RoW Chapter 16 Discussion

[the_archduke]

If it isn't an Unmade in the voidlight gem, what else could it be?  I can think of only two possibilities considering Gavilar's comment about holding a god.  One of the Heralds (quick has anyone seen Kelek since the night of Gavilar's death?) or a Godspren (the Sibling is sleeping because he is bound in a gemstone)

[Awakened Cremling]

I believe the Fused could be seen as "gods" or at the least Gavilar would have mistakenly thought of them as such. Since it is Gavilar that used that term here I think it is his perception that matters. In other words I think a Fused is another legitimate 3rd option.

[Shakakakakaka]

3 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

ok referring to this,how much investiture is required to cause such a warping though. Cause Nightblood is continously referred to as the most heavily invested object in the cosmere and thre have been records of time dilation near it. The only things more invested are Shards,although i guess "object" could refer to non living things?

I'm guessing it has to do with the types of Invested entities Vasher has categorized. The cognitive dilation might be a result of a powerful enough Type One entity

[Lightspine]

16 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

My instinct is that your are correct in that we are seeing the effect of lots of investiture rather than an aspect of any particular Unmade but some physical aspects being affected but not all does seem strange. I think we are on the right track but don't have enough information yet.

Yeah there's definitely a lot that we don't know.

10 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Bugsy6912

Does Investiture warp spacetime like objects with mass/energy do in our world?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes--but the warping is not on the Physical Realm.

General Signed Books 2017 (Oct. 22, 2017)

 

ok,referring to this,how much investiture is required to cause such a warping though. Cause Nightblood is continously referred to as the most heavily invested object in the cosmere and thre have been records of time dilation near it. The only things more invested are Shards,although i guess "object" could refer to non living things?

That's a good point. I looked up the phrasing of those WoBs about Nightblood, and this one seems to be the closest thing to Sanderson calling it the most invested object:

Quote

Questioner

Is Nightblood a minor Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Nightblood is one of the most heavily Invested things in the cosmere that is not a Shard.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

He says "things" here and is also including the Shards in this scale so the Unmade are probably being considered when he said this. So it's very possible that Nightblood is more invested than them. On the other hand, he says "one of" so it's not conclusive.

However, there could be another reason that Nighblood doesn't distort spacetime; the aluminum. Aluminum blocks the effects of investure; what if it contains the spacetime distortion as well? It's certainly a possibility. Maybe Nightblood creates time dilation when it is unsheathed.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Lightspine

[+robardin]

6 minutes ago, Rainier said:

What I'm interested in is the provenance of this gem. It couldn't have been harvested from a gemheart, you say? Does that mean artificial creation of gemstones? Mraize might be very interested in that.

Artificial creation of a perfect gemstone.

Ooh baby.

[Shakakakakaka]

5 minutes ago, Awakened Cremling said:

I believe the Fused could be seen as "gods" or at the least Gavilar would have mistakenly thought of them as such. Since it is Gavilar that used that term here I think it is his perception that matters. In other words I think a Fused is another legitimate 3rd option.

This seems the best theory. Gavilar knew things. Was having visions. Knew of the Everstorm. And was specifically speaking to Eshonai about the return of the Parshendi gods, which he specifically calls out his own understanding of what their gods are and not what the Alethi think them to be

[the_archduke]

Based on Zahel's comment in chapter 15 that Roshar is too young to have fossils... is it too young to have geologically formed gemstones?  We know they have gemhearts, but we just learned that gemhearts apparently are more imperfect than other gemstones.  Where do these other gemstones come from?  Soulcasting?  Smuggling through Shadesmar?  I can't actually think of any other ways from what we know of Roshar.

Edited October 20, 2020 by the_archduke
typo

[I Am A Fish]

Just now, the_archduke said:

Based on Zahel's comment in chapter 15 that Roshar is too young to have fossils... is it too young to have geologically formed gemstones?  We know they have gemhearts, but we just learned that gemhearts apparently are more imperfect than other gemstones.  Where do these other gemstones come from?  Soulcasting?  Smuggling through Shadesmar?  I can't actually think of any other ways form what we know of Roshar.

Soulcasting a gemstone seems a bit counterproductive... 

[Georion]

Just now, the_archduke said:

Based on Zahel's comment in chapter 15 that Roshar is too young to have fossils... is it too young to have geologically formed gemstones?  We know they have gemhearts, but we just learned that gemhearts apparently are more imperfect than other gemstones.  Where do these other gemstones come from?  Soulcasting?  Smuggling through Shadesmar?  I can't actually think of any other ways form what we know of Roshar.

