Jump to content

Sadness and Aching in Mistborn


E-Harmony

Recommended Posts

When I read Mistborn I feel a constant gnawing sadness in my gut, especially after reading Era 2 and knowing what these heroes fought for and how much better life is for everyone (although still really flawed). And the fact that Vin, Elend, Kelsier, and the rest of the crew had to experience such pain but get to reap none of the rewards.

Then I think about Sazed and how he’s trying to make it all work the best he can and I wonder if he thinks of them with longing or sadness, or is he too changed by the Shards to feel anything for his former friends? 
 

So I made this video to try to capture this sadness/emotional ache I get from this series

Do y’all feel the same way?

Edited by E-Harmony
Title fix
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, YeetletheBeetle said:

Wow. This is so cool. I actually feel the same way, in that I can't help but feel that the original crew's reward wasn't big enough.

  Reveal hidden contents

Though after reading Mistborn: Secret History, and seeing how happy Vin was with Elend, I sort of see that Vin at least is happy enough.

 

Oh yeah I did my version of crying when that moment in SH, a moistening of the eyes. Mistborn can just make me feel on a level that not many series can 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/16/2020 at 6:15 PM, E-Harmony said:

When I read Mistborn I feel a constant gnawing sadness in my gut, especially after reading Era 2 and knowing what these heroes fought for and how much better life is for everyone (although still really flawed). And the fact that Vin, Elend, Kelsier, and the rest of the crew had to experience such pain but get to reap none of the rewards.

Then I think about Sazed and how he’s trying to make it all work the best he can and I wonder if he thinks of them with longing or sadness, or is he too changed by the Shards to feel anything for his former friends? 

I haven't watched the video yet, but props on making it! To answer the question...not really? The ending to the OT is most definitely bittersweet, but I never got a feeling of sadness from it. 

 

Spoiler

Vin and Elend both die with purpose and are happy to pass to the other side together, Kelsier is alive and most likely has enjoyed the new world,

and most of the crew lived to see the new era. Heck, most of the crew seemingly get to enjoy lives of luxury and legend after everything. I'd call that the opposite of sadness.

Sazed notes that 

Spoiler

Vin and Elend are most likely happy where they are

so I don't think he's too broken up about how things ended for his friends either. At least not for the friends who made it. For those who didn't, I bet there was a time where Sazed felt such sorrow.

 

All of this said, I very much understand the emotions you feel about this and how you could see the sacrifices of Kel's crew this way. But at the end of the day, most of the crew made it and lived well enough to be legendary in status 300 years later. Just because they didn't have all of the conveniences of the Era 2 modern life doesn't mean they didn't have fulfilling or happy lives. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Well...

  Reveal hidden contents

Kell is probably getting to enjoy it...

Also, Spook, Breeze, Ham, Marsh, Mardra, Beldre, Alriane and Demoux made it.

Yeah I’m mainly just talking about main characters. Marsh is spiked through the eyes and committed horrible atrocities so I don’t think he’s enjoying anything lol. Spook is now in charge of trying to help create a new world so he’s basically stressed as hell, Breeze is advising him but he’s Breeze so I’ll give you him, and I’d say Ham is probably happy to be with his family. So I’d say for me 2 of the whole crew get to experience the fruits of their labor in a meaningful way

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, E-Harmony said:

Yeah I’m mainly just talking about main characters. Marsh is spiked through the eyes and committed horrible atrocities so I don’t think he’s enjoying anything lol. Spook is now in charge of trying to help create a new world so he’s basically stressed as hell, Breeze is advising him but he’s Breeze so I’ll give you him, and I’d say Ham is probably happy to be with his family. So I’d say for me 2 of the whole crew get to experience the fruits of their labor in a meaningful way

Spook apparently has a big family, and lives a long time before he steps down, so I think he enjoys it. 
 

And I find it hard to believe Kell didn’t enjoy the new world. Marsh likely does too, though his personality means he’d have trouble admitting it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

33 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Spook apparently has a big family, and lives a long time before he steps down, so I think he enjoys it. 
 

