+robardin Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, IcaroRibeiro said: I didn't like much Zahel and Kaladin dialogue, it just felt rushed and out of place, just too much explanation that really depends on Warbreaker knowledge to makes sense. It would be superior if this dialogue was sparsed through more chapters rather than this lecture The fact Kaladin barely understands what Zahel was talking [about] didn't helped the dialogue either Brandon was always very subtle when inserting Cosmere elements in Stormlight Archive and I'm aware he's trying to change it now, but he needs to find a balance, this writing was SCREAMING Cosmere awareness, rather than just teasing it. Didn't worked for me About the story itself, I hope Zahel have already shared his knowledge with Dalinar and/or Jasnah, I don't see why would him hide important information about what Fused are supposed to be In-world, if a knowledgeable off-worlder like Zahel is going to do off-world magic stuff (Awakening) and drop terms and information about the wider Cosmere and the nature of Nalthis and the Returned, of course Kaladin would not understand most of it. By definition, neither would a reader who had not read Warbreaker. And that.. Is fine. Yes it means that for those readers who HAVE read Warbreaker, and more fully grok the hints being dropped (as well as the hints as to what is implied as happened after the events of Warbreaker), we get both an "easter egg" type of experience of recognition ("aha! He is a Returned and a high Heightening and has life sense / superhuman speed / he's Awakening the scarves!") as well as an even deeper sense of mystery than simply being about as confused as Kaladin ("...He classifies himself as a Lifeless now, after what he learned? What is that and when did he learn it?") And that... Is also fine. I think it's right to start the cross-Cosmere storylines this way: from the POV of the in-world, originally un-Cosmere-aware characters already set up in the original storylines (Kelsier, Wax, Vivenna, Kaladin, etc.) with a few clearly "knew (more of) the hidden secrets all along" type characters who were also already in the narrative gradually revealing themselves and what they know (Khriss, Hoid, Vasher/Zahel) in a natural way. Simply having him info dump on Kaladin or anybody else out of the blue, that would be unnatural. But Kaladin seeking him out because he's seriously considering becoming a swordmaster ardent fits the natural narrative, and Zahel being one of the ones who he trusts because (like Moash) he doesn't seem overawed by who he is, also fits. (Of course exactly WHY Zahel is like that, is not explained...) Besides, Kaladin (and Adolin) both know Zahel has off-world origins at this point, after talking to Azure in Shadesmar who herself admitted to being from another world, yet having had Zahel as a swordmaster as well ("the one who taught you that kata") and saying she'd come to Roshar in pursuit of him (implying they both had a common origin). Finding out he's an off-world version of a Fused or Herald from his own mouth, well, that maybe should pique him more than it did. Surely if Jasnah or Shallan were present, they'd have picked up on that more. But Kaladin simply focuses on "so, if they're like you, how can we kill them permanently?" Also: he must really trust Zahel if he thinks he'd tell him something like that. "Hey Stormblessed, guess what, I'm not from this world! I'm basically an alien Herald or Fused!" "Whoa! No WAY!" "Way, dude! Totally Yes Way!" "Hey, those guys are immortal! So that means, that means you're immortal!" "Well, there's immortal and then there's immortal. The weaker ones of our type, you can just bleed them out. Others would be much harder." "So which one are you?" *uncomfortable silence should have followed* Edited October 13, 2020 by robardin 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lookingglass Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 hours ago, robardin said: ... Yep, "cremhole", not that crem has a hole nor comes out of one (it falls from the sky) not collects in one, so, go figure. So by your logic, the true "cremhole" is the Stormfather? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Just now, lookingglass said: So by your logic, the true "cremhole" is the Stormfather? Uh... You said it, not me! (But now I kind of wish I'd said it, LOL) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schneeente Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 10 minutes ago, robardin said: Simply having him info dump on Kaladin or anybody else out of the blue, that would be unnatural. Honestly, that is my biggest criticism for that chapter. It feels highly illogical that Zahel just tells him all that. I thought Zahel was hiding? And Kaladin didn't even press him for it, he just asked an innocent question. I'd have preferred it if Kaladin had pressed him how exactly Zahel did "that stuff with the clothes" and was suspicious that he might be an agent of Odium and threatened to tell Dalinar. And to prevent that he reluctantly answers a few of Kaladin's questions. But well.. maybe there will be a scene in which this chapter makes sense in hindsight. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 6 minutes ago, Schneeente said: Honestly, that is my biggest criticism for that chapter. It feels highly illogical that Zahel just tells him all that. I thought Zahel was hiding? And Kaladin didn't even press him for it, he just asked an innocent question. Vasher has many objectionable traits, but stupidity and irrealistic thinking are not among them. He knows that if Odium wins, he will be in deep, likely fatal trouble. 