Invested Entity Classification [ROW Ch 15/general cosmere]

[Kittalia]

This week's chapter lets us know that Vasher's moved from classifying BioChromatic Entities into classifying Invested Entities, with a slightly different system. What are your guesses for the new system? 

BioChromatic Entities: 

Type 1-- Returned (Human soul (or copy of soul) stapled back to body with investiture)

Type 2-- Lifeless (Human/Animal body reanimated with investiture, but no soul)

Type 3-- Awakened organics (ordinary awakening)

Type 4--Awakened inorganics (nightblood)

 

Invested Entities:

Type 1--Sentient Investiture (Spren, maybe seons, anything else?)

Type 2--Cognitive shadow (including returned, heralds, fused)

Type 3?--Possibly lifeless, possibly bloodsealers' creations?

Type 4?--Possibly Awakened objects? Maybe soul-stamped materials?

Type 5??--nightblood?

 

My best guess is that he just shifted his types down a number to include spren, but I've seen some people suggest that what used to be Type 1&2 are now all Type 2. I'm not sure if the division between type 3/4/5 have any application outside of Awakening either. I wonder if there's a difference in soul stamping between organic and inorganic materials? We see Shai working with clay, stone, glass, wood, and other materials. Are bloodsealers' pets in the same category as lifeless? 

 

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, Kittalia said:

This week's chapter lets us know that Vasher's moved from classifying BioChromatic Entities into classifying Invested Entities, with a slightly different system. What are your guesses for the new system? 

BioChromatic Entities: 

Type 1-- Returned (Human soul (or copy of soul) stapled back to body with investiture)

Type 2-- Lifeless (Human/Animal body reanimated with investiture, but no soul)

Type 3-- Awakened organics (ordinary awakening)

Type 4--Awakened inorganics (nightblood)

 

Invested Entities:

Type 1--Sentient Investiture (Spren, maybe seons, anything else?)

Type 2--Cognitive shadow (including returned, heralds, fused)

Here may be a category for those without bodies

8 minutes ago, Kittalia said:

Type 3?--Possibly lifeless, possibly bloodsealers' creations?

Type 4?--Possibly Awakened objects? Maybe soul-stamped materials?

Type 5??--nightblood?

The old numbers look like how hard they are to make with Awakening. The new numbers are not.

8 minutes ago, Kittalia said:

 

My best guess is that he just shifted his types down a number to include spren, but I've seen some people suggest that what used to be Type 1&2 are now all Type 2. I'm not sure if the division between type 3/4/5 have any application outside of Awakening either.

The Lifeless have some smartness and memories left.

The new scale looks like it is based on how sentient the Investiture is. So:

1. Sentient Investiture not based on corporal patterns
2. Cognitive Shadows
3. Sentient Awakened objects
4. Awakened objects with rudiments of a mind: Lifeless
5. Awakened objects
6. Invested objects without agency

 

[Kittalia]

26 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

1. Sentient Investiture not based on corporal patterns
2. Cognitive Shadows
3. Sentient Awakened objects
4. Awakened objects with rudiments of a mind: Lifeless
5. Awakened objects
6. Invested objects without agency

 

This is a good possibility; are there any hints of the new system other than in this chapter, or are you just speculating? I also noticed that "person who holds a little bit of investiture" (ie someone with a few breaths, or stormlight) doesn't appear to count as an invested entity as far as I can tell. I wonder if Elantrians are cognitive shadows or something else?

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Here may be a category for those without bodies

The old numbers look like how hard they are to make with Awakening. The new numbers are not.

The Lifeless have some smartness and memories left.

The new scale looks like it is based on how sentient the Investiture is. So:

1. Sentient Investiture not based on corporal patterns
2. Cognitive Shadows
3. Sentient Awakened objects
4. Awakened objects with rudiments of a mind: Lifeless
5. Awakened objects
6. Invested objects without agency

 

I like and agree, (though I hate having a #6 for purely thematic reasons).  I think #4 should be something more along the lines of "ReAwakened Deceased Organism", given that the main real difference between that and #5 is the Raw Material Used.  A complicated enough Command (and perhaps more Breaths) could likely approximate a Lifeless level of sapience, but if you do the exact same thing it with a realistic mannequin it would fall into either #3 or #5.  The distinguishing characteristic of a #4-Lifeless is that they start with living remains (human, animal, etc).   

