar’s spheres by people knowledgeable (Navani and Rlain), and Gavilar and his associates were expressly mentioned to be experimenting with Light (not Voidlight or Stormlight, just Light, which encompasses both). And a knowledgeable in-world sources who now had access to both Gavilar’s mystery sphere and to the imprisoned Unmade (i.e. Navani) does not even consider that the sphere might hold an Invested entity, undermining the third observation from OB; she’s 100% looking for what makes it a different kind of Voidlight. 
  • Not too many thoughts on Fused and ancient singer culture. One thing that stands out: Soulcast stones for the Nine in Kholinar. Were they Fused Soulcasting? Or are they actually using Soulcaster fabrials? Seems like a contradiction there, using human fabrials to set up something distinctly singer. 
  • At the end of Chapter Fourteen, Timbre and Venli briefly mention capturing a human Radiant to train Venli. I wonder if Kaladin gets himself captured again, if we get a nice Faith of the Fallen storyline of him among the singers after the planned raid on Urithiru. Which would be why the release party t-shirt has Kaladin and Venli on it together. 
  • Cognitive Shadows. Vasher says that he had his memories taken for a reason. I wonder what other Cognitive Shadows have had some or all of their memories removed for their self-preservation… maybe even put those memories into a coin, eh? Also, we’ll be getting one more Vasher chapter https://wob.coppermind.net/events/440/#e14274. 

The actual plots of these chapters have been, by and large, unsatisfying for me. It feels like the war has actually gotten less intense; now the Windrunners and the Fused play games in the sky while Edgedancer kids are ice skating around a Singer stronghold. And the Kaladin/Vasher fight was a prime example of an overwritten no-stakes combat; it was tiring to read for the same reason that the mistborn-vs-mistborn fights in Mistborn 2 are tiring for me to reread now that I know they all end. The actual blow-by-blow details of a fight are only as interesting as the reason the fight is happening. And Kaladin’s viewpoints are really laying it on thick through telling, rather than showing. (Which everyone else’s are to a lesser degree, but Kaladin is by far the worst offender.) Which, again, isn’t served by us knowing how it ends; the Syl interlude (that is presumably at the end of Part 1) tells us that Kaladin has gone back to being a surgeon. We know where all this moping and griping is going to end up; Kaladin’s not going to kill himself, he’s going to find a new noncombat job. 

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JASNAH IS AWSOME!

Edited by Karger
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Quote

 

Wit coughed into his hand.

“I believe Taravangian is working for the enemy,” Dalinar said, with a sigh. “One year ago, someone let enemy troops in to attack Urithiru, and—despite excuses and deflections that have convinced the others—I am certain Taravangian’s Radiant was the one who did it.”

“Dangerous,” the Mink said, “fighting in a war where your strongest ally is also your greatest fear. And Radiants, serving the other side? How could this be?”

“They wouldn’t be the only ones, unfortunately,” Jasnah said. “We’ve lost one entire order, the Skybreakers, to the enemy—and they have been harrying Azir, requiring us to keep dedicating forces in that region. The Dustbringers continue to flirt with rebellion, often ignoring Dalinar’s orders.”

 

Wit subtle as ever.

Ah Dalinar you allow the Mink to know that you know who is responsible. All of this makes me wonder about the information that Taravangian gave the fused.

Ah so they have some dustbringers!!!

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Investigating the Shin is something I am all for. I know we will learn about them in detail in Szeth’s book, but more information about them will be interesting.

Edited by Innovation
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“Wit?” Dalinar asked. “Is this one of your jokes?”

“Odium is a punch line, Dalinar, but not to any joke you’ve been told.”

 

Beautiful!!!!!

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1) 

The simplest Fused weapon against us isn’t truly a fabrial, but instead a metal that is extremely light and can withstand the blows of a Shardblade. This metal resists being Soulcast as well; it interferes with a great number of Radiant powers.

Fortunately, the Fused seem unable to create it in great quantities—for they equip only themselves, and not their average soldiers, with these wonders.

Aluminium!

Also, sounds like Brandon won

Quote

Yata

Hi, the community has a [question], we have two WoBs: Shardblades can cut aluminum and Shardblades can't cut it. Which one is true?

Brandon Sanderson (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Hm. Yes, I wondered last night if I'd ever answered this before. Truth is, the answer is contentious at Team Sanderson.

I've been pushing for one answer, but Peter (whom I trust) is pushing back. We will see what ends up in the books as canon.

Problem with magic like I do is sometimes you have to wait for the scientific consensus... :) Err on "no" for now.

Peter Ahlstrom (Part 1/Part 2/Part 3)

Oh, I think aluminum would stop Shardblades from magical cutting. But if it's too thin like foil, a sword...

...would cut it anyway. What I'm arguing is that something else that Shardblades don't cut doesn't need...

...to necessarily be made of aluminum, for various reasons.

Yata

For example Invested objects (metalmind,spike,etc) or polestones (from some SA's Quote) ?

