RoW Chapter 15 Discussion

[SomeRandomPeasant]

1 hour ago, the_archduke said:

Is it just me or is rlain being set up to be a different order than wind runner?  Willshaper when he meets back up with venli?

I actually think that Rlain will most definitely become a Windrunner. 

Having the Willshapers simply become the "Order of Singers" would be antithetical to the idea of inclusion and racial equality.  It is imperative that humans and singers work together in a single order to prove that the two races can form one cohesive unit.  Rlain would be the first step towards that.  Rlain even says that he will wait for a spren due to the "honor he represents", meaning that he wants to embody the idea of honor as well.  I think that, at the end of the series, singers and humans will be found in all ten orders.

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I actually think that Rlain will most definitely become a Windrunner. 

Having the Willshapers simply become the "Order of Singers" would be antithetical to the idea of inclusion and racial equality.  It is imperative that humans and singers work together in a single order to prove that the two races can form one cohesive unit.  Rlain would be the first step towards that.  Rlain even says that he will wait for a spren due to the "honor he represents", meaning that he wants to embody the idea of honor as well.  I think that, at the end of the series, singers and humans will be found in all ten orders.

Nice catch, and I hope you're right. If there is to be a "United People's Front For A Better Roshar" that unites "listeners" with Team Dalinar, with Venli as only the first example, that would be very satisfying.

I still wonder if the Stormfather knows of what Timbre has done, and what he would say about it.

[Guest Parallax]

Kaladin will be the new herald of Windrunners now that Vyre has truly killed Jezrien. 

Rlain should be an edgedancer, maybe one of Wyndle's gardening buddies could bond with him?

If I recall correctly there was a WoB in which someone asked whether Nalthis was the first planet Endowment invested on and they got a RAFO. I think we can safely assume the answer to that question is no. 

And Vasher calls Hoid an cremhole! Finally! Someone needed to say that. 

[Subvisual Haze]

Rlain chiding Kaladin for trying to be a white human savior felt awkward and forced.

[Rainier]

3 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

Having the Willshapers simply become the "Order of Singers" would be antithetical to the idea of inclusion and racial equality.

I'm curious why you think the idea of inclusion and racial equality would be present in a mostly-genocidal multi-millennia long recurring conflict. The spren themselves are the ones picking sides, after all, and why should they care one whit

5 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

It is imperative that humans and singers work together

Imperative to what, exactly?

6 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

I think that, at the end of the series, singers and humans will be found in all ten orders.

I'm mostly in agreement with this idea, but not through some kind of Whig history where everyone only ever gets better and progress is never undone. That's the vibe I'm getting from your post, that somehow everything must get better and it must get better in these specific ways that mirror reality.

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

Rlain chiding Kaladin for trying to be a white human savior felt awkward and forced.

There are many moments like this, and it's usually when Brandon strays away from fancy magic systems and tries to represent....anything else.

[the_archduke]

Why do we assume Rlain should be a Windrunner?  Because he was with Bridge 4?  Rock is growing into something else, why not Rlain as well?  

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Rlain chiding Kaladin for trying to be a white human savior felt awkward and forced.

Really? Felt extremely on point to me

[Pattern]

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

The key difference between what had been Type I and Type II (Lifeless) was the part about being "sentient" - a Lifeless is not sentient, as the defintion of Type II was Mindless Manifestations in a Deceased Host. (...or is a Lifeless not mindless? ...maybe this is the part he learns more about, via The Chronicles of Clod?)

This is exactly what I meant. And I always had trouble with that distinction since it didn't really fit in my understanding.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, the_archduke said:

Why do we assume Rlain should be a Windrunner?  Because he was with Bridge 4?  Rock is growing into something else, why not Rlain as well?  

This is true - some had tabbed Rlain as possibly becoming a Bondsmith, as forging the bonds between humans and listeners, that could still happen.

And I think the observation that once it's seen (by readers, especially) that Radiant spren can bond with listeners, as seen with Venli, even if they've already got a Voidspren!, that it would be unequal if somehow listeners could only be Willshapers. That makes little narrative sense.

[LuckyJim]

6 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Why do we assume Rlain should be a Windrunner?  Because he was with Bridge 4?  Rock is growing into something else, why not Rlain as well?  

I think Rock is only growing into something else because he refused to fight in the first place, and is now leaving Bridge 4 altogether. Rlain is still an active member, only staying out of combat because he hasn't gained the abilities of a squire, and he desires to join the Windrunners as well.

[Subvisual Haze]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

Really? Felt extremely on point to me

Exactly, because it's precisely what someone specifically living in our culture at this particular place and moment of history would say.  Roshar is physically an incredibly alien environment with a feudal based society yet people have extremely modern takes on social issues.

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Pattern said:

This is exactly what I meant. And I always had trouble with that distinction since it didn't really fit in my understanding.

Well you can see from an Awakener's POV, especially an Awakener who himself is a Returned like the Five Scholars were, why that would be a distinction they'd draw.

They are unaware of any kind of Command being placed upon themselves, and are aware that it's (still) beyond human capability to generate a Divine Breath (though they know or sense enough about it to call it Divine and that it is indivisible), while you can create Lifeless not only with only a single Breath (originally requiring 25 until they found the right Command), but also to animate long-dead animals (squirrel!) and inanimate objects, preferably in the form of people (straw men or statues).

Very easy to think of long-dead human corpses as equivalent to "inanimate objects".

Maybe he discovers the deep Command that underlies all Returned that makes them effectively "Lifeless as created by Endowment". That would be mind-blowing.