[Gilphon]

My thought was that he no longer draws a hard distinction between Returned and Lifeless- we know from WoBs that Lifeless are more aware than they believe. They're both Cognitive Shadows stapled to a body, Lifeless just have less agency (and perhaps that's solely a function of how Invested they are; perhaps a Lifeless would become something extremely similar to a Returned if given enough Breath). So both are Type 2 is his new classification. Indeed, I suspect that realizing that was the reason he was forced to acknowledge that his old classification was wrong. 

He might be drawing the distinction between Cognitive Shadows with and without bodies- certainly the definition of a Type 2 he gave in this chapter would imply that- but the Fused show us that that's not a hard distinction either, so I doubt it.

I would suspect that his new Type 3 is beings that didn't arise naturally and aren't based on a dead being; things that were artificially created. So Awakened Objects, spren that were directly created by a Shard, and stuff like that. I don't know if he needs any other Types at all after that; Nightblood would just the Returned to the Awakened Objects' Lifeless; the distinction based purely on amount of Investiture, rather than any actual fundamental difference. 

But, y'know, it's all ultimately just the way Vasher has decided to refer to things in his head, not any kind of fundamental truth.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Gilphon

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Kittalia said:

This is a good possibility; are there any hints of the new system other than in this chapter,

No.

1 hour ago, Kittalia said:

or are you just speculating? I also noticed that "person who holds a little bit of investiture" (ie someone with a few breaths, or stormlight) doesn't appear to count as an invested entity as far as I can tell.

You are right. Yet their charge is potentially highly variable.

1 hour ago, Kittalia said:

I wonder if Elantrians are cognitive shadows or something else?

Elantrians are not dead. They are fertile.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Elantrians are not dead. They are fertile.

CS can be fertile.  Hoid for example.  Also the returned under the right circumstances.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

My thought was that he no longer draws a hard distinction between Returned and Lifeless- we know from WoBs that Lifeless are more aware than they believe. They're both Cognitive Shadows stapled to a body, Lifeless just have less agency (and perhaps that's solely a function of how Invested they are; perhaps a Lifeless would become something extremely similar to a Returned if given enough Breath). So both are Type 2 is his new classification. Indeed, I suspect that realizing that was the reason he was forced to acknowledge that his old classification was wrong. 

Can't you make Lifeless out of any body, no matter how old it is? It's never mentioned that you have to make someone into a lifeless as soon as they die.

[FatherV]

“...You see, the power wants to be alive.” He gestured with his chin toward Syl, flying down beneath them as a ribbon of light. “She’s what I now call a Type One Invested entity. I decided that had to be the proper way to refer to them. Power that came alive on its own.”

“You can see her!” Kaladin said.

“See? No. Sense?” Zahel shrugged. “Cut off a bit of divinity and leave it alone. Eventually it comes alive. And if you let a man die with too Invested a soul—or Invest him right as he’s dying—he’ll leave behind a shadow you can nail back onto a body. His own, if you’re feeling charitable. Once done, you have this.” Zahel waved to himself. “Type Two Invested entity. Dead man walking.”

Tough to decide if Shards and their Vessels fit into these categories or are outside them. Let’s assume that Adonalsium was alive and the Vessel of his (*grammatical attribution only) own power. I use these terms for convenience since every Shard of Adonalsium has the potential for a Vessel and indeed had at least 1 near the time of the Shattering. Certainly the principle of “portions of divinity seek life (absent outside influence)” stands. That’s true of Shards & Splinters (though the mechanism behind formation of sentience is not yet properly understood). Even if a Vessel of a Shard is destroyed it lives on, though how a Shard lives on when only the portions of divinity known as Splinters are the only remnant is difficult to grasp. At times the process is akin to splitting a worm, though since Shards can be recombined at least temporarily (Harmony. We really don’t know if they are merely held together heterogeneously by the glue of a Vessel or are actually homogeneously recombined, and can’t know until the Vessel is destroyed), the biological analogy limps.

For myself, assuming Vasher’s explanation is accurate, I am prepared to say that Adonalsium was both alive & sentient, not merely a force (though given the magnitude of its abilities it would certainly seem like a force). Each portion of Adonalsium seeks life, and the more that portion contains its essence, the more self-determinative that portion is would suggest it. I also would say this would imply that you could not recreate Adonalsium as it was because even assuming that the recombination of Shards achieved in Harmony is homogeneous, and the Vessel of Adonalsium II voluntarily gave up being a Vessel (or did not survive the ordeal as the words of Brandon suggest) the resulting new life would be different than the one that existed before. This is not a full blown new theory of Adonalsium, merely spinning out the conclusions *if* Vasher’s theory is accurate.

