Truthwatcher Artifabrian

theory
Radiant Order Cousin Spren

27 posts in this topic

We’ve heard from Syl that the windspren are cousins to the honorspren. We’ve also seen tons of examples of windspren circling around Kaladin. Strangely, this even happened once in the cognitive realm. We’ve also seen gloryspren Circle Dalinar when he opened the perpendicularity. And now we see emerald and rhythms empowering lifespren to enhance the growth of plants. I believe that there is one particular cousin spren for every radiant spren, and that cousin spren serves multiple purposes.

The radiant spren, while unintelligent in the physical realm without a bond, will spend time around the same things as the cousin spren, and with other cousin spren.

Cousin spren will encircle the radiant during certain important moments.
The radiant can turn nearby cousin spren into Shardplate. For example a windrunner’s Shardplate would be made of ten windspren. Doing something like dismissing only the helm would dismiss only one of the cousin spren.

And I think each gemstone, when given the right rhythm, will only empower the cousin spren of the order that gemstone is associated with. So for example a sapphire would empower windspren, probably making a windy area.

 

Here’s what I think each of the cousin spren could be:

Bondsmith: gloryspren

Windrunner: windspren

Edgedancer: lifespren

Lightweaver: creationspren (how many times have we seen Shallan attract an abnormal amount of these?)

Stoneward: groundspren

 

Here are some cousin spren that I’m less  sure about:

Dustbringer: decayspren

Elsecaller: logicspren

 

Even less sure:

Skybreaker: starspren (both they and highspren appear in the sky?)

Truthwatcher: concentrationspren (this is another scholar order)

 

Finally, what I’m reduced to guessing about: Willshapers. All I’ve got is captivityspren, which is kind of opposite.

 

Thoughts?

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2 hours ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

now we see emerald and rhythms empowering lifespren

I think each gemstone, when given the right rhythm, will only empower the cousin spren of the order that gemstone is associated with.

Edgedancer: lifespren

Truthwatcher: concentrationspren


Hmm. Well, there's a contradiction afoot here; Edgedancers are associated with diamonds (crystal) and truthwatchers are associated with Emeralds (plants), yet you've put Lifespren in association with the Edgedancers despite being enhanced by Emeralds as we've seen.

Now I'm not just saying this to be like "look at my superior intellect" or something. No. I will not be "that guy". I am simply pointing this out and agreeing with your initial belief that the cousinspren are empowered by the gem associated with their order, and disagreeing that Lifespren are associated with Truthwatchers, until we see conclusive proof otherwise.

Yes, Edgedancers use Progression to heal wounds, which is very "lively" in a sense, but that's not what we see the Lifespren doing when empowered with Emeralds. We see them causing the crops to grow, not repair themselves. I think that is perhaps more in line with what a "typical" Truthwatcher would be using Progression for, on average, when filling their scholarly role. Think about it; Truthwatchers also have Illumination, they could make synthetic sunlight and use that to help grow the plants they're using Progression on. Botany is their strong suit, and hey, they're associated with Emeralds, the essence of plants! How about that.

So in lieu of Lifespren, what could the Edgedancers attract as cousinspren to Cultivationspren? Hmm... Good question. I almost want to say Keenspren because of Wyndle and his commentary about making a garden for them... But then again he says that as a comparison for strangeness. While I don't doubt that could be brilliant foreshadowing on Brandon's part, I'm still skeptical on that. I'm sure there's something.

Anyway, moving on from that;
 

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

Skybreaker: starspren

I feel like it could be Luckspren; the spren that Skyeels and Chasmfiends bond with to overcome gravity. Windspren are already taken by the Windrunners, who also use Gravitation, and Luckspren are visibly associated with gravity.

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4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Edgedancers are associated with diamonds (crystal) and truthwatchers are associated with Emeralds (plants), yet you've put Lifespren in association with the Edgedancers despite being enhanced by Emeralds as we've seen.

Good catch.

4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I almost want to say Keenspren

That’s a good guess, though I actually think keenspren are the radiant spren of the Truthwatchers. Wyndle’s comparison for strangeness includes growing a garden for them, implying that they are intelligent.

 

4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

I feel like it could be Luckspren; the spren that Skyeels and Chasmfiends bond with to overcome gravity. Windspren are already taken by the Windrunners, who also use Gravitation, and Luckspren are visibly associated with gravity.

I didn’t consider those. I agree.

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26 minutes ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

Good catch.

Ah, good, so I didn't come off as that pompous know-it-all type as I worried I might.

26 minutes ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

That’s a good guess, though I actually think keenspren are the radiant spren of the Truthwatchers. Wyndle’s comparison for strangeness includes growing a garden for them, implying that they are intelligent.