Fossils need life on said planet, geologically formed precious stones dont. So maybe life on Roshar is not that old, but geological gemstones could exist maybe?

[+Bliev]

16 minutes ago, Rainier said:

If it's not one of the Unmade, it's almost certainly one of the Fused. We've even had them worry over exactly this fear: being trapped forever in a gem.

What I'm interested in is the provenance of this gem. It couldn't have been harvested from a gemheart, you say? Does that mean artificial creation of gemstones? Mraize might be very interested in that.

Oh, yes, I like that possibility as well.

Maybe Mraize wants Restares because he knows how that gemstone was made. Maybe that's the secret they want to extract from him?

Probably not, but it would be cool.

[garlick]

Could the sibling be trapped within this black stone. Maybe just not alone? Possibly BAM and the sibling were trapped at the same time the clashing between the 2 inside is what's causing the warping? The sibling is of odium but on the radiants side causing his voidlight emissions to be different? Its probably a long shot but I didn't see anything like this mentioned so far.

[Lightspine]

6 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Based on Zahel's comment in chapter 15 that Roshar is too young to have fossils... is it too young to have geologically formed gemstones?  We know they have gemhearts, but we just learned that gemhearts apparently are more imperfect than other gemstones.  Where do these other gemstones come from?  Soulcasting?  Smuggling through Shadesmar?  I can't actually think of any other ways form what we know of Roshar.

Gemstones physically cannot be created by Soulcasting. That's probably one of the reasons they're used as currency.

[the_archduke]

1 minute ago, garlick said:

Could the sibling be trapped within this black stone. Maybe just not alone? Possibly BAM and the sibling were trapped at the same time the clashing between the 2 inside is what's causing the warping? The sibling is of odium but on the radiants side causing his voidlight emissions to be different? Its probably a long shot but I didn't see anything like this mentioned so far.

I literally suggested it at the top of the page.

[Gilphon]

So I'm saying that the Black Sphere contains a Fused- it's clearly not just regular Voidlight, it's being emphasized too much to be a regular Voidspren, Navani would've noticed if it was an Unmade, Gavilar was talking about trapping Singer Gods, Rlain was talking about it being bad for his soul, and the Fused are worried about the humans learning to trap them- implying that that's been successfully done at least once. Everything fits. 

I also think that tossing Nergaoul in the ocean is a good call. Like keeping the gem somewhere where humans can get to it is just begging for it to get broken someday, so keep it out of everyone's hands forever. And, in a more meta sense, getting rid of the Thrill was the entire emotional climax of OB; undoing that would just be undermining OB for no reason other than to throw antagonist the heroes have already beaten at them all over again. I honestly not think that that gem's getting found. 

[FollowYourMuse]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

3 hours ago, HipsterStick said:

Also- the Coalition did a really storming stupid thing in just tossing Neragoul into the ocean. Seriously? Are y’all kidding me? Well, at the very least it will prevent the Fused from stealing it once they come to the tower... and maybe some Santhid will pick it up and take it far away.

I am REALLY REALLY hopping that they sunk it at a particular place as a security measure as opposed to just dumping it like idiots.

Dawnshard Speculation

Spoiler

Maybe his is one of the reasons for the trip to Aimia?

 

[HipsterStick]

1 minute ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Dawnshard Speculation

  Hide contents

Maybe his is one of the reasons for the trip to Aimia?

 

Yooooooooooooooo-

This might explain

Spoiler

Lopen’s potential presence on the voyage.

After all- who better to entrust with the hiding away of an Unmade than a Knight Radiant.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, I Am A Fish said:

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, and say that Gavinor's size is probably not genetic. From what we've seen of Dalinar, and Gavilar they're both described as being rather large, and while it is a possibility that such genes exist in Navani's, or Ausedan's family line, family health was often considered before political marriages making it unlikely

Sure but I am taller then either of my parents and about 80 percent of people with achondroplasia are born to parents of average height.

[Gilphon]

I'm of the opinion that picking a particular place to dump the gem would be a mistake- that's leaving clues that somebody looking to find the gem could pick up on. If its location is known, then it's just a matter of breaking through whatever security they've placed, and there more security there is, the more conspicuous the location will be. 

Personally, I can't think of a defensive measure that's better than 'if you want it, you're literally going to have comb through the entire storming ocean'.