6 minutes ago, Schneeente said: I'd have preferred it if Kaladin had pressed him how exactly Zahel did "that stuff with the clothes" and was suspicious that he might be an agent of Odium and threatened to tell Dalinar. And to prevent that he reluctantly answers a few of Kaladin's questions. But well.. maybe there will be a scene in which this chapter makes sense in hindsight. If Zahel were a spy, Dalinar'd be already dead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeployParachute Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Quote Zahel nodded. “Happened to your friend too. Up in the prison? The one with… that sword.” Szeth's imprisoned, huh? Missed this on the first read. Wonder if he is there voluntarily or not. Looking forward to some of the past year being revealed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Schneeente said: Honestly, that is my biggest criticism for that chapter. It feels highly illogical that Zahel just tells him all that. I thought Zahel was hiding? And Kaladin didn't even press him for it, he just asked an innocent question. I'd have preferred it if Kaladin had pressed him how exactly Zahel did "that stuff with the clothes" and was suspicious that he might be an agent of Odium and threatened to tell Dalinar. And to prevent that he reluctantly answers a few of Kaladin's questions. But well.. maybe there will be a scene in which this chapter makes sense in hindsight. I don't think Zahel is "hiding" so much as... Retired. Or trying to stay in retirement. He certainly doesn't seem too bothered by the idea that Azure/Vivenna had chased him to Roshar earlier, and even if she was last seen somewhere in Shadesmar, basically knows exactly where he is now unless he left. "Yeah, let's see her get through Cultivation's Perpendicularity now. And even if she does, so WHAT?" For all we know he's joined the 17th Shard, as in the Frost Faction, except that he appears to admit he has an Intent that he's meant to (and perhaps cannot help but) follow. And he doesn't regret "giving up the sword", which has two meanings: giving up fighting for a living, and of course, THE SWORD that Szeth's got. Even as he calls it a "mistake", it's "the best mistake I ever made". As for him suddenly expounding on Things Cosmere, specifically in the context of Invested Entities and Cognitive Shadows and spren and stapling shadows of souls to a become spren-like "dead man walking", remember, he's OLD and KNOWS A LOT and is, at heart, an academic. So when Kaladin innocently asked him "Are you like Wit?", basically meaning "a mysterious guy who knows a lot of secrets", that kind of triggered him to do a half-lecture, half "I've wanted to say this out loud to SOMEBODY for so long even if they don't know what I'm saying" type of speech. "Me? Like Wit? ME? You don't even know who or what Wit, or Hoid, is, puppy! Or me, for that matter! Let me tell you just how like, and yet very unlike Wit, I am! See, what I am, is..." Think about it. He's learned and figured out all this stuff about the True Nature of Returned, spren, Fused/Heralds, etc., all since the end of the events of Warbreaker, and could well have had that all in his head only this whole time, without even Vivenna to tell it to. If you're geeky in the right way, that is like a pressure cooker. I know I personally am prone to that kind of "more than you asked for" info rant, so I can totally see that kind of reaction from Vasher/Zahel! Come to think of it, the same thing happened when Vivenna innocently asked him about Awakening for the first time. She got a 300 level lecture. Edited October 13, 2020 by robardin 14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schneeente Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: If Zahel were a spy, Dalinar'd be already dead. (1) There is a difference between spy and assassin. (2) Until recently Odium wanted Dalinar alive. (3) Learning that someone is not who you expected him to be can destroy trust fundamentally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Oltux72 Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 2 minutes ago, DeployParachute said: Szeth's imprisoned, huh? Missed this on the first read. Wonder if he is there voluntarily or not. Looking forward to some of the past year being revealed. If you are wielding Nightblood, any imprisonment is voluntary. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Oltux72 said: Yes, it would be. Why would the Spren care about it? I think the point is that for everyone to work together they need to treat each other equally. An alliance based only on mutual gain as opposed to mutual goals will eventually break down. If the spren don't learn to respect and trust the singers then the singers will have difficulty allying themselves with team radiant. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Govir Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 7 minutes ago, DeployParachute said: Szeth's imprisoned, huh? Missed this on the first read. Wonder if he is there voluntarily or not. Looking forward to some of the past year being revealed. This was answered in a WoB, if you want to know, look in the spoiler. Spoiler Szeth is in prison because Dalinar told him to go there, and Szeth has *sworn* (Skybreaker sworn) to Dalinar. So yes, it's voluntarily to an extent. (I can't find the actual WoB where this was mentioned though, sorry) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Govir said: This was answered in a WoB, if you want to know, look in the spoiler. Reveal hidden contents Szeth is in prison because Dalinar told him to go there, and Szeth has *sworn* (Skybreaker sworn) to Dalinar. So yes, it's voluntarily to an extent. (I can't find the actual WoB where this was mentioned though, sorry) "If I told you your duty was to guard this cell, would you do it?" "I suppose so, aboshi. But I have a quest --" "Then, until further notice: guard this cell. Make sure nobody unauthorized takes that chamber pot away." "Aboshi, the chamber pot... that is definitely something I would want taken away every day, at least once. And what authorization would I require for such an act?" "Yes, that's a very good point. Why did Stormblessed - ah, never mind. Make sure nobody takes you and that sword of yours from this cell except me, how's that?" "Yes, aboshi. This I will do." Edited October 13, 2020 by robardin 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schneeente Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Such a waste. If anything Dalinar should imprison Taravangian -.