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Time for me to add another topic onto the discussion table. Okay, me always had this question and could not find an answer anywhere, so here it is... why don't we see more guns? It's always bugged me that we don't see world hoppers having a gun with them, especially after we see Khriss carrying one in Mistborn: Secret History. That shows that guns have been around since Mistborn Era 1, and that world hoppers do carry them around when traveling to other worlds. So why don't we see Mraize or Hoid carrying them? Hoid might be powerful enough that he doesn't need one, but Mraize? He is a worldhopper and could have easily gone to Scadrial and took a gun with him.

Now, obviously, there are possible explanations, First one is maybe it against the Cosmere laws, as seen in Sixth Dusk, and they can't bring them and accidentally leave them for the populace. problem with that is one, sixth dusk tasks place centuries in the future and may not apply to Mistborn and SA. Next explanation is that gun is inconvenient to carry because once you run out of ammunition, the gun is useless and you can't really make ammunition for yourself out of thin air (unless you're an Elsecaller or Lightweaver). But a gun is still pretty worth it for emergency and then I'd ask why Khriss brought hers. And lastly, it might be the Ire, Ghostbloods, or Seventh Shard that keeps worldhopper from doing it. Mraixe certainly seems to be keeping track of that on Roshar. What do you guys think?

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Guns blow cover pretty easily. Hard to conceal when you're using one, big loud bang and all that, and even carrying one is sometimes hard to conceal with how fashions run on some of these planets. I get the feeling most of the worldhopper organizations have some sweet tech in reserve, they just also prefer to blend in most of the time (Nazh has a gun that shoots Shades, and I doubt there's only one of those, with how good of a weapon is seems to be) and guns don't work with that. The people running intercosmere customs probably don't want something to happen that could disrupt their trade, so they're probably among the ones enforcing it ever there was to be anyone checking for that.

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Hoid can't hurt sentient creatures so that's one down

Khriss was being extra safe because ruin

and Mraise's worldhopper status is questionable.

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57 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Hoid can't hurt sentient creatures so that's one down

Khriss was being extra safe because ruin

and Mraise's worldhopper status is questionable.

If by questionable you mean confirmed, then yeah questionable.

Arthur Dent (paraphrased)

Is [Mraize] a worldhopper?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, he's been to a few planets, highly supervised by his babsk.

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1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

If by questionable you mean confirmed, then yeah questionable.

Arthur Dent (paraphrased)

Is [Mraize] a worldhopper?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, he's been to a few planets, highly supervised by his babsk.

Well played<_<

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My guess would be that Khriss got hers from Taldain, and now that Taldain is harder to get too, Guns from there are less accessible. In this case, however, we should start to see more guns showing up now that Scadrial has them.

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This is a very good question that has been bugging me for some time.  Given the plethora of guns on Scadrial why don't we see any on Nalthis or Roshar?  In fact why aren't Roshar and Nalthis manufacturing their own guns? 

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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is a very good question that has been bugging me for some time.  Given the plethora of guns on Scadrial why don't we see any on Nalthis or Roshar?  In fact why aren't Roshar and Nalthis manufacturing their own guns? 

Well nalthis is under some mastermind plan by endowment that might not involve guns. Roshar is a bit held up with all the

Spoiler

desolations. Besides, they are figuring out some fabrial tech.

 

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

This is a very good question that has been bugging me for some time.  Given the plethora of guns on Scadrial why don't we see any on Nalthis or Roshar?  In fact why aren't Roshar and Nalthis manufacturing their own guns? 

Guns on Scadrial are a recent creation, so it would make sense for it to have not spread. Nalthis, Roshar, and Sel also have large amounts of magic technology and rules to research, so it would make sense they wouldn't develop into the mechanical/chemical sciences as much, so they can't make the guns themselves. Taldain is the only other one to develop guns thus far (that we know of), and it's under a blockade, so the tech can't travel out. 

Also, quite a few world hoppers have access to investiture abilities, so early guns maybe not appear as powerful in comparison. 


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I'm not sure how it would affect guns, but Roshar's atmosphere has a higher oxygen content than earth's. If that affects gunpowder, then that would explain why they don't have guns or gunpowder.

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14 hours ago, Frustration said:

Well played<_<

:D

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

This is a very good question that has been bugging me for some time.  Given the plethora of guns on Scadrial why don't we see any on Nalthis or Roshar?  In fact why aren't Roshar and Nalthis manufacturing their own guns? 