I also agree here, but the possibility crossed my mind nonetheless. Besides, growing a garden for someone you love isn't that strange if you both like plants...

26 minutes ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

I didn’t consider those. I agree.

I also like your idea of Decayspren being the Dustbringer cousinspren; that would be another bit of stigma against them that would make them feel more like the "bad guys" along with the name being so alike to Voidbringers and them having, you know, Division, which can kill people even without needing a Blade...

Also if Truthwatchers aren't Concentrationspren then perhaps those could go with Willshapers? Their divine attributes are "resolute/builder", so I could see a Willshaper undertaking a task that demands particular focus. The ripple effect of a Concentrationspren and the deep focus needed to attract them reminds me of the Lightspren's copper vibration communications to an extent as well.

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8 hours ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

Dustbringer: decayspren

I think the common guess for this one is flamespren, because ash and ruby, but afaik I think that's just a guess based on those things? So I could maybe see decayspren instead. 

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1 minute ago, beewall said:

I think the common guess for this one is flamespren, because ash and ruby, but afaik I think that's just a guess based on those things? So I could maybe see decayspren instead. 

Oh yeah, Flamespren... I'll be honest, I kinda forgot about those.

So yeah, either one would make sense tbh.

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Definitly flamespren for Dustbringers and Ashspren, everything here is about fire.

I also think lifespren for Truthwatchers, they seems to be the closest to Cultivation and are much more conected to "growing" things.

But this leaves us Edgedancers. Maybe Joyspren? Or, little unintuitivly, painspren?

For Willshapers Passionspren are good fit, I guess.

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Yeah. Dustbringers could be flamespren as well.

I could see Willshapers with concentrationspren. Passionspren makes sense, but concentrationspren seems better to me.
I’m not sure what Edgedancers could be now.

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1 hour ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

I’m not sure what Edgedancers could be now.

I almost want to go out on a limb and say Deathspren, simply because Edgedancers would likely be near to many people near death, while using Progression to save them. Plus, wouldn't that just be the greatest thematic duality, with their main spren being of Cultivation? And conquering Death in such a fashion that the spren of death itself protects you (assuming that cousinspren are what make Shardplate).

Edited by Halyo_Alex
Clarity
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A connection I see with a lot of the cousin spren of each order is that they all seem to have some association with one of the surges that the order uses
Windrunners: Windspren, who appear to use Adhesion
Skybreakers: Luckspren, who manipulate Gravitation
Truthwatchers: Lifespren, who are attracted to Progression and appear to somewhat use it (see: the organic fabrial in Chapter Fifteen)
Dustbrigers: Flamespren, who are likely more associated with Division, with the belief that fire 'consumes' stuff
Edgedancers: No real clue to be honest, but it would be one associated with Abrasion given this trend
Lightweavers: Creationspren, who are attracted to Illumination and the creations a Radiant can make
Elsecallers: Not much idea, but it would be to do with Transformation or Transportation, I'm leaning towards Transportation, given their name, but this leaves Transformation without a spren (Lightweavers are the other order with Transformation, and they have to take a spren associated with Illumination, given Truthwatchers have one for Progression)
Willshapers: Probably something associated with Cohesion, though it could also be Transportation instead of Elsecallers, their essence is also of Foil, so that may be important too
Stonewards: They have Cohesion and Tension, but I'd be inclined towards the one related to Cohesion being associated here instead, given the way the different spren and orders line up above, and the idea that the Stonewards are considered the most strong and dependable order, after their Herald Taln, likely making them excellent for morale in combat, allowing increased cohesion between troops.
Bondsmiths: We have good evidence that this is gloryspren, but this is where my whole theory falls right down, as I don't see how they could be associated with Tension, Windrunners have already taken Adhesion, and I'm loathe to just go 'Bondsmiths are weird and special so they break the rules' and ignore this.

If there is some glaring issue in my logic here, or an obvious point where I've completely gone out on a limb in a way that isn't really intuitive, feel free to critique. Hopefully this makes some sense to someone else, and I'd be interested to see what people come up with for the unknown orders.

Edited by Realmatic Shadow
Added some bolding to make the wall of text look slightly more like separate points
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1 hour ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

A connection I see with a lot of the cousin spren of each order is that they all seem to have some association with one of the surges that the order uses

That is cool, I didn’t notice that.

Dustbringers: either flamespren or decayspren work easily with division. I’m still leaning toward decayspren, though.
Elsecallers: logicspren might make sense for transformation, seeing as how in fabrials they transform the level of light output. Or is that too far-fetched?

Willshapers: I don’t see passionspren or concentrationspren working with transportation. We really need more Willshaper cousin spren candidates.

Stonewards: groundspren feel like they match cohesion.

