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RoW Chapter 15 Discussion

244 posts in this topic

3 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Why would he? This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards, he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen).

He's not Gandalf, fighting for the good guys. He's more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino: old, retired, surly, with a strong desire to be left alone, but a heart of gold behind the gruff exterior. It's only once you mess with him personally that he'll unleash his full capabilities. In Gran Torino Eastwood didn't go snitching to the police, and I doubt Vasher is willing to become entangled by aligning himself with Dalinar so publicly.

I agree with this assessment and honestly I think this is setting kaladin up as a potential world hopper just like shallan, In fact thinking about it was that could ultimately be the end result of kaladins character arc.

By potentially accepting that he has done what he can for the people of roshar and leaving to go off and help others in other places, sounds kinda fantastical since I’m sure he is gonna die but still.

I’m very intrigued about the reasons kaladin is becoming cosmere aware

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29 minutes ago, Rainier said:

[Re: should we expect the Radiant spren all to bond listeners in the overall story arc:] There's that Whig History again. I disagree, I think this is a story about superheroes who have to overcome personal flaws in order to unlock their superpowers, in order to stave off the apocalypse and defeat the evil god behind it. 

Again, why is it important? Who is it important to?  Is it important to you? To Tor? To Brandon? It's certainly not important to the characters themselves, since the thing that's actually important is, once again, surviving the apocalypse and defeating the evil god behind it. Kaladin seems to want reconciliation, but Jasnah is fine with genocide, and Venli wants independence, not a war and certainly not allies in a war. The spren themselves are divided, with some bonding humans, others refusing, and still others actively planning revenge. There's no reason why this should end in racial equality any more than it should end in one side winning or both sides being destroyed.

... I'm not against racial equality, I'm against poorly disguised message fiction. I hope Brandon isn't writing that story, but it amazes me how strong the desire is for such content. 

 

[Re: Zahel aligning with Team Dalinar:] This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards, he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen).

He's not Gandalf, fighting for the good guys. He's more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino: old, retired, surly, with a strong desire to be left alone, but a heart of gold behind the gruff exterior. It's only once you mess with him personally that he'll unleash his full capabilities. In Gran Torino Eastwood didn't go snitching to the police, and I doubt Vasher is willing to become entangled by aligning himself with Dalinar so publicly.

Regarding the first part: I get where you're coming from, but I also think there is far more epic a feeling to a good story beyond a video game like "unlock powers, level up to max, defeat boss baddie, game over and get some more Cheetos" progression; if there is a theme of "...and the X we were doing all along was never the real deal!"

Because a good story is always really about the internal story of the characters, not just what they do, or become able to do.

In particular, I think you are really, REALLY stretching it to call Stormlight Archive "message fiction"... Especially an accusation triggered by a scene where Rlain, after many, many months of seeing every other Bridge Four member (except Hobbid?) first draw Stormlight as a squire, then gain a Nahel bond of their own, and constantly being initially or unconsciously interacted with as either an enemy (warform) or a slave - is turned off by the idea that he'd "gain" an honorspren bond because Kaladin forced an honorspren to do it.

I would have thought much LESS of Rlain had he reacted, "Really? I'm gonna get an honorspren and a Nahel bond and powers? Say no more! Best present ever!"

As for "I hope Brandon isn't writing that story..." What "story" is it you hope he's not writing? That the humans under Team Dalinar will end up finding allies among the listeners (Venli) and possibly Fused (Leshwi) who will decide that the future of Roshar is not based on a war of extinction but coexistence?

Do you read much simpler and darker fantasy than I do? Because a fantasy series that presented a terrible A vs. B war spanning eons, then presented an out for that war by setting up two groups of people (Kaladin, Rlain, Lewshi, Venli, etc.) who are starting to think "man this eternal war sucks, isn't there another way?" and then the ending was "nah, let's just have this side we POV'ed first, and are human instead of non-human, just power up and crush the other side"...

...Over TEN volumes each of which are a trilogy unto themselves, and will tie into a mega-storyline across an epic Cosmere backdrop...

That would SUCK.and would be my choice of describing as the Story I Hope He's Not Writing.