And I find it hard to believe Kell didn’t enjoy the new world. Marsh likely does too, though his personality means he’d have trouble admitting it.

Lol alright point taken, but you know what I mean!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, E-Harmony said:

Lol alright point taken, but you know what I mean!

Not entirely, actually. Could you expand on it? I have an NVLD, so I don’t always get subtext.

 

To me it seems Spook eventually came into his own as ruler and enjoyed a good life. You don’t rule for 100 odd years without getting some enjoyment from your job.

Kelsier is just the type of person who finds something to enjoy in (nearly) all situations. I think he’s been having a lot of fun on ‘new’ Scadrial.

Marsh is the exact opposite of his brother. Everything can be perfect and he’d still be overly grim and morose. He’s not a naturally happy person. I think he does enjoy it more than he’ll admit though. He does seem a bit happier in W&W’s time, and I doubt Kell would allow Marsh to make himself completely miserable.

 

Besides, they’ll have movies soon. Do you really think Kell isn’t going to enjoy a theatrical performance of The Final Empire? (He probably goes to all the plays - and drags Marsh along so he has someone he can laugh with about the inaccuracies. Marsh... enjoys these outings far more than he’ll ever admit.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Yeah but I feel like they are just more unaware right? Or is it unknown if they retain consciousness when they go beyond?

 

I don't think 

Spoiler

Vin and Elend really cared. Elend knew that his people were safe, and that was good enough for him. Vin was more or less living for Elend, and once he died she was fine dying to. 

Living in a new world...that wasn't either of their dreams. I think they'd just be happy that

Spoiler

Ruin was defeated and the world wasn't destroyed. 

 

In terms to your original question, I don't think that's a thing that Sanderson will ever answer. 

 

2 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Marsh is spiked through the eyes and committed horrible atrocities so I don’t think he’s enjoying anything lol.

We actually have an answer to this!

Quote

Questioner

Is Marsh happy?

Brandon Sanderson

Marsh is Marsh's version of happy.

Questioner

I'm just worried about him.

Brandon Sanderson

...He has never been a happy person. But he's in a better place now than he's been in other times of his life.

There's a part of Marsh that really likes skulking around and being an incarnation of Death in peoples' minds. He's not really one, but you know what I mean? There's a part of him, the part that's related to his brother, that really digs that, even if he would never admit it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Not entirely, actually. Could you expand on it? I have an NVLD, so I don’t always get subtext.

 

14 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Brandon Sanderson

...He has never been a happy person. But he's in a better place now than he's been in other times of his life.

There's a part of Marsh that really likes skulking around and being an incarnation of Death in peoples' minds. He's not really one, but you know what I mean? There's a part of him, the part that's related to his brother, that really digs that, even if he would never admit it.

I think where we're differing here is our definitions of enjoyment. And by no means am I presuming to tell BrandoSando he's wrong about his character lol. But I think I can read character differently than what an author says is the way a character is feeling if that makes sense. This is actually something that is not my favorite in Brandon's writing as I've said in many other posts previously, the over-feeding of character information so that there is not much room for the reader to make interpretations, or if they do, then they have to go against BS' actual writing. I mean Brandon says, Marsh has never been a happy person, so even if he's "his version of happy" that's still not happy in my mind. And my point with Spook and everyone else for that matter is not that they get literally zero enjoyment, it's that they have to be the ones forging the new world instead of being able to have simple lives without all the stresses, headaches, worry etc.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown. anyone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

 

I think where we're differing here is our definitions of enjoyment. And by no means am I presuming to tell BrandoSando he's wrong about his character lol. But I think I can read character differently than what an author says is the way a character is feeling if that makes sense. This is actually something that is not my favorite in Brandon's writing as I've said in many other posts previously, the over-feeding of character information so that there is not much room for the reader to make interpretations, or if they do, then they have to go against BS' actual writing. I mean Brandon says, Marsh has never been a happy person, so even if he's "his version of happy" that's still not happy in my mind. And my point with Spook and everyone else for that matter is not that they get literally zero enjoyment, it's that they have to be the ones forging the new world instead of being able to have simple lives without all the stresses, headaches, worry etc.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown. anyone?