Peter Ahlstrom

RAFO

Footnote: The two conflicting WoBs can be found here and here. Also the "something else" that Peter was referring to is likely the Shardblade guards, which have since been confirmed to not be aluminum.
General Twitter 2017 (Feb. 3, 2017)

2) hmm, just a note, inhaling, exhaling, swallowing to access Investiture. I suppose it's the easiest Physical parallel to show Spiritual consumption

3) Mink's hyper paranoid reaction reminded me of Vin a bit

4) Hmm so much of what Kaladin and Shallan and Dalinar have discovered of their abilities have been instinctual. With actual study... here's hoping for some min-maxing!

5) Finally Jasnah makes an appear-gah! Wit! And they talk...

Edit: Navani, please don't give the shippers fuel

6) Ishar's forces are behind enemy lines, who are sandwiched between him & the coalition over in Emul. I think this might be where the Skybreakers who joined Odium under Nale's guidance strike. Nale still listens to Ishar.

Edit: called it! 

Also battle lines, currently the Fused and co control Alethkar, Iri has joined them, the current force in Emul is presumably the same that ravaged it to get through the south central Rosharan states to Thaylenah. There's also Kharbranth technically, sort of

+)Why are the Honorspren withholding their support? What did Restares say to them?

7) welp, Mink for general!

8) more Dustbringers (as promised by Brandon), sounds like they might all be troublemakers, maybe all on the Diagram's side

9) Go Jasnah! Abolish slavery!

Also, yeah, Dalinar's really monarchist. Let other Bondsmiths crop up, let them be good leaders, and let them not be Kholins!

10) Finally, the Heralds! Also enter Navani's theological crisis! Ah, Wit being gentle, good, good.

Hmm, they still prefer to think of Braize/Damnation and Ashyn/Tranquiline Halls as separate planes of existence rather than planets, or did they simply not connect the dots?

Finally, full confirmation that Ishar forged the Oathpact. Oh, deep Realmatics, how much did they know back in Ashyn? A lot, one would assume, given they went nuclear, so to speak. How much of that knowledge still exists on Ashyn? Wonder if the Silence Divine might connect with the Stormlight Archive a bit more deeply, it's set in the same time as the back 5.

11) So Dalinar with current Stormfather who merged with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow vs Ishar with his Honorblade, will we get it, folks?! Am I smelling a set-up? 

12) Okay, what are the Shin doing? Sounds like religion gone out of control, which Brandon does experiment with a lot. Only Jezrien, Nale & Taln's Honorblades are not in their control, and speaking of, we still don't know who has the last one... 

Edited by Honorless
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Just now, Karger said:

This is obviously the most important take away from the chapter.  It will probably become one of the most hotly debated topics until we get a strait answer but.  Are Jasnah and Hoid a thing?

Well who saw that coming? Brandon!!!!

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Just now, Karger said:

This is obviously the most important take away from the chapter.  It will probably become one of the most hotly debated topics until we get a strait answer but.  Are Jasnah and Hoid a thing?

Let’s see what Shallan thinks about it. She knows Jasnah somewhat well, and can probably inform us through her viewpoints. 

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Regarding Lyn's and Alice's speculations from the Tor Discussion, my thoughts copied over from Tor thread:

 

Regarding Jasnah and Hoid. I think we’re seeing this from Navani’s point of view, plus the rumors, and everyone is making the incorrect assumption. I feel like maybe Hoid has been telling Jasnah something. About the Cosmere, or Realmatics, or something.  And she probably knows that he’s more than he lets on. I have no idea what information Hoid’s been sharing with Jasnah, but that’s probably what causes others to assume else is going on.

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Just now, Karger said:

This is obviously the most important take away from the chapter.  It will probably become one of the most hotly debated topics until we get a strait answer but.  Are Jasnah and Hoid a thing?

I feel totally unprepared for this if it's an actual ship.  I mean, which name of Hoid do we use? Wasnah? Joid? Dustnah? This is too much to process

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Just now, TMC29ZX said:

I feel totally unprepared for this if it's an actual ship.  I mean, which name of Hoid do we use? Wasnah? Joid? Dustnah? This is too much to process

Jidious

2 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Well who saw that coming? Brandon!!!!

Hoid had better stay away from her.  He is not the guy for our queen.

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3 minutes ago, yulerule said:

Regarding Lyn's and Alice's speculations from the Tor Discussion, my thoughts copied over from Tor thread:

 

Regarding Jasnah and Hoid. I think we’re seeing this from Navani’s point of view, plus the rumors, and everyone is making the incorrect assumption. I feel like maybe Hoid has been telling Jasnah something. About the Cosmere, or Realmatics, or something.  And she probably knows that he’s more than he lets on. I have no idea what information Hoid’s been sharing with Jasnah, but that’s probably what causes others to assume else is going on.

This. We shouldn’t make assumptions without concrete evidence. 

Edited by Innovation
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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Hoid had better stay away from her.  He is not the guy for our queen.

It is more than a little creepy. Those two must be up to something!!

Also the Shin tried to kill Ash!!! Not nice!!

Edited by Nathrangking
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5 minutes ago, Nathrangking said:

Also the Shin tried to kill Ash!!! Not nice!!

Worshiping her might have been nastier.

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I love Ash’s nonchalance/irritability when discussing things that, while commonplace to her, are completely dumbfounding to others XD

Just any Ash scene really

scenes like this are what ive been waiting for since ive first read SA

Edited by Eternal Khol
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