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RoW Chapter 16 Discussion


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29 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Exactly! This is huge news. Who made it? How? Where? When? Is this something Gavilar found himself, or is it something he was given? Is this a relic from ages lost to time, or is this a new piece of technology developed within the lifetimes of our main characters? Did it come from Braize?

If you can create a perfect gemstone that can hold investiture, could you create one without the same Connection to one world? Could this be the perfect vessel for transporting Investiture off of Roshar, and making it available for export?

So many new questions, which means we're getting answers for old questions, soon.

And yet, it's worth revisiting the "old questions" as well.

Aside from what they hold and where these strange spheres came from, who knows about them and where are all of them?

In the RoW Prologue, when Navani looked in and saw Gavilar meeting with the two "ambassadors" in her study:

Quote

On the table between Gavilar and the men lay a group of spheres. Navani’s breath caught as she saw them. They were arrayed in a variety of colors and brightness, but several seemed strangely off. They glowed with an inverse of light, as if they were little pits of violet darkness, sucking in the color around them.

So not all of Gavilar's spheres were filled with Voidlight or possibly, an Unmade.

And then, when Gavilar asks the Heralds to excuse him,

Quote

 

The nervous Vorin man ran his hand through his wispy hair. "I want to know more of the project, Gavilar. Plus, you need to know that another of us is here tonight. I spotted her handiwork earlier."

"I have a meeting shortly with Meridas and the others," Gavilar said. "They should have more information for me. We can speak again after that."

"No," the Makabaki man said, his voice sharp. "I doubt we shall."

"There’s more here, Nale!" the Vorin man said, though he followed as his friend left. "This is important! I want out. This is the only way..."

 

So Gavilar had not yet explained everything to them, but he anticipated that at his meeting with "Meridas and the others" (Amaram and Restares? certainly the Sons of Honor), they "should have more information for me". If they had information he did not about the spheres, does that not imply someone in the SoH procured them for him in the first place?

Later, when Navani searches his body, she finds the bag he closed firmly in her face with those spheres in it, but it's empty. Yet he only gave one - THAT one - over to Szeth. Who has all the others? Did Gavilar do that intentionally, knowing someone would be looking for "the spheres" and realize something was amiss if the bag was empty, but might not have realized ONE was missing (i.e., if they didn't have a full inventory or means of identification, and wouldn't easily know which one was the missing one)?

And finally, later when Navani stands up to him, saying his legacy was in her hands based on what she would choose to write about him:

Quote

 

He didn’t respond with shouts or rage, but the cold void in his eyes could have consumed continents and left only blackness. He raised his hand to her chin and gently cupped it, a mockery of a once-passionate gesture.

It was more painful than a slap.

 

Sounds similar to what gripped Lin Davar over time, doesn't it? And his demands that Jasnah marry Amaram essentially because he wants her to obey. Why won't they just obey?

Shallan's father only started having this "new, cold anger" as of "one and a half years ago" before the events in Words of Radiance (per Ch. 61): "This new anger of his, the cold anger, terrified Shallan." We've had WoBs suggesting it was the influence of an Unmade, or at least of Odium. So basically, after it was done with Gavilar?

Edited by robardin
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6 hours ago, Karger said:

Why?  She could just as easily be eight or thirteen.

6 hours ago, Infinitysliver said:

why would cultivation be 11?

So far, most of the gods living on a planet form a 16 letter pattern.
Preservation (12) and Ruin (4).
Devotion (8) and Dominion (8).

Honor has 5 letters, and for some reason Brandon chose Odium (5) instead of Hatred (6). I don't think this is a coincidence.
This means that Cultivation forms a standard of 16 with both Honor and Odium.

Of course I can be totally wrong.

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Odium is associated with the number 9 (9 shadows, 9 unmade).  Preservation may be 16 (the sign he gave re: Seers)

Honor is clearly 10.  10 of everything, heralds, orders, ten names of the almighty.  

I had never seen the connection to letter sin the name, but I think it may be a red herring.

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1 hour ago, Schneeente said:

But the ocean is gigantic. Even if somehow Odium knows that the gem was dropped somewhere into the ocean (I hope Dalinar gave it to Kaladin and even he wouldn't be able to find the place he dropped it down) that at least makes it incredibly tedious to re-find. 

What would the alternative be? Always in Dalinar's jacket pocket? Somewhere hidden in the tower? Somewhere hidden on the landmass of the continent? There is no foolproof spot, wherever you drop it, someone can retrieve it. And they didn't feel to take the chance to try to destroy it, a decision I can understand. 