Spook may very well have lived beyond his rulership, and he probably didn’t need to rule as long as he did. I think he enjoyed ruling.

 

Marsh is just one of those people who is happy when unhappy, if that makes sense. He’s really the ‘crotchety old grandpa’ type character, without being an actual grandpa. Those types of characters often are dour, and seemingly always unhappy and never satisfied. But they’re actually much happier than they appear.

Marsh is a pessimist. He’s never going to be able to ‘enjoy’ things the way an optimist does. His brain keeps pointing out the flaws. But he definitely seems to be happier than he was, and I think he is enjoying himself to the extent that he allows himself to do so.

And every once in a while Kell drops in to annoy Marsh into laughing. And to drag him to the theatre. “Oh, you’re coming. They cast Dox as woman - it’s going to be great!”

 

Personally, I like the info drops. There’s still plenty of room to explore around them. And I especially like them when they agree with me... lol!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

 

I think where we're differing here is our definitions of enjoyment. And by no means am I presuming to tell BrandoSando he's wrong about his character lol. But I think I can read character differently than what an author says is the way a character is feeling if that makes sense. This is actually something that is not my favorite in Brandon's writing as I've said in many other posts previously, the over-feeding of character information so that there is not much room for the reader to make interpretations, or if they do, then they have to go against BS' actual writing. I mean Brandon says, Marsh has never been a happy person, so even if he's "his version of happy" that's still not happy in my mind. And my point with Spook and everyone else for that matter is not that they get literally zero enjoyment, it's that they have to be the ones forging the new world instead of being able to have simple lives without all the stresses, headaches, worry etc.

Heavy is the head that wears the crown. anyone?

I think compared to their previous lives, they'd be happy with the stresses of the new world. When you're working in a position that you never thought you'd have, doing what you love, and are surrounded by the people you love, the stresses of the job are an easy and fair price. Spook now has the powers he's always wanted, the girl he really liked, and the recognition he always wanted. What's more to love? Breeze gets to be influential without being too much in the spotlight; and Sazed found that he holds the truth he was looking for.

In terms of simple lives, when has that ever been hinted that the surviving members ever really wanted simple lives? Maybe Ham, but I can't imagine that he didn't have time for his family in the new world.

In terms of Marsh, he knows he's doing good work on the side of good. He could still hang out with his old friends if he desired (post-Era 1), and gets to scare people. Is he euphoric? No, but I honestly doubt he would ever be that. Frankly, how could he be? His younger brother got the Mistborn powers, got the pleasure of being the "hero" and completing Marsh's dream with the Resistance, and ultimately got the girl. Marsh's happiness was doomed before we met him. But now, he at least has a chance to be content with where he is, something he never really was in Era 1.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Use the Falchion said:

I see what you did there! 

 

My headcannon is that Brandon’s script is an in-world movie/play.

Kell goes to every version of TFE that he can find/get to. Marsh claims it’s his brother’s ego; Kell claims it’s because it’s funny seeing how much they get wrong. The truth, which neither will admit, is that Kell misses the crew and this is his way of mourning them and keeping them alive.

Also, at some point someone comes up with the Scadrian version of Christian heavy metal, and calls a band ‘The Survivor’s Crew.’ Kell is their silent backer. And yes, Marsh gets dragged, protesting, to all the shows, which he enjoys far more than he’d ever admit.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I think compared to their previous lives, they'd be happy with the stresses of the new world. When you're working in a position that you never thought you'd have, doing what you love, and are surrounded by the people you love, the stresses of the job are an easy and fair price. Spook now has the powers he's always wanted, the girl he really liked, and the recognition he always wanted. What's more to love? Breeze gets to be influential without being too much in the spotlight; and Sazed found that he holds the truth he was looking for.

In terms of simple lives, when has that ever been hinted that the surviving members ever really wanted simple lives? Maybe Ham, but I can't imagine that he didn't have time for his family in the new world.