Now, whether or not that is where SA is actually going to end up, I will not say is for certain. I will agree it's a bit "obvious" as a direction where it could end up. I fully expect Brandon to surprise me. If SA4 ends with Leshwi renouncing Odium and teaming up with Dalinar or something in an unbelievable fashion that reads like Kumbaya Fanfic, I'd be quite upset. But you seem to assume any storyline trending in that direction is a Kumbaya Fanfic, which just has me shaking my head.

Regarding the second part, about Zahel: Yeah, I was going to post something similar about how he's an ardent exactly because he's there to stay in the background. Not to "get involved". So questions like "why hasn't he told Dalinar or Navani or Jasnah about that Nightblood sword that Szeth is carrying and what it can do to the Fused", well, an obvious answer is, why should he?

For one, just leaking information about Nightblood being able to do what it can do at all, and that he knows about how/why it exists, would immediately put pressure on Powers That Be on both sides to try to force him to make more. Exactly what he doesn't want. He'd rather nobody know about Nightblood's Special Nature at all.

Edited by robardin
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I feel like those who haven't read Warbreaker probably think there's more to Vasher's dialogue here than there actually is.  There's a very "if you read Warbreaker and you'll better understand this scene" vibe, but having read Warbreaker there's not very much actually being communicated here.

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1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

First she needs to figure out his Smart - Sociopathic, Dumb - Empathetic deal. Then if she wanted to be the smart one she'd have to take a photo memory of the complicated math questions, have people work out the answers, memorize those and use them. 

Or just use Pattern for most of them.

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30 minutes ago, robardin said:

In particular, I think you are really, REALLY stretching it to call Stormlight Archive "message fiction".

I am not calling Stormlight message fiction. It's Epic Fantasy, and I'd like it to stay that way. I'm afraid of it becoming message fiction, and I disapprove of what I see as hopes that it becomes message fiction.

30 minutes ago, robardin said:

Because a good story is always really about the internal story of the characters, not just what they do, or become able to do.

30 minutes ago, robardin said:

As for "I hope Brandon isn't writing that story..." What "story" is it you hope he's not writing? That the humans under Team Dalinar will end up finding allies among the listeners (Venli) and possibly Fused (Leshwi) who will decide that the future of Roshar is not based on a war of extinction but coexistence?

Yes, a good story succeeds or fails on its characters. What's the point? Yes. If this is it, I'll be disappointed. I want a gnarl, something that makes it distinct from Captain Planet or a Very Special Episode in the Cosmere. Someone switching sides and betraying their former ally for a better deal is a tale as told as time. Everyone deciding that they're not so different and that diversity is their real strength is 2020 message fiction.

30 minutes ago, robardin said:

I would have thought much LESS of Rlain had he reacted, "Really? I'm gonna get an honorspren and a Nahel bond and powers? Say no more! Best present ever!"

I have no problem with Vercingetorix saying Death or Free Gaul, what I have a problem with is the Romans saying, OK no problem we're all cool now. No! They're sworn enemies, and Vercingetorix spent the last six years of his life imprisoned just so he could be paraded through Rome at Caesar's Triumph, after which he was unceremoniously strangled to death. That's the kind of ruthlessness I expect to see between these people, because that's the kind of world they live in, and just as it would be a betrayal to show Kaladin unaffected by the trauma he's suffered, it would be a betrayal to show Roshar as a happy multicultural multiracial one-world nation given its history. 

I'm not interested in seeing Rlain get an Honorspren because that's Equality. If that's the story we get, blech, no thanks. What I'm interested in is revealing the reason for the split between the Singers and Honor. I'm interested in Humans and Singers switching gods, and the reasons why that happened. Good reasons, one would hope.

Edited by Rainier
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9 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm not interested in seeing Rlain get an Honorspren because that's Equality. If that's the story we get, blech, no thanks. What I'm interested in is revealing the reason for the split between the Singers and Honor. I'm interested in Humans and Singers switching gods, and the reasons why that happened. Good reasons, one would hope.

I'm not sure why you equate a storyline where Rlain gets an honorspren - which it seems he certainly would like to have, and it would seem like he certainly deserves, except for the honorspren objecting to him being "of the enemy" because of his being a listener - is "that's Equality with a captial E and therefore blech, 2020 message fiction".