- 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NameIess Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Well, I'm happy to see that we're starting to get some more Cosmere stuff. I guess that the Radiants haven't realized that Nightblood can perma-kill Fused yet. Awakeners are more dangerous in combat than I thought. Imagine what would happen if a Mistborn got their hands on lifesense. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) Just now, Schneeente said: Such a waste. If anything Dalinar should imprison Taravangian -.- That would cause problems. On the other hand if Shallan could spend some time work shopping her Taravangain impression... Edited October 13, 2020 by Karger 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schneeente Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 16 minutes ago, Karger said: That would cause problems. Less problems than getting lured away by him and when you come back Fused hold your city I'd presume 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 33 minutes ago, Govir said: This was answered in a WoB, if you want to know, look in the spoiler. Reveal hidden contents Szeth is in prison because Dalinar told him to go there, and Szeth has *sworn* (Skybreaker sworn) to Dalinar. So yes, it's voluntarily to an extent. (I can't find the actual WoB where this was mentioned though, sorry) He could be running the prison for all we know. He had some strong opinions about how prisons should be run in OB and Skybreakers are probably a good choice to run a prison. Being told to go somewhere is not the same as being sentenced. Keeping Szeth away from the frontlines is not a bad idea. How many times has he freaked out in battle? He ran away from Kaladin in their first fight, he gave up and tried to die in his second fight with Kaladin. He refused to go into the Thrill to help Dalinar in OB and made LIft do it instead. He's kind of unreliable. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Subvisual Haze Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Kaladin loves fighting but hates losing people... Here's hoping this is set up for an 80s action movie of Kaladin going behind enemy lines as an unstoppable one man army. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, Schneeente said: Less problems than getting lured away by him and when you come back Fused hold your city I'd presume Actually it could easily cause more. Arresting a sovereign on suspicion without publicly stating their reasons would easily break the coalition. Telling everyone what Taravangian admitted would plunge Jah Kaved into a civil war and probably lead to his death along with the fact that most people would assume you are lying weakening the coalition. Loosing Urithiru would be bad but assuming you keep the oathgates not disastrous especially if Taravangian is revealed to have cut a deal with Odium's forces. You could maintain in public that he did it for humanitarian reasons, privately explain what is going on to the monarchs and put another ruler on the throne before Jah Kavad collapses. Loosing Urithiru would be rough but you could probably evacuate most of the people in it through the tunnels. Knowing Dalinar evac plans have already been prepared this time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coolsnow7 Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 Pretty sure Zahel just told us why the Recreance happened: for some reason the Radiants worried that continuing to use Stormlight would turn them into Fused for the other side. This is obviously somewhat speculative, but it aligns nicely with what we do know about the Recreance. It also aligns with the little that Odium said when Dalinar asked him: that the Radiants gave up because they feared losing their passion. (And he elaborates to confirm that he doesn’t mean “passion” in the Odium sense, but rather actual passion.) It also aligns with the changes they see in Honor along exactly these same lines. And mechanically it just makes sense: die when you’re invested too much and you generate a Cognitive Shadow that will degrade over time. Radiants feared this eventuality, because it would entail the mental degradation and loss of purpose that the Fused currently exhibit - and as we saw last week, the Fused are more likely than not to destroy Roshar the way the Humans destroyed Ashyn. The things that are missing right now are what about the False Desolation - and specifically how cutting off the Parshendi from Ba-Ado-Mishram created the Parshmen - led the Radiants to worry about this; as well as how Dawnshards have anything to do with it. But I’m pretty confident that this is what the entire Recreance is about. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+robardin Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 12 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: Keeping Szeth away from the frontlines is not a bad idea. How many times has he freaked out in battle? He ran away from Kaladin in their first fight, he gave up and tried to die in his second fight with Kaladin. He refused to go into the Thrill to help Dalinar in OB and made LIft do it instead. He's kind of unreliable. Did you just call Szeth a wuss? 'Cause that's definitely the vibe I'm getting. Szeth. Szeth son-Neturo... Son-son-Vallano... Who wore white on the day he went to kill a king. And another king. And all their guards. In nation after nation. Who now carries Nightblood, and fell from the sky to cleave a Thunderclast into oblivion. A wuss. Just so's we're clear. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Child of Hodor Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 4 minutes ago, robardin said: Did you just call Szeth a wuss? 