In terms of Marsh, he knows he's doing good work on the side of good. He could still hang out with his old friends if he desired (post-Era 1), and gets to scare people. Is he euphoric? No, but I honestly doubt he would ever be that. Frankly, how could he be? His younger brother got the Mistborn powers, got the pleasure of being the "hero" and completing Marsh's dream with the Resistance, and ultimately got the girl. Marsh's happiness was doomed before we met him. But now, he at least has a chance to be content with where he is, something he never really was in Era 1.

I just don't see this story that way, and is why Era 2 left a sour taste in my mouth. I think I just have a darker taste and don't read things that way. And I do wish Brandon leaned more into the gritty side of things. It's like he's right there almost where I want him to be and then he just won't take those next couple of steps. I'm just being nitpicky but I really didn't like Era 2's tone and I think after all the crew went through, just because their lives are better doesn't mean they're good, and I don't want to write off their continuing struggles and just say and then after Era 1 ended they lived happily ever after. To me that's just not very realistic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My headcannon is that Brandon’s script is an in-world movie/play.

Kell goes to every version of TFE that he can find/get to. Marsh claims it’s his brother’s ego; Kell claims it’s because it’s funny seeing how much they get wrong. The truth, which neither will admit, is that Kell misses the crew and this is his way of mourning them and keeping them alive.

Also, at some point someone comes up with the Scadrian version of Christian heavy metal, and calls a band ‘The Survivor’s Crew.’ Kell is their silent backer. And yes, Marsh gets dragged, protesting, to all the shows, which he enjoys far more than he’d ever admit.

This is hilarious

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

My headcannon is that Brandon’s script is an in-world movie/play.

Kell goes to every version of TFE that he can find/get to. Marsh claims it’s his brother’s ego; Kell claims it’s because it’s funny seeing how much they get wrong. The truth, which neither will admit, is that Kell misses the crew and this is his way of mourning them and keeping them alive.

Also, at some point someone comes up with the Scadrian version of Christian heavy metal, and calls a band ‘The Survivor’s Crew.’ Kell is their silent backer. And yes, Marsh gets dragged, protesting, to all the shows, which he enjoys far more than he’d ever admit.

I LIKE this headcanon!

 

52 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

And I do wish Brandon leaned more into the gritty side of things. It's like he's right there almost where I want him to be and then he just won't take those next couple of steps.

It's not in his nature. He's talked about this before. He just doesn't have it in him to go that dark. And that's fine for what he does. 

Quote

MasterDex

I love every book of yours I've read. However, I'm a sucker for grim, dark and/or mature fantasy tales (Malazan, Black Company, The First Law, etc). Have you ever considered going right down that route? Have you any stories that you think would fall into more mature/darker territory? Or do you feel that you have no need to go there? (obviously, Stormlight Archive has some quite dark and mature moments but not quite to the level of the aforementioned series)

If you're answer is No, could you explain why?

Brandon Sanderson

The Threnody novel, if I find time with it, would probably be the closest you'll see from me. I've read and enjoyed each of the authors you listed above, though my own writing tends to not lean that direction. One reason is that I tried (when trying to break in) to make my style more gritty to see, since GRRM-like was what everyone was searching for. It just didn't feel true to my own voice.

 

52 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

but I really didn't like Era 2's tone and I think after all the crew went through, just because their lives are better doesn't mean they're good, and I don't want to write off their continuing struggles and just say and then after Era 1 ended they lived happily ever after.

No one is saying that they didn't have struggles, but why on earth would it be worse that where they came from? Most of the crew went from being underground thieves who put their lives on the line every time they went on a heist to leaders of a new world! No one really stood against them, and they literally knew the deities of the two major religions. What struggles would they have against them?

"You can't rule because you're a Skaa!" Technically, they're half-noble, and there aren't really any nobles to rule in their place.

"You shouldn't rule because you don't have the divine right!" They overthrew the first emperor, were friends and mentors to the second one, were/are friends with The Survivor, and LITERALLY know Harmony. You can't get more divine than that.