But you're entitled to whatever goes on in your own head. I think your comments are saying more about yourself than anything about Brandon's writing direction.

So, there is a reason the listeners and singers had never bonded spren with Nahel bonds before. We don't know what that is.

If it turns out it was purely racial prejudice and now, after thousands upon thousands of years, it was all really just a misunderstanding  that will now be easily overcome simply by having Radiant spren - who are inflexible sentient concepts, at core, not living creatures with malleable minds, until they form a bond to a living person - suddenly deciding hey, let's bond some singers/listeners after all, and now all the fighting will stop! - I would agree that is an unsatisfactory storyline. Completely agree.

But there being a deeper secret as to why Rlain is shut out from bonding, yet Venli was not, that can be discussed and shown as to Why It's Different This Time (for that matter, one can boil it down to the question of, "not why did, but why could Timbre bond with Venli when this had never happened before?") , that I think is being set up.

And yes. Sorry. I am totally rooting for Rlain to get a spren bond, honorspren or otherwise, and would greatly enjoy seeing an honorspren like Yunfah being impressed by the honor on display by Rlain in telling him he doesn't want Yunfah to bond him under such a pretense of "enforced diversity."

If you want to get all 2020 about it, Rlain doesn't want to be viewed as an Affirmative Action Token, he wants to be bonded on his own merit. You can't say that's not admirable. And having read what you have of Rlain and how he's acted after what he's put up with from humans, you can't say he isn't worthy of an honorspren.

Edited by robardin
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On the reddit thread, Brandon just said we can assume Zahel whispered the commands. So he's probably not 10th heightening.

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2 hours ago, Rainier said:

That's the kind of ruthlessness I expect to see between these people, because that's the kind of world they live in, and just as it would be a betrayal to show Kaladin unaffected by the trauma he's suffered, it would be a betrayal to show Roshar as a happy multicultural multiracial one-world nation given its history. 

I think that comment says it all, and I think it higlights the biggest reason we seem to be disagreeing.  Nobody is saying that Roshar will become a "happy multicultural multiracial one-world nation" over the course of this series.  What we are dealing with right now is extremely small scale.  Having Rlain become a Windrunner or having Kaladin/Rlain/Leshwi learn to respect each other is a realistic approach to breaking down past prejudices.  It is far from preachy if Sanderson writes some relationships between singer and human as more dimensional than "human’s bad, singers good" or vise versa.  It would be annoying if this story ended with all the main characters defeating Odium with the power of friendship, but the Stormlight Archive is far from that point.

There are a lot of reasons given in this story's universe why two sides would want to seek reconciliation that doesn't involve modern-day politics.  Mainly, the two sides might want to stop killing each other.   It is not message fiction to have characters seek alternative solutions to a several millennia-long conflict. 

Sanderson has presented a world where rifts between groups of people are everywhere.  It makes sense if the characters seek to overcome such obstacles without resorting to the sword.  I wonder if you also think that it is message fiction when, in Oathbringer, Dalinar chose to bring nations together through diplomacy rather than by attempting to conquer half of the world.  If seeking peace makes sense in-universe, then the story is not automatically delegitimized if the characters don't resort to simply killing each other. 

Edited by SomeRandomPeasant
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Ok. Haven’t caught up with the topic. But definitely can see Rlain bonding the Nightwatcher after this chapter. He seems very intune with the planet and cultivating and also seems very keen on unity between Humans and Parsh and tends to get annoyed when people bring up topics that threaten that unity. 

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3 hours ago, Rainier said:

Why would he? This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards, he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen).

He's not Gandalf, fighting for the good guys. He's more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino: old, retired, surly, with a strong desire to be left alone, but a heart of gold behind the gruff exterior. It's only once you mess with him personally that he'll unleash his full capabilities. In Gran Torino Eastwood didn't go snitching to the police, and I doubt Vasher is willing to become entangled by aligning himself with Dalinar so publicly.