That is a bit more complicated. Seeing someone bring a gun and a civilization inventing one are two different things. Nathline is still fairly in the medical age as far as we know, and Roshar's technology advancement had been hindered multiple times and are focusing a lot on their fabrials. That is more understandable. Worldhopper not having them, though, is where I start getting a bit curious.

 

21 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I'm not sure how it would affect guns, but Roshar's atmosphere has a higher oxygen content than earth's. If that affects gunpowder, then that would explain why they don't have guns or gunpowder.

It might make it more dangerous to use them, though I'm pretty sue they can make a few adjustments to compensate. 

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1 hour ago, Aspiring Writer said:

That is a bit more complicated. Seeing someone bring a gun and a civilization inventing one are two different things. Nathline is still fairly in the medical age as far as we know, and Roshar's technology advancement had been hindered multiple times and are focusing a lot on their fabrials. That is more understandable. Worldhopper not having them, though, is where I start getting a bit curious.

Guns are really not hard to reverse engineer.  If trapped on Nalthis I could make a crude one with the cooperation of some financial backers and at Roshar's current non magic tec level earth cultures already had guns.

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26 minutes ago, Karger said:

Guns are really not hard to reverse engineer.  If trapped on Nalthis I could make a crude one with the cooperation of some financial backers and at Roshar's current non magic tec level earth cultures already had guns.

Well for Roashar wood is a valuable commodity, so messing around with charcoal isn't likely, and could they even get saltpeter? I don't know enough about Roshar's microbiology.

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11 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well for Roashar wood is a valuable commodity, so messing around with charcoal isn't likely, and could they even get saltpeter? I don't know enough about Roshar's microbiology.

They can soul cast wood.

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5 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Well for Roashar wood is a valuable commodity, so messing around with charcoal isn't likely, and could they even get saltpeter? I don't know enough about Roshar's microbiology.

None of the components of gunpowder are chemically complex and all are highly distinctive.  Soulcasting would not be a challenge.  Despite it being somewhat expensive on roshar people do also burn wood.  I think wood houses being expensive is partially because of the inflated upkeep costs due to highstorms.  I can make saltpewter from scratch.  All it takes is two years some, urine and decade plants and surfer has to be available on roshar or humans could not live there.  Nalthis of course has an earth biosphere so same methods should work.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

None of the components of gunpowder are chemically complex and all are highly distinctive.  Soulcasting would not be a challenge.  Despite it being somewhat expensive on roshar people do also burn wood.  I think wood houses being expensive is partially because of the inflated upkeep costs due to highstorms.  I can make saltpewter from scratch.  All it takes is two years some, urine and decade plants and surfer has to be available on roshar or humans could not live there.  Nalthis of course has an earth biosphere so same methods should work.

They have the means, but that doesn't mean they have the initiative yet. We had the means for hundreds of years before we started manufacturing them. They for the time being seem more interested in fabrials, which you can't really blame them for, seeing as gemhearts are so common and can do things centuries ahead of their time. Now, if someone could worldhop there with a gun and start introducing it there, then they could probably make a superadvanced army and take over the world.

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25 minutes ago, Karger said:

None of the components of gunpowder are chemically complex and all are highly distinctive.  Soulcasting would not be a challenge.  Despite it being somewhat expensive on roshar people do also burn wood.  I think wood houses being expensive is partially because of the inflated upkeep costs due to highstorms.  I can make saltpewter from scratch.  All it takes is two years some, urine and decade plants and surfer has to be available on roshar or humans could not live there.  Nalthis of course has an earth biosphere so same methods should work.

I don't know if that particular microbe lives on Roshar.

Maybe it does, but either way wood is used as a status symbol at the moment so I doubt it would be used in such a way for a while.

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16 minutes ago, Frustration said:

I don't know if that particular microbe lives on Roshar.

What particular microbe?  Decomposition absolutely must exist on roshar.

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Maybe it does, but either way wood is used as a status symbol at the moment so I doubt it would be used in such a way for a while.

Dalinar comments that before heatrails they burned wood and plenty of people still do use heatrails.  They also soulcast and chop lumber.  It is not just a status symbol.

39 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

They have the means, but that doesn't mean they have the initiative yet. We had the means for hundreds of years before we started manufacturing them. They for the time being seem more interested in fabrials, which you can't really blame them for, seeing as gemhearts are so common and can do things centuries ahead of their time. Now, if someone could worldhop there with a gun and start introducing it there, then they could probably make a superadvanced army and take over the world.

Rosharans might be more interested in fabrails but if a couple of country rosharan nobbles saw a firearm I would imagine a repeat of the exact same thing that happened in ancient Japan.  Nalthis of course does not even have fabrails and there exists absolutely no reason roshar could not have both.