"We'll fight you with our Mistings and Mistborn!" Good luck finding any that aren't on our side.

"You don't have any leadership experience!" Categorically untrue.

 

The crew doesn't have to deal with nobles, Inquisitors, other thieving crews (at this moment), or even most of the bureaucracy that they had to before.  (They will have to deal with new bureaucracy however.) How is this not good for them? Again, they get to live their lives unopposed by the troubles of the old world with the people they love, in positions of luxury that would have been impossible in their former lives, knowing that those that didn't make it are taking a well-earned rest. This is literally the best-case scenario - and you're trying to make it somehow sad and gritty? 

Why can't they live happily ever after while helping to build a new world? Why can't their struggles be simply rebuilding a world and the boring minutiae that involves?

52 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

To me that's just not very realistic.

Neither is the ending to Avatar: The Last Airbender, but it still works for the world. It's fantasy, not having the most realistic ending is perfectly fine, so long as it's in-line with the world and the characters. And this one most definitely was. The main story for these characters has been told, and we've seen the most interesting bits. Let them live their lives in peace. Honestly it doesn't feel like you're looking for realism; it feels like you're looking for either unnecessary grit and darkness (which it is by the way), or you're looking for more stories with the characters. One of these I can sympathize with. The other...that's something we can't help with. 

 

Also, do you know what happens when we have these characters who earned their "happily ever after" go on another adventure? We get something like the Sequel Trilogy in Star Wars, where ever single sacrifice and character development is systematically undone. That's something we don't want.

Edited by Use the Falchion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

50 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

I just don't see this story that way, and is why Era 2 left a sour taste in my mouth. I think I just have a darker taste and don't read things that way. And I do wish Brandon leaned more into the gritty side of things. It's like he's right there almost where I want him to be and then he just won't take those next couple of steps. I'm just being nitpicky but I really didn't like Era 2's tone and I think after all the crew went through, just because their lives are better doesn't mean they're good, and I don't want to write off their continuing struggles and just say and then after Era 1 ended they lived happily ever after. To me that's just not very realistic.

Era 2 was kind of an accident. The originally planned era 2 (now era 3) will probably be darker.

 

I didn’t say I thought their lives were perfect. But I do think they enjoyed the new world, each in their own way.

And Marsh would be unhappy even if things were perfect, because that’s just his personality. He’s a pessimist; he’d be miserable if he couldn’t be unhappy. (I know people like this; they don’t make sense if you don’t know them.)

 

I’m glad you like my headcannon!

 

@Use the Falchion But sometimes you get The Clone Wars TV show, Secret History, Mystery of the Emblem or Thracia 776. And the old EU did a better job of keeping the characterizations intact for the original cast. Particularly Zahn’s books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

Also, do you know what happens when we have these characters who earned their "happily ever after" go on another adventure? We get something like the Sequel Trilogy in Star Wars, where ever single sacrifice and character development is systematically undone. That's something we don't want.

I think you're misrepresenting what I'm saying here. The point is not that their lives are worse than before. The point is not to have unneeded grittiness. The point is not that I think Brandon will write the way I want him to. And while I loved Secret History I don't actually want to see more stories from the original crew. I'm saying that 3 of the original crew are dead. Plus Elend. And Sazed now has the responsibility of a god and if you think that makes him happy then I fundamentally disagree with you. Ham I think would be happy. Same for Breeze. Spook I think wouldn't love the responsibility he's been settled with but we can agree to disagree. Marsh has been stated by Brandon is not a happy person so I'll take that one. And Kelsier we really don't know because we haven't actually interacted with him since Secret History. 

My whole point is I personally feel that the Mistborn Era 1 crew sacrificed a lot, and that a lot of them didn't get to see the fruits of their labor and that makes me sad. Lol

Link to comment
Share on other sites

40 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The Clone Wars TV show

Which serves as an interquel going over events that we haven't really seen*, not a sequel after events we've already seen decades later. Secret History, and Thracia 776 all follow that pattern. Heck, Fire Emblem outright avoids this whenever possible. In Genealogy 

Spoiler

90% of the parents die

 In Awakening, the children come back to meet their parents when they're all around the same age; and in Fates, wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey things are involved. Mystery of the Emblem is a weird sequel, and I don't have much experience on that front, but fair point.

