RoW Chapter 16 Discussion

[Lemiltock]

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

For an inexplicable reason I’m of the opinion that the gemstone holds The Sibling, or somehow holds several fractured fragments of Honor. If Gavilar got it from Braize, there’d be absolutely no reason for a Braize-ally to be trapped in that thing. 

It is only the contents that needs to come from Braize, I.E. he sent an empty perfect gemstone there and captured something with it, not that he got the gemstone from Braize with something already captured. Although the second option could be possible (place tinfoil hat), the fussed do seem to have some in fighting, with only one herald to torture whos to say they dont use gemstones to capture rivals. (This is not likely or even plausible as theres no evidence and is just a throw away tin foil hat theory)

Edited October 21, 2020 by Lemiltock
clarity on tin foil hat

[Karger]

STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS!

I cannot believe we all missed this(at least no one I have seen proposed this).

Quote

“Not that war, Blackthorn.” The Mink gave him a look laden with implication. Then he turned toward Navani. “The highprince mentioned maps for me to inspect? He said they’d be waiting, but I don’t see any in here, nor a table of proper size to roll them out upon. Should we fetch them? I’m very curious to see your troop layouts against the Voidbringers.”

I do not think the Mink is evil.  I do not think he is unethical.  However I do think he would not be the first patriot to cut a deal betraying two nations he does not like.  Taravangian has largely been made.  Who would suspect the Mink?  Playing larger empires against each other must be a science in Herdaz by now.  No way that nation has survived without doing so several times.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Karger

[+Weux082690]

My theory on Gavilar's sphere (which I haven't seen here, but I only skimmed), is that it contains Voidlight from Braize. The "strange rhythms" Rlain feels are the rhythms of Braize, which are different from the rhythms of Roshar, and are possibly more attuned to Odium because of his residence there.

The warping around it could be because of being a perfect gem it has more Voidlight than a normal sphere, or because on Braize the Voidlight is more "pure" because of closeness to Odium.

The lack of Odium's presence on Roshar could also explain why spheres don't get charged with Voidlight in the Everstorm. My guess is that some kind of Fused can charge spheres like Dalinar, or it requires some Connection to Odium which most Rosharians lack.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Weux082690 said:

My theory on Gavilar's sphere (which I haven't seen here, but I only skimmed), is that it contains Voidlight from Braize. The "strange rhythms" Rlain feels are the rhythms of Braize, which are different from the rhythms of Roshar, and are possibly more attuned to Odium because of his residence there.

Then why the extra security sphere?  It is super valuable and rare but its use here only makes sense if you find what you have either valuable or dangerous.

[Michael Portz]

14 hours ago, The Traveller said:

@Schneeente The bottom of the ocean is a vast plain in the Cognitive realm. Is it retrievable?? I think so.

Water on the cognitive plane is firm.

”Under water” in physical imho means, you have to dig to get at it in cognitive, and depending on where you sunk it, to dig massively.

Nash might have been able to access Jasnah’s stuff, because it still was “in the ship”, so there might have been a “bubble of beads” around it.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

Water on the cognitive plane is firm.

”Under water” in physical imho means, you have to dig to get at it in cognitive, and depending on where you sunk it, to dig massively.

Nash might have been able to access Jasnah’s stuff, because it still was “in the ship”, so there might have been a “bubble of beads” around it.

Cognitive realm is really flat though I don't know if depth correlates or inverts 1 to 1 with the physical realm. You would think since Navani knows a bunch of people who have bonded spren that she checked with the Spren to see if it would be a good idea before she did it. Hopefully she did that and the King's Drop containing the Thrill is just a tiny bead that's really hard to find. 

I'm kind of done with the Thrill, there are 8 other Unmade to play with and learn more about. I hope it's gone for good. 

 

Quote

 

Dirigible's sister

Is the Cognitive Realm flat or spherical?

Brandon Sanderson

The Cognitive Realm is this weird thing, where it's flat, but it's distorted.

Dirigible's sister

Yeah, 'cause I was going to say, if you make a globe flat...

Brandon Sanderson

You can walk from one planet to the next. So it's got really weird...the spatial reasoning doesn't work the same way.

Calamity Denver signing (Feb. 19, 2016)

 

 

 

Quote

 

XS-Terrain

What are the geometric properties of Shadesmar? Is it curved, or is it a Euclidean Plane?

Brandon Sanderson

It's like a single, infinite plane.

XS-Terrain

So it extends forever.

Brandon Sanderson

Well... Kind of. Kind of yes. The problem is, what people don’t think about doesn’t really appear there, in Shadesmar, so the edges are weird.