Bondsmiths: Now you actually have me expecting gloryspren to start using tension. It would make so much sense.

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44 minutes ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

Dustbringers: either flamespren or decayspren work easily with division. I’m still leaning toward decayspren, though.

I forgot that decayspren were one that was also a popular candidate (also completely forgot they were a type of spren to be honest), but they certainly seem to fit better than flamespren for being associated to Division, though I do think that flamespren are more closely tied to Ashspren than decayspren are. We haven't really seen enough of the Dustbrigers and them using their surges to get a proper idea of what a cousin spren for them would be, so I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing some more of them in RoW

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On 10/19/2020 at 8:38 PM, Realmatic Shadow said:

I forgot that decayspren were one that was also a popular candidate (also completely forgot they were a type of spren to be honest), but they certainly seem to fit better than flamespren for being associated to Division, though I do think that flamespren are more closely tied to Ashspren than decayspren are. We haven't really seen enough of the Dustbrigers and them using their surges to get a proper idea of what a cousin spren for them would be, so I'm looking forward to hopefully seeing some more of them in RoW

To be fair; Ashspren in the CR do "decay" repeatedly, their "skin" peels off to reveal bones beneath and then reforms soon afterwards.

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I feel like there should be something extra special when you use cousin spren in fabrials. That’s why I think it’s decayspren instead of flamespren, because we know flamespren aren’t that unique in fabrials. Among the other cousin spren candidates, we’ve only seen logicspren in fabrials and they are unique.

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Willshapers would be Starspren. When Venli first saw Timbre, she noticed the connection: “are you one of those Spren that moves in the sky at night?” (Not perfectly accurate). It makes sense for Starspren and Lightspren to go together. After all, stars do provide most of the light in the universe. And Starspren are always moving around in the sky at night, almost like they are exploring the sky. Exploration along with freedom and resoluteness is a core Willshaper attribute. 

Edited by Innovation
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On 10/17/2020 at 5:26 PM, Halyo_Alex said:


Hmm. Well, there's a contradiction afoot here; Edgedancers are associated with diamonds (crystal) and truthwatchers are associated with Emeralds (plants), yet you've put Lifespren in association with the Edgedancers despite being enhanced by Emeralds as we've seen.

Now I'm not just saying this to be like "look at my superior intellect" or something. No. I will not be "that guy". I am simply pointing this out and agreeing with your initial belief that the cousinspren are empowered by the gem associated with their order, and disagreeing that Lifespren are associated with Truthwatchers, until we see conclusive proof otherwise.

Yes, Edgedancers use Progression to heal wounds, which is very "lively" in a sense, but that's not what we see the Lifespren doing when empowered with Emeralds. We see them causing the crops to grow, not repair themselves. I think that is perhaps more in line with what a "typical" Truthwatcher would be using Progression for, on average, when filling their scholarly role. Think about it; Truthwatchers also have Illumination, they could make synthetic sunlight and use that to help grow the plants they're using Progression on. Botany is their strong suit, and hey, they're associated with Emeralds, the essence of plants! How about that.

So in lieu of Lifespren, what could the Edgedancers attract as cousinspren to Cultivationspren? Hmm... Good question. I almost want to say Keenspren because of Wyndle and his commentary about making a garden for them... But then again he says that as a comparison for strangeness. While I don't doubt that could be brilliant foreshadowing on Brandon's part, I'm still skeptical on that. I'm sure there's something.

Anyway, moving on from that;
 

I feel like it could be Luckspren; the spren that Skyeels and Chasmfiends bond with to overcome gravity. Windspren are already taken by the Windrunners, who also use Gravitation, and Luckspren are visibly associated with gravity.

Two problems. First is that Edgedancer and Truthwatcher spren are weird from what we've seen in Shadesmar and in the PR- the other spren seem to broadly conform or link to their respective soulcasting elements and gems, but Cultivationspren (who should be primarily of crystal) are made of vines while Truthwatcher spren are said by Jasnah to be appearing in the Physical like light from a reflection. Second- Lift frequently draws lifespren in Edgedancer.

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Given the new evidence in the form of Herald portraits, here is my proposition:

Bondsmith: gloryspren

Windrunner: windspren

Edgedancer: lifespren

Lightweaver: creationspren

Stonewards: painspren

Skybreakers: luckspren / Mandras

Willshapers: laughterspren

Dustbringers: flamespren

Truthwatchers: logicspren

Elsecallers: ??????? (I was convinced it would be logicspren, but apparently that's not the case)

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22 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Elsecallers: ??????? (I was convinced it would be logicspren, but apparently that's not the case)

It makes sense to me that Truthwatchers get the logicspren, and not Elsecallers. Just because Jasnah is scholarly doesn't make all Elsecallers scholarly. No, what makes them an Elsecaller is revealed by those nice phrases we've got for each of them. "I will reach my potential," it says for Elsecallers, but for Truthwatchers it is, "I will seek Truth." You can see which one logicspren are associated with.