[+Bzhydack]

1 minute ago, the_archduke said:

If it isn't an Unmade in the voidlight gem, what else could it be?  I can think of only two possibilities considering Gavilar's comment about holding a god.  One of the Heralds (quick has anyone seen Kelek since the night of Gavilar's death?) or a Godspren (the Sibling is sleeping because he is bound in a gemstone)

But why it glows as Voidlight? Sibling, Herald... they have Connection to Honor, so they would glow as Stormlight.

Dont know why, but my first thought was that this is Ruins Investiture, not Odiums. But is very possible that this is Fused. Or, maybe some theory is correct and this contained BAM bonded with Sibling/part of Sibling (while Cusicesh is other part)?

Also, they should placed Kings Drop in room on lower level of Urithiru and soulcast air in whole room into Aluminum - something like 10ft or more in every direction.

Also, in Kholinar Palace, when they came for Aesudan, Kaladin saw food what should rot and surounded by rotspren, but was fine. Also, how long Elhokar didnt see his son? Gavinor is described as being two or three during Siege of Kholinar - now he is five, and Siege was more than year ago - so he was older. This canot be genetics (every family member is portly - we canot look only on parrents), this can be Ashertmarn influence.

[+Oltux72]

Has this chapter planted the seed for Dalinar totally freaking out? Security around his wife was so shoddy that somebody secretly planted a gem stone in her travel capsule without her telling anybody?

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Dawnshard Speculation

I would be cool with that.

Just now, Gilphon said:

I'm of the opinion that picking a particular place to dump the gem would be a mistake- that's leaving clues that somebody looking to find the gem could pick up on. If its location is known, then it's just a matter of breaking through whatever security they've placed, and there more security there is, the more conspicuous the location will be. 

Security is a balance between strength and secrecy.  You generally can't have both at once so people usually opt for one or the other.  I personally think having the "radiant council" send Kaladin to dump it at super specific coordinates and only sharing this info with successors would work quite well.

[Subvisual Haze]

1 hour ago, Awakened Cremling said:

Sorry if this was already mentioned, haven't read all the discussion yet, but I think Gav is small "for his age" because of the strange time dilation that was going on in the palace. Like the freed "loyalists" who were shocked when they found out how much time had passed.

I think it ties into the fact that humans on Roshar are abnormally tall compared to other Cosmere planets and the Alethi are especially tall even relative to other Rosharan humans.  Specifically humans on Roshar (even more so in the east where the highstorm is strongest) are exposed to lots of Stormlight via the highstorms and living surrounded by gems filled with Stormlight.  It's a similar mechanism, just more gradual, to how the gems+rhythms+lifespren help plants grow better for Rlain.  Latent stormlight and lifespren have been helping humans grow exceptionally well (as well as make them relatively resistant to disease).

So I think Gavinor's growth was suppressed due to being in the palace full of Odiumlight which naturally repelled stormlight.  Also Gavinor is small relative to typical Rosharans, but he might be normal sized for a non-Rosharan human of his age.

[I Am A Fish]

3 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I'm of the opinion that picking a particular place to dump the gem would be a mistake- that's leaving clues that somebody looking to find the gem could pick up on. If its location is known, then it's just a matter of breaking through whatever security they've placed, and there more security there is, the more conspicuous the location will be. 

Personally, I can't think of a defensive measure that's better than 'if you want it, you're literally going to have comb through the entire storming ocean'.

Honestly I appreciate Sanderson dropping the cliche of:

"We put the super dangerous thing in our base of operations, where the bad guys will 'never' get it..."

Personally I think dropping the gemstone in the ocean was a good call.

[Subvisual Haze]

Just now, I Am A Fish said:

Honestly I appreciate Sanderson dropping the cliche of:

"We put the super dangerous thing in our base of operations, where the bad guys will 'never' get it..."

Personally I think dropping the gemstone in the ocean was a good call.

It's classic use of the audience knowing something the character's couldn't.  For the characters within the story it's a logical enough action.  We the readers know though that Nazh was able to recover Shallan and Jasnah's items from the bottom of the ocean, thus it is not a very smart hiding space.

[Innovation]

6 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

It's classic use of the audience knowing something the character's couldn't.  For the characters within the story it's a logical enough action.  We the readers know though that Nazh was able to recover Shallan and Jasnah's items from the bottom of the ocean, thus it is not a very smart hiding space.

By using a form of Investiture detection, Nazh could easily find the sphere. If the word got out that the Thrill was in his possession, it would place him as number one on Odium’s hit list.