Because otherwise the world he is currently in will crumble? I suppose you have read Warbreaker, if so you must be aware unless something really bad have happened from Warbreaker to Stormlight 1 to Vasher completely change his philosophy He would never see a world falling apart and don't move a finger to even give information to humans , its a 100% out of character decision for him 

At first I thought he was hiding because he had some kind of a ploy rolling and he needed secrecy. This chapter shows it's quite not the case he just didn't bother to tell anybody which is... odd to say the least

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5 hours ago, robardin said:

In-world, if a knowledgeable off-worlder like Zahel is going to do off-world magic stuff (Awakening) and drop terms and information about the wider Cosmere and the nature of Nalthis and the Returned, of course Kaladin would not understand most of it. By definition, neither would a reader who had not read Warbreaker. And that.. Is fine.

Debatable. I guess we need a non-Warbreaker reader and ask them what they think

As a non-Warbreaker reader, I would probably didn't understand anything (Type 1 invested, what?)

5 hours ago, robardin said:

Yes it means that for those readers who HAVE read Warbreaker, and more fully grok the hints being dropped (as well as the hints as to what is implied as happened after the events of Warbreaker), we get both an "easter egg" type of experience of recognition ("aha! He is a Returned and a high Heightening and has life sense / superhuman speed / he's Awakening the scarves!") as well as an even deeper sense of mystery than simply being about as confused as Kaladin ("...He classifies himself as a Lifeless now, after what he learned? What is that and when did he learn it?")

And that... Is also fine.

 

Even more debatable. What happened this chapter was not a easter egg, it was a 1 meter cock crowing scandalously to get attention.  As a Warbreaker reader, I didn't get any satisfaction whatsover for making any connection between the 2 books. didn't get any "aha" moment as the text was so self explanatory that I find impossible to someone who have read Warbreaker to don't get every info, It just was not fun nor exciting read which is really strange because I generally enjoy Sanderson explanation texts

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7 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

First major complaint, using the largest known gems (the gemhearts from Chasmfiends) as grow lamps to produce small rockbuds that have a small amount of grain is just silly. The whole setup with the Ardent beating a drum and singing to a Rythym, like he's at a hippy drum circle, in order to just barely grow crops is a ludricous setup. And the fact that the largest gems they have barely provide enough investiture and crack in the process makes this process even sillier. They can't scale this methodology up (thry're already using the largest gems) and they are inefficiently and destructively consuming  a scarce resource that would be better used to soulcast grain directly. 

My understanding is that the whole thing is an experiment. Something that could be potentially helpful. Also, obviously it can be scaled up as it's the method the Listeners used to continue to fight the Alethi. The way to scale it up and/or increase its effectiveness seems to revolve around getting to those pure tones of Roshar. 

Frankly, anything that could be used to circumvent soulcasters with their scarcity and dreadful side effects would be worth pursuing. What even happens to people using soulcasters for grain/meat? Do they become grain/meat?

5 hours ago, robardin said:

As for him suddenly expounding on Things Cosmere, specifically in the context of Invested Entities and Cognitive Shadows and spren and stapling shadows of souls to a become spren-like "dead man walking", remember, he's OLD and KNOWS A LOT and is, at heart, an academic. So when Kaladin innocently asked him "Are you like Wit?", basically meaning "a mysterious guy who knows a lot of secrets", that kind of triggered him to do a half-lecture, half "I've wanted to say this out loud to SOMEBODY for so long even if they don't know what I'm saying" type of speech.

"Me? Like Wit? ME? You don't even know who or what Wit, or Hoid, is, puppy! Or me, for that matter! Let me tell you just how like, and yet very unlike Wit, I am! See, what I am, is..."

Think about it. He's learned and figured out all this stuff about the True Nature of Returned, spren, Fused/Heralds, etc., all since the end of the events of Warbreaker, and could well have had that all in his head only this whole time, without even Vivenna to tell it to. If you're geeky in the right way, that is like a pressure cooker.

I know I personally am prone to that kind of "more than you asked for" info rant, so I can totally see that kind of reaction from Vasher/Zahel!

Come to think of it, the same thing happened when Vivenna innocently asked him about Awakening for the first time. She got a 300 level lecture.

I'm the same way. Totally seemed in character to me.