Edited October 14, 2020 by FatherV
Completeness

[FatherV]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

CS can be fertile.  Hoid for example.  Also the returned under the right circumstances.

It is not at all a given that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow. In fact, I think there are quite a few indications that he is not.

[StormFather!]

Where would you put dead shardblades and plate on the list?

Invested Entities:

Type 1--Sentient Investiture (Spren, maybe seons, anything else?)

Type 2--Cognitive shadow (including returned, heralds, fused)

Type 3?--Possibly lifeless, possibly bloodsealers' creations?

Type 4?--Possibly Awakened objects? Maybe soul-stamped materials?

Type 5??--nightblood?

[FatherV]

I wouldn’t put shardplate anywhere yet, since we have never seen them come into being. Too much is unknown about it.

A blade is a Spren.

Also, the Lifeless are exactly the sort of thing as Vasher, in his own view. “Dead man walking.” If charitable you staple it to the original body (Returned), if not, another (Lifeless). Vasher might have seen other Shardworlds or know of their existence so he doesn’t limit it to Lifeless or even mention them. A Shard creating a shadow probably has access to better “programming” than a shadow creating shadows.

Edited October 13, 2020 by FatherV
Increased content.

[FatherV]

 

6 hours ago, Kittalia said:

This week's chapter lets us know that Vasher's moved from classifying BioChromatic Entities into classifying Invested Entities, with a slightly different system. What are your guesses for the new system? 

BioChromatic Entities: 

Type 1-- Returned (Human soul (or copy of soul) stapled back to body with investiture)

Type 2-- Lifeless (Human/Animal body reanimated with investiture, but no soul)

Type 3-- Awakened organics (ordinary awakening)

Type 4--Awakened inorganics (nightblood)

 

Invested Entities:

Type 1--Sentient Investiture (Spren, maybe seons, anything else?)

Type 2--Cognitive shadow (including returned, heralds, fused)

Type 3?--Possibly lifeless, possibly bloodsealers' creations?

Type 4?--Possibly Awakened objects? Maybe soul-stamped materials?

Type 5??--nightblood?

 

My best guess is that he just shifted his types down a number to include spren, but I've seen some people suggest that what used to be Type 1&2 are now all Type 2. I'm not sure if the division between type 3/4/5 have any application outside of Awakening either. I wonder if there's a difference in soul stamping between organic and inorganic materials? We see Shai working with clay, stone, glass, wood, and other materials. Are bloodsealers' pets in the same category as lifeless? 

 

I think Type 1 in his schema is “Splinters.”  Not sure if all are sentient, merely alive given enough time & lack of interference. Idiscuss above whether the same would also hold for Shards, but it is not at all clear that Vasher intends to include them.

[Crylorenzo]

Another thought is where do deadeyes fit into this list.

[Karger]

49 minutes ago, FatherV said:

It is not at all a given that Hoid is a Cognitive Shadow. In fact, I think there are quite a few indications that he is not.

My point stands.  CS can if they posses a physical body produce children.

[Crylorenzo]

Another thought as I've been pondering classifications - [The Emperor's Soul Spoiler]

Spoiler

would Emperor Ashravan from The Emperor's Soul be considered a Type II Entity by the end of the book?

Is there any classification for people without a soul or investiture? A Type 0 if you will - a good shell for power?

[StormFather!]

Like drabs?

[FatherV]

3 hours ago, Crylorenzo said:

Another thought is where do deadeyes fit into this list.

Being handicapped doesn’t change the kind of thing you are, just impairs functions. Spren are splinters (type 1 for Vasher).

[LewsTherinTelescope]

My purely speculative classification with no evidence besides my guess (there being 4 like the old system is a coincidence, not a requirement I used.):

Type I:    Investiture that has gained its own sentience.
Type II:   Investiture that has gained an existing sentience.
Type III:  Investiture that has gained no sentience.
Type IV:  Investiture that has gained an artificial sentience.

(This is ordered by how "artificial" each type of object is, just like I believe the original classification system was.)

Do note that this classification system is merely what I think Vasher would come up with, not the system I believe would be most accurate. I would, for example, likely categorize Type II and Type IV Entities as subcategories of the same thing, rather than their own category. (Well, really, I'd say they're all subcategories of one thing, but I'm assuming we're splitting it somewhere).

I don't think the new system will distinguish between sentience and sapience, though perhaps all types besides Type III may have subclassifications by sentience/sapience level.