Oathbringer San Francisco signing (Nov. 15, 2017)

 

 

[I Am A Fish]

36 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Cognitive realm is really flat though I don't know if depth correlates or inverts 1 to 1 with the physical realm. You would think since Navani knows a bunch of people who have bonded spren that she checked with the Spren to see if it would be a good idea before she did it. Hopefully she did that and the King's Drop containing the Thrill is just a tiny bead that's really hard to find. 

I'm kind of done with the Thrill, there are 8 other Unmade to play with and learn more about. I hope it's gone for good.

I hope it's gone from Stormlight for good.

I still really want to see Nazh bringing it to Khriss.

Edited October 21, 2020 by I Am A Fish
Grammare

[FollowYourMuse]

 

19 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Based on Zahel's comment in chapter 15 that Roshar is too young to have fossils... is it too young to have geologically formed gemstones?  We know they have gemhearts, but we just learned that gemhearts apparently are more imperfect than other gemstones.  Where do these other gemstones come from?  Soulcasting?  Smuggling through Shadesmar?  I can't actually think of any other ways from what we know of Roshar.

I took Zahel's comment to mean that Roshar is old, older than the shattering, and his world, but not older than where the fossil came from, though it might be old enough for fossils.
Natural forming gemstones would require geological activity not just time, there are mountains and craters but they were formed by "gods"  or battles and surges, so unless there was intent to create gemstones in the rock there may not be any. Same with fossils they would be under layers of crem, and would need to be in areas that have not been soulcast / transformed by intent. 

Quote

“A long time. A mind-numbingly long time. The place I come from, it didn’t have any of these. It’s too new. Your world might have some hidden deep, but I doubt it. That stone you hold is old. Older than Wit, or your Heralds, or the gods themselves.”

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by FollowYourMuse

[+Bliev]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS!

I cannot believe we all missed this(at least no one I have seen proposed this).

I do not think the Mink is evil.  I do not think he is unethical.  However I do think he would not be the first patriot to cut a deal betraying two nations he does not like.  Taravangian has largely been made.  Who would suspect the Mink?  Playing larger empires against each other must be a science in Herdaz by now.  No way that nation has survived without doing so several times.

I do not think he trusts Dalinar. Does he care about the broader fight with Odium? Is he more Taravangian-esque in his focus on "his" people, other Rosharans be damned?

I think that he's a risk, and he might have a plan in mind,  but I think he'll be won over, and he's a reminder to the Radiant forces that there are real people, doing real things, suffering real damage that they have to account for. And maybe for Dalinar that his growth is not yet finished. 

On Reddit, Brandon said this:

Quote

I’m curious, based on Adolin’s behavior towards his father getting more and more rebellious and antagonistic.

Did Dalinar tell his family about Evi and what he was confessing g before the book was published or did they find out like the general public?

mistborn

He kind of told them. He had the book read to Adolin and Renarin, in draft form, before he started releasing those drafts.

Dalinar may have stood up to Odium, and may have decided to lay  himself bare as defiance, but he did not have the courage to look his sons in the eye and tell them what he did to their mother. So there is still growth there. And I doubt he is spending much time feeling the weight of the burden that folks like the Mink--and even Lirin!--still bear every day. Maybe generals can't afford to think like that in the midst of war. But those stories are still critical. And they  can  create rifts and cracks that need addressing. 

[agrabes]

10 hours ago, Karger said:

STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS STORMS!

I cannot believe we all missed this(at least no one I have seen proposed this).

I do not think the Mink is evil.  I do not think he is unethical.  However I do think he would not be the first patriot to cut a deal betraying two nations he does not like.  Taravangian has largely been made.  Who would suspect the Mink?  Playing larger empires against each other must be a science in Herdaz by now.  No way that nation has survived without doing so several times.

I don't think the idea of the Mink betraying the Radiants makes sense with his character.  He's known as the general who fought on beyond all hope, continuing a guerilla war at huge costs to himself and his people.  That kind of person is not going to give up and give in to the enemy, unless he's had his mind influence by Odium or the Unmade.

It seems to me like the Mink has a personal dislike of Dalinar who led the wars that killed his family.  But he also understands that the Radiants are really fighting a guerilla war in a lot of ways.  The Mink will serve as a good counterpoint to Dalinar and even possibly a lesson to Kaladin.  He will show them what an honorable leader can do if he wasn't born to inherit the most powerful army in the world.  Dalinar doesn't know because he's been successful at everything he's ever done.  Kaladin struggles because he has always been the underdog and it's getting to the point where he feels like giving up hope.