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5 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

Frankly, anything that could be used to circumvent soulcasters with their scarcity and dreadful side effects would be worth pursuing. What even happens to people using soulcasters for grain/meat? Do they become grain/meat?

Kind of.  We saw a woman who had vine hands in OB.  It was pretty gross.

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2 hours ago, robardin said:

If you want to get all 2020 about it, Rlain doesn't want to be viewed as an Affirmative Action Token, he wants to be bonded on his own merit. You can't say that's not admirable. And having read what you have of Rlain and how he's acted after what he's put up with from humans, you can't say he isn't worthy of an honorspren.

30 minutes ago, Xerun said:

But definitely can see Rlain bonding the Nightwatcher after this chapter.

You're not the first to suggest Rlain as Bondsmith, but I think you are the first in this chapter discussion.

Quote

There’s a wedge between me and the Stormfather, I think. Strange. I expected prejudice from humans, but not from him… Anyway, I will wait for a spren who will bond me for who I am—and the honor I represent.”

What does a wedge do? Divide. What do we like? Unite!

Whoever is going to bond the Nightwatcher is going to be someone dedicated to Uniting someone or something. For Dalinar it was first Alethkar, then it grew from there. For Rlain, it could very easily be that by trying to find Unity with humans he's living the oath before it's ever sworn. It could be progress to unity between Honor itself and the Singers, exploring the original schism and flip of the gods that came after. A new description of the Oathpact: a deal between humanity and Honor requiring the latter to abandon the Singers. Maybe that's what is required of him to swear his third oath, and we get it in later books.

That would leave Navani as the one to revive the Sibling and then coax it back into its fabrial (Urithiru) by bringing Unity between humans and spren, and we'll have three Bondsmiths again by the end of book 4. I'm still partial to her as a Truthwatcher, but if she thinks Urithiru is a fabrial, then she knows it needs a spren. Her attempt to bond the spren and convince it to willingly confine itself inside a fabrial is her arc, and she becomes disconcerted by the relative maltreatment of the spren in fabrials. Thus can character serve story in a satisfying way.

1 minute ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

I suppose you have read Warbreaker, if so you must be aware unless something really bad have happened from Warbreaker to Stormlight 1 to Vasher completely change his philosophy

Why would you be so cruel as to taunt me with the yet-unwritten sequel, Nightblood, although personally I'm hoping Brandon has the guts to name it Type Four Invested Entity, instead.

In all seriousness, yes, I've read it, and yes, I'm expecting something really bad to happen to Vasher that completely changes his philosophy. Something that, as he says to Kaladin in this chapter, causes him to truly hate the fight itself. That sounds exactly like the kind of sequel Warbreaker deserves. Maybe seeing his best and brightest protege follow in his footsteps and recreate his greatest folly and shame by creating a highly invested weapon would do the trick. Or seeing his old friend Yesteel do the same, and come for him.

Quote

“You love it because it’s part of you. It’s your mistress, your passion, your lifeblood. You’d find the daily training unsatisfying. You’d thirst for something more. You’d eventually turn and leave, and that would put you in a worse position than if you’d never started.”

Vasher is talking about himself, here, and speaking from experience. He's retired before, but found it unsatisfying and eventually left. This put him in a worse position than if he'd never tried in the first place. This time it has stuck for a while, and he's got a cushy spot

Maybe he's about to be drawn back in, but that is what remains to be seen. If it does happen, I don't expect it until the back 5, which should be after Nightblood, sequel to Warbreaker, is published.

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13 hours ago, the_archduke said:

Is it just me or is rlain being set up to be a different order than wind runner?  Willshaper when he meets back up with venli?

Or may be a bondsmith after all

Kaladin said that may be we can get the fused to abandon odium, convince them to give up war and live with them sharing this world! 
Very idealistic but wonder which fused lady gave kaladin the idea!! ;)
 

Loved this chapter ! We finally got Zahel and any mention of wit is fun. I think I want a dialogue between wit and zahel!! It would be super fun. 
 

And Kal asks zahel “how he gave up the sword” so they know.... interesting. 
 

And if Shallan and adolin goto honorspren city, do you think they will find azure there? May be they will bring her back!

How will they come back? I guess Dalinar can help!