Where I think some beings would fall that have been discussed above:

• Vessels: Type II Entity. It's another mind coming in and taking over Investiture.
• The Dor: Type I Entity. It's not sapient, but is "proto-aware", and no longer has a Vessel, meaning it is likely its own sentience.
• Nightblood: Type IV. Seems pretty clear.
• New Ashravan: Debatable between Type IV and living being (which you could call Type V, though I'm not certain whether Invested Entities is counting them or not). I would say the latter, just heavily modified. As far as I know, he was merely brain-dead, not dead-dead, but I am uncertain.
• Deadeyes: Type I. They're wounded Spiritually, but are still the same type of beings.

[Realmatic Shadow]

On 14/10/2020 at 5:27 AM, FatherV said:

We really don’t know if they are merely held together heterogeneously by the glue of a Vessel or are actually homogeneously recombined, and can’t know until the Vessel is destroyed

We have WOB that, if Sazed was to be killed, Harmony would be dropped as one singular Shard, not the two distinct Shards of Preservation and Ruin.

Quote

Thanatos17901

If Sazed were to die, would he drop the Shards Ruin and Preservation, or would he drop the Shard Harmony?

Brandon Sanderson

Excellent question. The shards are now intermingled, and would take effort to split apart. He would drop Harmony. (This is what Odium feared would happen, by the way.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 23, 2013)

 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

8 hours ago, Realmatic Shadow said:

We have WOB that, if Sazed was to be killed, Harmony would be dropped as one singular Shard, not the two distinct Shards of Preservation and Ruin.

 

We also know, however, that he has two conflicting Intents close to essentially ripping him apart, so the Shards themselves appear to not be merged, just sort of tied together.

[Subvisual Haze]

The original Biochromatic type classification system was divided based on (perceived) sentience.   Specifically Type 1 Returned were differentiated from Type 2 Lifeless based on the belief that Returned were "sentient", but Lifeless were "mindless".  We know from several WOBs that this isn't quite the case though, Lifeless do possess a level of sentience (I think Brandon even planned/plans to write a POV from a Lifeless' perspective in the Warbreaker sequel).  

Taking this into account (as well as Vasher's current even more bitter and unhelpful than usual personality) and I think Vasher was dramatically forced to confront the fact that Lifeless are not mindless.  There's something like a soul animating them, however they can take no independent action without directions from their awakener.  It sounds like a nightmare existence, being trapped in your own body with no control.  And Vasher personally created armies of the things.

e: I think this line reinforces my thought:

Quote

“Is there a…way to kill something like you? Permanently?”

“Lots of ways. For the weaker ones, just kill the body again, make sure no one Invests the soul with more strength, and they’ll slip away in a few minutes. For stronger ones… well, you might be able to starve them. A lot of Type Twos feed on power. Keeps them going.

What would be a weaker form of a Returned?  A Lifeless.  Both are now grouped together as Type 2s

Edited October 19, 2020 by Subvisual Haze

[Lemiltock]

On 15/10/2020 at 7:03 AM, beewall said:

My purely speculative classification with no evidence besides my guess (there being 4 like the old system is a coincidence, not a requirement I used.):

Type I:    Investiture that has gained its own sentience.
Type II:   Investiture that has gained an existing sentience.
Type III:  Investiture that has gained no sentience.
Type IV:  Investiture that has gained an artificial sentience.

(This is ordered by how "artificial" each type of object is, just like I believe the original classification system was.)

Do note that this classification system is merely what I think Vasher would come up with, not the system I believe would be most accurate. I would, for example, likely categorize Type II and Type IV Entities as subcategories of the same thing, rather than their own category.

I like this, but differ in that type 4 should be type 1. Afterall what does it matter where the sapience comes from. Nightblood achieved sapience form being i vested, not from their command. On this the command is likely Nightbloods intent.

 

I do think Vasher may not uet be at this conclusing given A) he helpped create Nightblood and so may down play this and he may not understand the workings that made Nightblood like we do

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

I like this, but differ in that type 4 should be type 1. Afterall what does it matter where the sapience comes from. Nightblood achieved sapience form being i vested, not from their command. On this the command is likely Nightbloods intent.

I can see the argument for that. I'm not sure on the exact details, but currently I expect the imprinting of the Intent to also grant sapience to the Investiture, such as by creating a basic mind around the Intent, and then attaching this mind to the Breaths or to the Invested Object. Under that definition, I think it would fit more under Type II (though the real answer is just "these are somewhat arbitrary, so we can call it a Type IV and be done" lol).