20 minutes ago, Bliev said:

I do not think he trusts Dalinar. Does he care about the broader fight with Odium? Is he more Taravangian-esque in his focus on "his" people, other Rosharans be damned?

I think that he's a risk, and he might have a plan in mind,  but I think he'll be won over, and he's a reminder to the Radiant forces that there are real people, doing real things, suffering real damage that they have to account for. And maybe for Dalinar that his growth is not yet finished. 

I think you're right - Dalinar does still have things to learn.  If you think about it Dalinar has never once in his life been the underdog (I guess unless you count his failed romance of Navani when he was young).  He's never had to hold out in desperation, knowing he has no allies and no powerful help coming his way.  I think the Mink is going to teach him that, in the wake of the Fused invasion of Urithiru - what to do and how to keep going when it seems completely hopeless and no one is coming to your rescue.

[Necessary Eagle]

13 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

On the other hand, someone needs to write this story: The Silmaril somehow migrates to the Cosmere and Macalaure follows to a world where oaths are binding... and his has reawakened...

 

Seriously, how much trouble would a First Age elf cause on Roshar? Especially one with a remarkable talent for music - and rhythm. All the music/rhythm stuff on Roshar reminds me of Arda.

Maglor: "Dad must have been here at some point. Ashyn is on fire."

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Maglor: "Dad must have been here at some point. Ashyn is on fire."

And if the ‘Feanor’s spirit is in the gems’ theory is correct, we could have a Feanor CS! 
 

But I think Maglor would be very dangerous on Roshar. [Sings with perfect resonance at full power. Large portion of Roshar shatters.]

[nbozb]

Quote

“They’re dead, in the war,” the Mink said softly.

“I’m sorry,” Dalinar said. “The Everstorm and Odium have cost us all much.”

“Not that war, Blackthorn.” The Mink gave him a look laden with implication.

I really like that even though Dalinar has taken responsibility for his actions, the lives he tore apart are still addressed, through people like Lirin and the Mink. It's pretty easy to ignore everything that he's done, especially since almost all the characters that we care about have been either not really affected, or positively affected by him. (Of course, another major factor was the fact that Dalinar's bloody history was introduced in book three).

Edited October 21, 2020 by nbozb
Grammar

[Karger]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

I don't think the idea of the Mink betraying the Radiants makes sense with his character.  He's known as the general who fought on beyond all hope, continuing a guerilla war at huge costs to himself and his people.  That kind of person is not going to give up and give in to the enemy, unless he's had his mind influence by Odium or the Unmade.

Given his attitude toward violence and war in general I do not think he would continue to fight unless he thought it served a purpose.  I do wonder what that purpose was.

[+Bzhydack]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Given his attitude toward violence and war in general I do not think he would continue to fight unless he thought it served a purpose.  I do wonder what that purpose was.

Mink will fight. He will fight against Fused and Odium, he will fighti against Alethi, Veden, and everyone else, unless enemy - ANY enemy - will run away from Herdaz as far as possible. Even if he is now himself far away, as refugee, he will join fight against enemy who is occupying his Motherland.

[+Oltux72]

17 hours ago, Gilphon said:

On the contrary, it jives really well- Gavilar nabbed a Fused off of Briaze shortly before the Desolation started, so Leshwi didn't have a chance to notice that person was missing. But Raboniel realized it happened, and that's why she's so confident that this will be the final Desolation. Although Raboniel doesn't realize that they only human who knows how that was accomplished died without telling anyone about it. 

How? Gavilar surely did not design and assemble his machinery himself by hand. He must have had technicians.

[joesleepsalot]

18 hours ago, Karger said:

You would let a sapient piece of a god of evil wander around your kingdom?  Leaving aside Gavilar's intelligence(or lack there of) he was a man who sought control and domination.  He would not permit any loose cannons unless he had no choice or could gain something from it.

?Combative much? It’s a fictional story man not real life 
 

“god of evil” —they don’t see themselves as evil, they see themselves as full of passion. And if they’re all on the same side anyways serving the same god on the same planet, I see no reason why an unmade would be kept captive in a gemstone on that planet. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

?Combative much? It’s a fictional story man not real life 

I am sorry if I came on to strong.  I was just trying to get a point across.

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

“god of evil” —they don’t see themselves as evil, they see themselves as full of passion.

Regardless of their ethical viewpoint I do not see anyone let along someone as conniving as Gavilar let an unmade loose without good reason. 

1 hour ago, joesleepsalot said:

And if they’re all on the same side anyways serving the same god on the same planet, I see no reason why an unmade would be kept captive in a gemstone on that planet. 

We don't know/have reason to believe that Gavilar was working for Odium.