'Cause that's definitely the vibe I'm getting. Szeth. Szeth son-Neturo... Son-son-Vallano... Who wore white on the day he went to kill a king. And another king. And all their guards. In nation after nation. Who now carries Nightblood, and fell from the sky to cleave a Thunderclast into oblivion. A wuss. Just so's we're clear. More that he's unstable, but sure. I'll just whisper in different voices and he'll freak out and leave :). 49 minutes ago, Karger said: That would cause problems. On the other hand if Shallan could spend some time work shopping her Taravangain impression... I'm very into this. What a challenge and an opportunity considering his personality changes day to day. If she's acting out of character for him they might chalk it up to his daily change. First she needs to figure out his Smart - Sociopathic, Dumb - Empathetic deal. Then if she wanted to be the smart one she'd have to take a photo memory of the complicated math questions, have people work out the answers, memorize those and use them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valigus Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said: Kaladin loves fighting but hates losing people... Here's hoping this is set up for an 80s action movie of Kaladin going behind enemy lines as an unstoppable one man army. Sounds awesome, I’d love to read that, just kaladin and leshwi Edited October 13, 2020 by Valigus 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rainier Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said: This series is about two sides learning to coexist with each other rather than learning to destroy each other. There's that Whig History again. I disagree, I think this is a story about superheroes who have to overcome personal flaws in order to unlock their superpowers, in order to stave off the apocalypse and defeat the evil god behind it. 3 hours ago, SomeRandomPeasant said: I am utterly confused with this point. It is clearly important that both races at least attempt to work together instead of outright annihilating each other. Again, why is it important? Who is it important to? Is it important to you? To Tor? To Brandon? It's certainly not important to the characters themselves, since the thing that's actually important is, once again, surviving the apocalypse and defeating the evil god behind it. Kaladin seems to want reconciliation, but Jasnah is fine with genocide, and Venli wants independence, not a war and certainly not allies in a war. The spren themselves are divided, with some bonding humans, others refusing, and still others actively planning revenge. There's no reason why this should end in racial equality any more than it should end in one side winning or both sides being destroyed. 2 hours ago, the_archduke said: The spren seem to have no interest in inclusion and racial equality. 2 hours ago, the_archduke said: Inclusion and racial equality are 21st century earth ideals that I hope we all agree are laudable. Assuming that the humans and singers of Roshar share these ideals (much less non-human spren sharing them) is... odd. Yes, this is exactly what I'm talking about. There might be compelling reasons for everyone to work together, but there are even more compelling reasons why they're at each others' throats in the first place. There have been four thousand years since Antietam Aharietiam. We've had nominal equality between races for what, three hundred years, tops? And that we is only Western Europe and the US. Don't ask the Chinese Communist Party to tolerate ethnic diversity, because they're not interested. I'm not against racial equality, I'm against poorly disguised message fiction. I hope Brandon isn't writing that story, but it amazes me how strong the desire is for such content. 1 hour ago, IcaroRibeiro said: About the story itself, I hope Zahel have already shared his knowledge with Dalinar and/or Jasnah, I don't see why would him hide important information about what Fused are supposed to be Why would he? This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards, he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen). He's not Gandalf, fighting for the good guys. He's more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino: old, retired, surly, with a strong desire to be left alone, but a heart of gold behind the gruff exterior. It's only once you mess with him personally that he'll unleash his full capabilities. In Gran Torino Eastwood didn't go snitching to the police, and I doubt Vasher is willing to become entangled by aligning himself with Dalinar so publicly. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valigus Posted October 13, 2020 Report Share Posted October 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Rainier said: Why would he? This is simply not his fight. He's not on Roshar to get involved in a war between Shards, he's on Roshar to get away from that nonsense. He even says as much. The only reason he's opened up to Kaladin is because of their personal connection, probably because Vasher sees himself in Kaladin, and sees his own past folly in Kaladin's future. He's left the fight behind, or is trying desperately to pretend like he has (remains to be seen). He's not Gandalf, fighting for the good guys. He's more like Clint Eastwood in Gran Torino: old, retired, surly, with a strong desire to be left alone, but a heart of gold behind the gruff exterior. It's only once you mess with him personally that he'll unleash his full capabilities. In Gran Torino Eastwood didn't go snitching to the police, and I doubt Vasher is willing to become entangled by aligning himself with Dalinar so publicly. I agree with this assessment and honestly I think this is setting kaladin up as a potential world hopper just like shallan, In fact thinking about it was that could ultimately be the end result of kaladins character arc. By potentially accepting that he has done what he can for the people of roshar and leaving to go off and help others in other places, sounds kinda fantastical since I’m sure he is gonna die but still. I’m very intrigued about the reasons kaladin is becoming cosmere aware 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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