Edited by The Traveller
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40 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

Kaladin said that may be we can get the fused to abandon odium, convince them to give up war and live with them sharing this world! 

Very idealistic but wonder which fused lady gave kaladin the idea!! ;)

And Kal asks zahel “how he gave up the sword” so they know.... interesting. 
 

Ooooooo that would be a cool thing. Leshwi also seems to be ready to betray Odium if she gets to know he intends to destroy Roshar to win. She , kal and Venli could work some alliance out . 

I don't think kal knows about Nightblood and Zahel. More probably he meant it like ' how did u transition to being an ardent from a soldier '.  

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1 hour ago, Rainier said:

Why would you be so cruel as to taunt me with the yet-unwritten sequel, Nightblood, although personally I'm hoping Brandon has the guts to name it Type Four Invested Entity, instead.

If he's gonna name it Type 4 Invested Entity, then he's gonna have to go full Alcatraz Vs. The Evil Librarians and name it Type 4 Invested Entity and the Search to Destroy More Evil, or some such.

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14 hours ago, Karger said:

Sja-anat does have a spren looking for a bond in the tower...  Also we have a few Bondsmiths unaccounted for.

Mraize will not be happy if the Enlightened spren goes to Rlain instead, lol

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38 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Mraize will not be happy if the Enlightened spren goes to Rlain instead, lol

Mrazie being unhappy makes me happy(as long as he does not know I am amused).

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3 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

As a non-Warbreaker reader, I would probably didn't understand anything (Type 1 invested, what?)

You're definitely focusing on the wrong detail there, given A) that he immediately explains that 'Type 1 Invested entity' refers to spren, so there's minimal opportunity for confusion, B), he's not using the term in the same way he did in Warbreaker, so having read Warbreaker doesn't actually help you understand what he's talking about, and C) pulling out a bunch technical jargon out of nowhere that the PoV character doesn't understand and just kind of hoping they'll catch up as he explains was exactly how he operated in Warbreaker; it was meant to be initially confusing there, just as it was here. 

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I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet, but do rhythms have anything to do with musicspren and the ryshadium?

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9 hours ago, Schneeente said:

Such a waste. If anything Dalinar should imprison Taravangian -.- 

That would most likely lose him the war. It would be among the gravest errors he could make. Taravangian needs to die.
He has heirs. In fact he has grandchildren. They are not going to and cannot, if they want to be taken seriously, stay in an alliance with somebody who imprisoned their king. That would destroy the coalition.

You have two options

  • You make it look like an accident or old age
  • You make it look like poison and arrest Adrotagia, role up the Diagramm and blame it on them
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3 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Ooooooo that would be a cool thing. Leshwi also seems to be ready to betray Odium if she gets to know he intends to destroy Roshar to win. She , kal and Venli could work some alliance out . 

I don't think kal knows about Nightblood and Zahel. More probably he meant it like ' how did u transition to being an ardent from a soldier '.  

This seems hard, given what Zahel said about the Fused relying on Odium's Investiture to stay alive. They'd need some kind of replacement, unless the Fused are fine with ending their immortality and giving the land to the singers.

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12 hours ago, Karger said:

I think the point is that for everyone to work together they need to treat each other equally.

That will be difficult. Equal is an ambiguous word here. Cryptics and Honorspren for example are inherently unequal in a certain sense. It is blatantly obvious that their minds work differently.

12 hours ago, Karger said:

  An alliance based only on mutual gain as opposed to mutual goals will eventually break down.

Their goal is survival. And it does not matter if the alliance fractures after victory.

12 hours ago, Karger said:

  If the spren don't learn to respect and trust the singers then the singers will have difficulty allying themselves with team radiant. 

You are asking them to meld their soul on command. And that is not going to work. Singers react differently to Spren. Likewise humans killed their Spren. You are not going to convince the Dustbringer and Willshaper Spren that they should defeat Odium just to be turned to deadeyes by treacherous humans.

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

Why would he? This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards,

Odium does not care about his wishes. If he wins, Zahel will count as human and not fare well.

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen).

The fight caught up with him. He cannot run. He needs that sweet Stormlight and the perpendicularity is closed.

 

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