Hide in cave deep under Urithiru encasted in large block of Aluminum. I mean, very large. Like 10x10x10 meters.

Or incast in something and Lash into space. This will probably take like 1300 Lashings, but should be possible.

37 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Exactly! This is huge news. Who made it? How? Where? When? Is this something Gavilar found himself, or is it something he was given? Is this a relic from ages lost to time, or is this a new piece of technology developed within the lifetimes of our main characters? Did it come from Braize?

Someone is making synthethic gemstones? Scadrial probably isnt able to do this now, not diamonds (corundum they should be able to make). Taldain maybe?

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1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Hide in cave deep under Urithiru encasted in large block of Aluminum. I mean, very large. Like 10x10x10 meters.

How is hiding it under Urithiru better than dropping it randomly somewhere into the ocean? The aluminum-casing could also be used when you drop it into the ocean, but since they don't know about its relevance, you cannot use it in your argument how to hide it better.  

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

Or incast in something and Lash into space. This will probably take like 1300 Lashings, but should be possible

Cast into space, I highly doubt Kaladin can cast it outside of Roshar's gravitational pull, that means it would in short order crash down somewhere. Fair enough, maybe the unmade doesn't survive re-entry. But if heat and fire could kill it, they could have dropped it into a volcano.  

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28 minutes ago, robardin said:

Shallan's father only started having this "new, cold anger" as of "one and a half years ago" before the events in Words of Radiance (per Ch. 61): "This new anger of his, the cold anger, terrified Shallan." We've had WoBs suggesting it was the influence of an Unmade, or at least of Odium. So basically, after it was done with Gavilar?

Yes, I like this idea, gripped by an unmade. 

Also important that the Heralds knew that Gavilar was to be killed that night--fortune? or were they in on Taravangian's plot? Insider knowledge of the early beginnings of the Diagram, maybe? 

I have vacillated back and forth about whether I think Gavilar is still kicking it. The role of an unmade here makes me think maybe not. I wondered before why the SOH would want to bring the void bringers back--to bring glory back to the Vorin church and to bring the heralds back. Gavilar obviously knew the Heralds were already back, and was still working with the SOH to bring back the void bringers. Why? What did he stand to gain? He told Navani that he would be immortal--who told him that? And yet, he still wanted Dalinar to reform the KR. Why?

So many questions. 

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8 hours ago, Karger said:

Don't you guys know any better!  YOU DON"T THROW DEMONS IN THE OCEAN!

But throwing Radiant Gems in works quite well. (Particularly if an infamous kinslayer is guarding the shore.)

 

It’s not like they could attach it to the helm of a white ship and turn it into the Morning Star with a tragic hero at the helm... Someone should suggest it to Cultivation.

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47 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

So far, most of the gods living on a planet form a 16 letter pattern.
Preservation (12) and Ruin (4).
Devotion (8) and Dominion (8).

Honor has 5 letters, and for some reason Brandon chose Odium (5) instead of Hatred (6). I don't think this is a coincidence.
This means that Cultivation forms a standard of 16 with both Honor and Odium.

Of course I can be totally wrong.

Endowment's is 9 letters and has a number of five.  Besides when Preservation and Ruin were developed Brando was still working out 16 shards(something he had not done when elantris was published).

26 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

How is hiding it under Urithiru better than dropping it randomly somewhere into the ocean? The aluminum-casing could also be used when you drop it into the ocean, but since they don't know about its relevance, you cannot use it in your argument how to hide it better.  

Because you know where it is.  The way Dalinar did it now he will not know if someone recovers the thrill and won't know to prepare to face it later.

27 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

But if heat and fire could kill it, they could have dropped it into a volcano. 

No volcanoes on roshar.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Because you know where it is.  The way Dalinar did it now he will not know if someone recovers the thrill and won't know to prepare to face it later.

Well, better to make it way harder to actually lose it and not knowing if it is taken than making it easier to take away but knowing when it has been taken. 

/edit: Especially if you don't think that you could re-capture it anyway. 

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

No volcanoes on roshar.

How do you know? 

Edited by Schneeente
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6 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

Well, better to make it way harder to actually lose it and not knowing if it is taken than making it easier to take away but knowing when it has been taken. 

I disagree.  The thrill is not an automatic win card.  With proper planing and training its effects can be mitigated and even used to advantage by a skilled general.  However all of this requires that team radiant actually work on this and that they have some idea when the effect is going to hit them.  Both would be easier if they had the thrill available for study.  A fabrail could be used to give calculated dosses of the thrill to training soldiers and study of the unmade itself could give insight into its fellows.  Dalinar seems to have thrown all of this out.