So, for Elsecallers, is there some kind of ambitionspren? Desirespren? Greedspren? I'm drawing a blank, but hopefully someone else can remember a spren mentioned somehwere that fits.

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36 minutes ago, Rainier said:

So, for Elsecallers, is there some kind of ambitionspren? Desirespren? Greedspren? I'm drawing a blank, but hopefully someone else can remember a spren mentioned somehwere that fits.

I really like ambitionspren, but unfortunately none of these names ever came up in the books. Could be concentrationspren though. Or awespren, maybe?

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22 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Could be concentrationspren though. Or awespren, maybe?

Awespren felt right in my gut upon first glance. Just perfect to me, but I can't explain why. The way people look at you in awe? You inspire awe in others? I could see it. Concentrationspren makes more sense, because concentration is what it takes to achieve your potential, at every step of the way. Concentration to find out how to get good, and how to break it up, and concentrating on perfecting each part. Great suggestions.

Edited by Rainier
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2 hours ago, Rainier said:

No, what makes them an Elsecaller is revealed by those nice phrases we've got for each of them. "I will reach my potential," it says for Elsecallers, but for Truthwatchers it is, "I will seek Truth." You can see which one logicspren are associated with.

looks at "I will protect" leading to windspren

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12 hours ago, beewall said:

looks at "I will protect" leading to windspren

The way I see it, we have five types of cousin spren corresponding to Surges:

Windspren = Adhesion

Luckspren = Gravitation

Lifespren = Progression

Flamespren = Division

Creationspren = Illumination

Then, there are four spren types that match the character of an Order or its Herald:

Gloryspren = Bondsmiths

Painspren = Stonewards

Logicspren = Truthwatchers

Laughterspren = Willshapers

For symmetry reasons, I would assume that the Elsecaller spren would match the Order's attitude or personality rather than Surge

Edited by KandraAllomancer
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10 hours ago, KandraAllomancer said:

For symmetry reasons, I would assume that the Elsecaller spren would match the Order's attitude or personality rather than Surge

Then I'll choose to think it's Concentrationspren, for now. It fits, and leaves Logicspren for the Truthwatchers.

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So I'm not sure if this is a crazy idea, but looking at the official illustrations of the heralds for spren clues it seems like Talenel is surrounded by exhaustion spren.

From the coppermind:

"A type of spren that appear around exhausted people. In the Physical Realm, they appear as brown-colored jets of dust shooting up in the air.[9][108] In Shadesmar, they seem indistinct yet also large and birdlike.[107]

I know lots of people have suggested pain spren for the stonewards but too me this seems a much better match for the picture whilst still in the same realm. Exhaustion being similar to pain.

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On 11/2/2020 at 10:49 AM, Branf said:

So I'm not sure if this is a crazy idea, but looking at the official illustrations of the heralds for spren clues it seems like Talenel is surrounded by exhaustion spren.

From the coppermind:

"A type of spren that appear around exhausted people. In the Physical Realm, they appear as brown-colored jets of dust shooting up in the air.[9][108] In Shadesmar, they seem indistinct yet also large and birdlike.[107]

 

I know lots of people have suggested pain spren for the stonewards but too me this seems a much better match for the picture whilst still in the same realm. Exhaustion being similar to pain.

I think we should definitely be using the herald illustrations! I'm surprised that I didn't see a thread about that after the new images were posted.

All the illustrations can be found at the bottom of this page:

https://coppermind.net/wiki/Herald

Some of the images from Oathbringer clearly show cousin spren we already know. Jezrien has windspren around him, and Ishar has gloryspren. Vedel seems to have lifespren around her, which would indicate them being the cousin spren of Edgedancers. However, we can't see any creationspren around Shalash.

As for the new drawings, Paliah clearly has logicspren around her so that would support the comments that they are associatied with truthwatchers. Nale has this blue light around him which might be a spren, but might just be stormlight. If they're spren, they could be awespren or bindspren (the ones Kaladin sees when he makes his Full Lashing). Bindspren fits the description better and also makes sense because binding & law but it's also super weird because it seems associated with Adhesion, a surge which the Skybreakers don't have.

Kalak clearly has some spren in a V pattern at the bottom of his painting. They look like white petals—shamespren? That doesn't really make sense. I don't think I identified it correctly. Chanarach is also surrounded by red petals... which also could be shamespren. But that makes even less sense to me.

I agree that exhaustionspren are the best candidate for Taln's picture.

 

Edited by Lightspine
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