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We don't know/have reason to believe that Gavilar was working for Odium.

Don’t we have a WOB that states that gavilar was on the same bondsmith path as Dalinar? That would definitely set aside the idea that he was working for Odium, though I’ve considered the idea of a potential unmade influence.

 

[Lemiltock]

9 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Don’t we have a WOB that states that gavilar was on the same bondsmith path as Dalinar? That would definitely set aside the idea that he was working for Odium, though I’ve considered the idea of a potential unmade influence.

 

We do heres a couple the first i think was before OB. The second indicates that Gavilar has not bonded but its based on the wording.

Quote

Ted Herman (paraphrased)

Has Dalinar been on the Bondsmith path for a long time? How about Gavilar?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes to both.

Brandon said that Gavilar had been on the Bondsmith path for longer than Dalinar has been.

Arcanum Unbounded Hoboken signing (Dec. 3, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

The visions Dalinar gets in WoK always struck me as odd - you don't just look at the past, you are able to act within this experience. Now we know that Gavilar was also on the way to being a Bondsmith - was he acting in a different way? Were the visions only basically the same but different in the end depending on the personal reactions? Is this something like a test?

Brandon Sanderson

He did see the same visions. They were the same thing. But... I will say that his reaction to them were very different from Dalinar's reactions to them. Anyway it was difficult for the Stormfather without a bond to determine/to tell the difference between very easily. When Spren are bonded, they gain a lot more ability to understand the world around then, so you'll find out soon more stuff about this in the third book.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)

 

[Rainier]

8 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Don’t we have a WOB that states that gavilar was on the same bondsmith path as Dalinar? That would definitely set aside the idea that he was working for Odium, though I’ve considered the idea of a potential unmade influence.

Yes, we do, but we also had Odium cultivating Dalinar to be his champion, before Honor and Cultivation stole him away. I think it's perfectly reasonable that both Honor (as a Bondsmith) and Odium (method to be determined) were influencing Gavilar, in opposition to one another.

The best connection we have between Gavilar and Odium comes from Yelig-nar. That is, both his daughter-in-law and his co-conspirator at one point decided to use/combine/merge/whatever with one of the Unmade.

Spoiler

I'm still kinda pissed at what happened to Amaram, because he got turned from a morally grey antagonist to a cartoon mustache-twirling villain overnight. We better have a damn good reveal of the leader of the Sons of Honor in order to retroactively make sense of that transformation.

 

[+Bliev]

15 hours ago, Rainier said:

Yes, we do, but we also had Odium cultivating Dalinar to be his champion, before Honor and Cultivation stole him away. I think it's perfectly reasonable that both Honor (as a Bondsmith) and Odium (method to be determined) were influencing Gavilar, in opposition to one another.

The best connection we have between Gavilar and Odium comes from Yelig-nar. That is, both his daughter-in-law and his co-conspirator at one point decided to use/combine/merge/whatever with one of the Unmade.

 

Totally agreed that there are likely multiple influences at work. I just took issue with the idea that Gavilar was "working for" Odium at that time, as opposed to perhaps being influenced in some way via an unmade. I can agree on that. 

[Karger]

19 hours ago, Rainier said:

I'm still kinda pissed at what happened to Amaram, because he got turned from a morally grey antagonist to a cartoon mustache-twirling villain overnight. We better have a damn good reveal of the leader of the Sons of Honor in order to retroactively make sense of that transformation.

I do agree to some extent however I think it does illustrate why the henchmen is usually killed off/switches sides before the dark lord is taken down.

[Greywatch]

Amaram made sense to me. He was always a mustache-twirling villain who used a cloak of teary-eyed gray morality to justify his cartoonishly evil villainy. I don't think the Unmade was the reason for him giving up the act.

[+Oltux72]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Regardless of their ethical viewpoint I do not see anyone let along someone as conniving as Gavilar let an unmade loose without good reason. 

Yes, but for the right price he would do just that.

21 hours ago, Karger said:

We don't know/have reason to believe that Gavilar was working for Odium.

Gavilar is not working for anybody. He had allies and partners.

20 hours ago, Bliev said:

Don’t we have a WOB that states that gavilar was on the same bondsmith path as Dalinar? That would definitely set aside the idea that he was working for Odium, though I’ve considered the idea of a potential unmade influence.

Well, there seems to be a tendency to view a Bondsmith as a sort of saintly figure and to see anything that is not as pure as Albert Schweitzer, Henri Dunant of Florence Nightingale as an Unmade at work. A vassal or a slave are also bound. There is nothing in the mission statements of the Bondsmiths that would strictly require the bonds to be between equals or them to be based on liberty or honesty.