6 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

How do you know? 

WoBs.  Brandon has gone into some detail on this but here is one of the more relevant ones.  Spoiler for length.

Spoiler

Questioner

Does Roshar have plate tectonics?

Brandon Sanderson

Roshar does not have plate tectonics, good question.

Questioner

Well when I met you in Orem, I was asking about frequencies. And you said it was more the shape of the plate-- The frequency. We've got no plate tectonics, we've got people who like to sing.

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. Now the weird thing that we would have is with the crem, we have to do some weird geology gymnastics, because Roshar is moving...

Roshar, the continent of Roshar, it's moving, right? As it gets weathered and things like this. Making Roshar actually work requires some really interesting scientific gymnastics. But one of them is I just didn't think plate tectonics, or even volcanoes and things, is just not something that is going to work on Roshar the way that I built it. So I just stayed away from all of that.  It's a pangaea.

Questioners

Is the pangaea built up of crem?

Brandon Sanderson

 It's a pangaea built up of crem.

Rubix

Over a long time--

Brandon Sanderson

Well no, because it was created at first.

Bystander

And then crem was on top of it?

Brandon Sanderson

...The whole idea that this is a fractal-- The whole point of that is, somebody built this. Somebody built this using mathematics that you know. They said "Oh. Boom. Bing!" and grew themselves a continent.

Firefight release party (Jan. 5, 2015)

 

Edited by Karger
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46 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

But throwing Radiant Gems in works quite well. (Particularly if an infamous kinslayer is guarding the shore.)

Let's keep Roshar and Arda far apart, please. I don't want any infamous kinslayers demonstrating to the Stormfather that yes, there IS such a thing as a foolish oath.

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Another reason why I think the black sphere may hold BAM or at least a part of her, is that Rlain says that it has a different song/vibrates wrong against his soul. Well, if BAM had previously found a way to Connect with the Singers. What better way to symbolize that but through rhythm

On second thought, it could be a Fused since we know humans trapping a Fused is a main concern of that faction. But I find it difficult to believe that they would not have noticed one of their own disappearing 7ish years ago 

Edited by Potus
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2 hours ago, Karger said:

Endowment's is 9 letters and has a number of five.  Besides when Preservation and Ruin were developed Brando was still working out 16 shards(something he had not done when elantris was published).

Ok, good point. It does not need to have exactly a sacred number equal to the number of letters. None of them do, actually.

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1 hour ago, Potus said:

Another reason why I think the black sphere may hold BAM or at least a part of her, is that Rlain says that it has a different song/vibrates wrong against his soul. Well, if BAM had previously found a way to Connect with the Singers. What better way to symbolize that but through rhythm

On second thought, it could be a Fused since we know humans trapping a Fused is a main concern of that faction. But I find it difficult to believe that they would not have noticed one of their own disappearing 7ish years ago 

The Fused hadn't returned to Roshar yet, not until after the Everstorm, so this would have to be a Fused trapped in a gem from the previous Desolation where they occured - the last "real" Desolation, i.e., Ahrietiam.

That doesn't jive with Leshwi's horrified reaction to the idea that a Fused could be trapped in a gem, if it'd already happened before.

Edited by robardin
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10 minutes ago, robardin said:

The Fused hadn't returned to Roshar yet, not until after the Everstorm, so this would have to be a Fused trapped in a gem from the previous Desolation where they occured - the last "real" Desolation, i.e., Ahrietiam.

That doesn't jive with Leshwi's horrified reaction to the idea that a Fused could be trapped in a gem, if it'd already happened before.

Hmm...

Then we could have a Leshwi character arc.

I approve of this idea.

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20 minutes ago, robardin said:

The Fused hadn't returned to Roshar yet, not until after the Everstorm, so this would have to be a Fused trapped in a gem from the previous Desolation where they occured - the last "real" Desolation, i.e., Ahrietiam.

That doesn't jive with Leshwi's horrified reaction to the idea that a Fused could be trapped in a gem, if it'd already happened before.

Gavilar was also sending stuff back and forth to Braize so they may have captured one. This would also allow the current fussed to think they had just not awakened yet, or it may have been one of the catatonic fussed, I doubt Odium has a fussed check in service on Braize.

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2 hours ago, Necessary Eagle said:

Let's keep Roshar and Arda far apart, please. I don't want any infamous kinslayers demonstrating to the Stormfather that yes, there IS such a thing as a foolish oath.