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Rosharans might be more interested in fabrails but if a couple of country rosharan nobbles saw a firearm I would imagine a repeat of the exact same thing that happened in ancient Japan.  Nalthis of course does not even have fabrails and there exists absolutely no reason roshar could not have both

Oh, 100% yeah Guns are very useful. I have no doubt they would try if they knew what a gun was. I was just saying why they haven't made one yet. Like, they made super bow fabrial. They are far too focused on fabriels right now to even conceive of guns. Natline, though, I imagine is probably on its way toward guns and we just aren't in that time period as of Warbreaker.

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4 minutes ago, Karger said:

What particular microbe?  Decomposition absolutely must exist on roshar.

.... I just looked, I did some research on Saltpeter not so long ago, I could have sworn that it was made by a particular microbe, bit apparently not.

1 minute ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Oh, 100% yeah Guns are very useful. I have no doubt they would try if they knew what a gun was. I was just saying why they haven't made one yet. Like, they made super bow fabrial. They are far too focused on fabriels right now to even conceive of guns. Natline, though, I imagine is probably on its way toward guns and we just aren't in that time period as of Warbreaker.

Not just Fabrials, shards, that is why they haven't looked into alternative weapons, they are too busy trying to re-create shards.

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Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

Oh, 100% yeah Guns are very useful. I have no doubt they would try if they knew what a gun was. I was just saying why they haven't made one yet. Like, they made super bow fabrial. They are far too focused on fabriels right now to even conceive of guns

Sure.  Except we know some worldhoppers travel with guns.  Meaning that cosmere aware Rosharans as well as rosharns that travel to say scadrail should know what a gun is and come back with the ability to make one.  Nalthis is even worse in some respects.  Imagine Nalthis's customs agency not knowing what a gun was.

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Just now, Karger said:

Sure.  Except we know some worldhoppers travel with guns.  Meaning that cosmere aware Rosharans as well as rosharns that travel to say scadrail should know what a gun is and come back with the ability to make one.  Nalthis is even worse in some respects.  Imagine Nalthis's customs agency not knowing what a gun was.

Yeah, that's part of my problem is why nobody seems to b trying to equip the rosharians with guns during a war with Odium with Cosmere wide effects. This is the one place you might want to intervene as literally nothing you do can be worse than letting Odium loose to keep killing all the Shards or reasons nobody knows.

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42 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Yeah, that's part of my problem is why nobody seems to b trying to equip the rosharians with guns during a war with Odium with Cosmere wide effects. This is the one place you might want to intervene as literally nothing you do can be worse than letting Odium loose to keep killing all the Shards or reasons nobody knows.

Well, you can see part of the reason in all the Shards' (and Frost's) responses to Hoid's letters. "Rayse's not a problem. He's contained. Stop interfering, you'll just make things worse." is what's said by Autonomy, Endowment, and Frost.

Harmony would be sympathetic. But he's busy. And perhaps whatever that "Red Mist" around Scadrial is supposed to represent is what's preventing tech from leaving there. (I've heard the theory somewhere on these boards that Autonomy wants the different planets to all develop independently, without interference; it's why they blocked travel to/from Taldain, so that Taldain tech wouldn't influence the rest of the cosmere's development. Perhaps Autonomy's doing the same thing to Scadrial, preventing their tech from being exported - at scale, at least, though individual people might get out.)

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5 minutes ago, ftl said:

Harmony would be sympathetic. But he's busy. And perhaps whatever that "Red Mist" around Scadrial is supposed to represent is what's preventing tech from leaving there. (I've heard the theory somewhere on these boards that Autonomy wants the different planets to all develop independently, without interference; it's why they blocked travel to/from Taldain, so that Taldain tech wouldn't influence the rest of the cosmere's development. Perhaps Autonomy's doing the same thing to Scadrial, preventing their tech from being exported - at scale, at least, though individual people might get out.)

That would actually make a lot of sense.  Autonomy blockading any shardworld that looked like it would export significant technologies would explain a lot about the cosmere.  It also increases the importance of Roshar if true.  She might want to block them as well but the number of shards already in attendance means doing so would be difficult to impossible.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

That would actually make a lot of sense.  Autonomy blockading any shardworld that looked like it would export significant technologies would explain a lot about the cosmere.  It also increases the importance of Roshar if true.  She might want to block them as well but the number of shards already in attendance means doing so would be difficult to impossible.

Agreed, and it makes Autonomy more of an obstacle rather than an antagonist for the time being. How she'll react to space travel is going to be fun.

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