What you should have used against me was PS4's God of War ;)  And I'd consider that on the opposite end of the spectrum - a good sequel that breaks down the characters in order to build them back up in a better way.

The Legend of Korra is a moderate example, but it's more like Rebels or Boruto, using characters from the previous shows to ideally supplement the new ones. YMMV on how successful any of these were/are though....maybe Bruce Wayne's role in Batman Beyond is a better example?

My problem is that sequels following the original cast of characters, but now they're older is hard to get right, and more often than not they end up devaluing what came before. One of my favorite manga of all time is having that problem right now. Rurouni Kenshin ended in the early 2000s with the titular character not being able to use his infamous sword style due to the injuries he had accumulated over the years. But it was fine, and he was happy with his new life and had passed on his mantle of protector. But five years later in the sequel series "The Hokkaido Arc," Kenshin is able to use the sword style again with little to no consequence and took back the mantle. The Sequel Trilogy has similar problems, where the sacrifices, lessons learned, and arcs of the characters were stripped away.** (The characterization for the most part was fine IMO though.)  

 

40 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

And the old EU did a better job of keeping the characterizations intact for the original cast

The old EU has the luxury of nostalgia filters. I love it, but there were some really wonky things that happened in it. Chewie being killed by a moon, the Yuuzhon Vong being immune to the Force, Jacen killing Mara Jade, how confusing Ania Solo's heritage actually was/would have been, and Cade Skywalker's constant flips between sides. And those are just the things I remember off the top of my head!  And let's not forget how confusing the canon was! I'm not saying I hate the old EU, because there are a LOT of amazing stories; but time has also filtered out the bad ones, and we can assume that it'll do the same for the new EU.

BTW have you read some of the new canon stuff? Claudia Gray's works have perfect characterization, as does Christie Golden's Dark Disciple

 

24 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

My whole point is I personally feel that the Mistborn Era 1 crew sacrificed a lot, and that a lot of them didn't get to see the fruits of their labor and that makes me sad.

I'm sorry for misrepresenting what you're saying. But frankly, I disagree with you on this point. One of the final pages in HOA is the crew seeing green grass. Green grass and a world without ash. Things they've been fighting for - things their friends have died for! The crew that lived absolutely saw the fruits of their labor, and Brandon shows it. Beldre comments that the flowers are beautiful. Just because we don't see them rebuild their society doesn't mean that they didn't enjoy the fruits of their labor or that they didn't have time off to do what they wanted to do. I honestly don't see how you keep trying to make it sadder than bittersweet, and I think that's where the confusion lies.

About Sazed, I don't think he's "happy" because happiness is a fleeting state. I think at the end of the trilogy, Saze's at peace with his journey for truth, and that was the crux of the issue. The same is true for Marsh. 

To quote Sazed himself, 

Spoiler

Spook, 

I tried to bring them back, but apparently fixing their bodies doesn't return their souls. I will get better at this with time, I expect. However, be assured that I have spoken with our friends, and they are quite happy where they are. They deserve a rest, I think.

 

*Even this isn't fully true, as we had Star Wars: Clone Wars back in the day. 

**I say this as a person who ADORES TFA, loves TLJ but also has some major gripes with it, and hates TROS. 

Edited by Use the Falchion
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I honestly don't see how you keep trying to make it sadder than bittersweet, and I think that's where the confusion lies.

War veterans have trauma for life after going through less than what the Era 1 cast went through. Some of them died and definitively didn't get to fully experience what they worked for. And I say its unrealistic because the others wouldnt just shrug emoji and be like cool! green grass! I'm happy now! It would be traumatic experiences and sad memories they'd have to live with, and yes there are positives but it's also a ton of hard work and while you're doing all that hard work the actual experiences are passing you by. I don't think we're going to agree but I appreciate the discussion. It's always good to get another point of view so thanks for responding to my post! :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...