Don’t worry. Brandon has repeatedly stated that Earth is not part of the Cosmere.


On the other hand, someone needs to write this story: The Silmaril somehow migrates to the Cosmere and Macalaure follows to a world where oaths are binding... and his has reawakened...
 

Seriously, how much trouble would a First Age elf cause on Roshar? Especially one with a remarkable talent for music - and rhythm. All the music/rhythm stuff on Roshar reminds me of Arda.

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For an inexplicable reason I’m of the opinion that the gemstone holds The Sibling, or somehow holds several fractured fragments of Honor. If Gavilar got it from Braize, there’d be absolutely no reason for a Braize-ally to be trapped in that thing. 
 

Also. Clearly the decision makers never saw Transformers with Megatron’s rescue from the Laurentian Abyss.... nor did they read The Fellowship of the Ring, specifically the Council of Elrond chapter (see pics). Let’s also not forget that an unmade in a gemstone at the bottom of the ocean would likely be a huge This post has been reported for attempting to skirt the rules beacon at the top of a mountain in Shadesmar. Complete rookie movie

82CE4CE8-5317-4DF9-ADAE-8858D880DB81.jpeg

BE6F6C94-21B4-478D-942C-1EE949D7E96F.jpeg

 

^^^ “attempting to skirt the rules”??? 


about to deactivate this account.

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7 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

^^^ “attempting to skirt the rules”??? 


about to deactivate this account.

You tripped the swear word filter, it's not a big deal. It usually happens if swear words are attempted with asterisks in place of letters. Like an a with a couple of asterisks.

It's an automated process, no hammer is coming down. I liked your LOTR parallel a lot by the way, fun stuff.

Edited by hoiditthroughthegrapevine
Wow, two typos in such a short post, thanks horrible cellphone keyboard
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1 hour ago, robardin said:

The Fused hadn't returned to Roshar yet, not until after the Everstorm, so this would have to be a Fused trapped in a gem from the previous Desolation where they occured - the last "real" Desolation, i.e., Ahrietiam.

That doesn't jive with Leshwi's horrified reaction to the idea that a Fused could be trapped in a gem, if it'd already happened before.

On the contrary, it jives really well- Gavilar nabbed a Fused off of Briaze shortly before the Desolation started, so Leshwi didn't have a chance to notice that person was missing. But Raboniel realized it happened, and that's why she's so confident that this will be the final Desolation. Although Raboniel doesn't realize that they only human who knows how that was accomplished died without telling anyone about it. 

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5 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

On the contrary, it jives really well- Gavilar nabbed a Fused off of Briaze shortly before the Desolation started, so Leshwi didn't have a chance to notice that person was missing. But Raboniel realized it happened, and that's why she's so confident that this will be the final Desolation. Although Raboniel doesn't realize that they only human who knows how that was accomplished died without telling anyone about it. 

Raboniel says:

Quote

They imprisoned some of the Unmade in these, Leshwi,” Raboniel said. “How close do you think they are to discovering they could do the same for us? Can you imagine it? Forever imprisoned in a gemstone, locked away, able to think but unable to ever break free?”

Leshwi hummed to Panic, a pained rhythm with unfinished measures and chopped-up beats.

“One way or another,” Raboniel said, “this is the final Return. The humans will soon discover how to imprison us. If not, well, the best of us who remain are but a few steps from madness. We must find a solution to this war.”

She doesn't think it's happened yet, but also thinks (knows) that it is not a matter of technique but execution. The humans simply haven't thought of trying to capture a Fused in a gem - they only ever captured an Unmade during the False Desolation (when the Fused were still on Braize), and now Nergaoul in their direct experience not that long ago (how long is the "gap time" since Thaylen Fields? Two years?)

That said, how would it be done? Lure a spren with something it knows, something it loves... What would that mean in terms of doing the same for a Fused? If it would take Shallan to capture Re-Shapnir, does that mean it has to be Kaladin to gem Leshwi? Navani to gem Raboniel? 

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32 minutes ago, joesleepsalot said:

For an inexplicable reason I’m of the opinion that the gemstone holds The Sibling, or somehow holds several fractured fragments of Honor. If Gavilar got it from Braize, there’d be absolutely no reason for a Braize-ally to be trapped in that thing. 

You would let a sapient piece of a god of evil wander around your kingdom?  Leaving aside Gavilar's intelligence(or lack there of) he was a man who sought control and domination.  He would not permit any loose cannons unless he had no choice or could gain something from it.

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