[DeployParachute]

1 hour ago, Valigus said:

I find it interesting that both kaladin and shallan are becoming cosmere aware, it’s obviously being done in ways that fit their characters more. 

shallan now has limited knowledge of many worlds and will continue to try to learn more about them.

kaladin is inquisitive and having seen what zahel can do and not been given a clear answer will likely continue to ask questions maybe even talking to jasnah or shallan about it.

basically these 2 characters seem to have been chosen for some reason to become more cosmere aware, which is interesting for kaladin because I was sure he was going to die.(specifically by the end of book five)

There is a WoB somewhere, that Brandon speaks on his needing to get Shallan and Kaladin introduced to us and each other quickly in the narrative, as they will be spending a LOT of time together over the course of the entire SA narrative. Also, Kaladin dying by book 5 is laughable. Kaladin becoming a Type 2 invested entity, however...

Edited October 13, 2020 by DeployParachute

[+robardin]

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

Exactly, because it's precisely what someone specifically living in our culture at this particular place and moment of history would say.  Roshar is physically an incredibly alien environment with a feudal based society yet people have extremely modern takes on social issues.

Wait, I think you're crossing and re-crossing between IRL and fantasy here.

I would say that in-world, Rlain has a very legitimate reason to reject an honorspren being "commanded" to bond with him. He's not ignorant of what a spren bond is at this point. I was shocked that Kaladin felt like he could do so.

It was notable that he was only forcing Yunfah to "consider" Rlain "for a week", of course, and maybe they'll still bond when Yunfah shows up as requested to do his weeklong interview, and then Rlain saying "that's not how I'd want to bond a spren" ends up being exactly the factor that causes Yunfah TO bond with him.

You can't say that that would not be a fitting narrative! Referring to "modern takes on social issues" is completely unnecessary (and feels to me like you're looking for a straw man to fight).

[scm288]

I am not certain that Vasher/Zahel's theory of Cognitive Shadows is entirely correct... In Mistborn, Secret History, we see

Spoiler

 

Kelsier and other Cognitive Shadows of the recently deceased come into the Cognitive Realm--and then they (the Cognitive Shadow) pass on into the Beyond. Which implies that the Cognitive Shadow itself passes to the Beyond? Which makes it more--in my mind at least--an actual aspect of the human soul and not just a fake 'imprint' of power, or a shell of the soul, or whatever.

Whoever and whatever Kelsier, Vasher, and the Heralds are--whatever the Fused are--I believe that there's a lot more happening than even Vasher understands.

 

"There's always another secret..."

Edited October 13, 2020 by scm288

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Wait so logicspren are basically analogues to semiconductors  right ? 

 

Woah , omg , so they are copies. Perfect copies. Not the initial souls. 

Huh like Whole Brain Emulations , theoretical copies of brains run on computers which have the same exact personalities and memories as the human being emulated  , which can hypothetically let humans achieve immortality and super intelligence and a few other things. 

Woah . He's using real world sci fi and science analogues for Magic. 

My respect for Sanderson as an author has increased so much. 

So Zahel seems to be a living case of the ' Ship of Theseus ' paradox .

 

But I can't help feeling proud that he actually used a real swearword. 

I actually forgot what they were called, aye fabrial circuitry!

I have to say that wasn't a philosophical dilemma I was expecting with Cognitive Shadows at all (aside from Shades, now that I think about it) only with Ashravan

Brandon did get colourful with Wayne and there was... uhm "Nale's nuts" quite recently

[Rogueshar]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

I think that's exactly what he's saying, and also that Roshar is not the same as the other two, it is somehow older. This tracks somewhat with the comments we've got from Brandon that indicate that Roshar existed pre-Shattering.

If both Nalthis and Scadrial are both created post-Shattering, it begs the question then just how many planets were created post-Shattering and why did the Shard decide to create their own worlds rather than invest in the already inhabited planets. 
I also agree that Roshar was pre-Shattering with both WOB and in world text, and that might means that Ashyn was also a pre-Shattering civilization as well. But I don't know if that's been confirmed. But it would be weird for humans to come post-Shattering only to Ashyn and not to the other inhabitable planet in the system.  

[+Bliev]

18 minutes ago, robardin said:

Wait, I think you're crossing and re-crossing between IRL and fantasy here.

I would say that in-world, Rlain has a very legitimate reason to reject an honorspren being "commanded" to bond with him. He's not ignorant of what a spren bond is at this point. I was shocked that Kaladin felt like he could do so.

It was notable that he was only forcing Yunfah to "consider" Rlain "for a week", of course, and maybe they'll still bond when Yunfah shows up as requested to do his weeklong interview, and then Rlain saying "that's not how I'd want to bond a spren" ends up being exactly the factor that causes Yunfah TO bond with him.

You can't say that that would not be a fitting narrative! Referring to "modern takes on social issues" is completely unnecessary (and feels to me like you're looking for a straw man to fight).

It also tracks from the last Rlain/Kaladin scene we had where Rlain wants empathy and to be listened to, and Kaladin does that well sometimes and doesn't do it well at other times. And the whole human/singer thing is VERY Roshar. Specism is very much a thing in that world, just like gender norms are. It's not projecting any "values" to see those interactions. 

People in subjugated positions have fought against that since the beginning of time. This is not modern or new, even if it's new for the people who weren't in those positions to acknowledge it.

ETA: to me it felt less modern than Biblical, actually, which is how I how a lot of the slave/free peoples stories from SA. 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Bliev

[I Am A Fish]

Zahel's summary of Wit was accurate.

[Friendshipspren]

16 minutes ago, Honorless said:

I actually forgot what they were called, aye fabrial circuitry!

I have to say that wasn't a philosophical dilemma I was expecting with Cognitive Shadows at all (aside from Shades, now that I think about it) only with Ashravan

Brandon did get colourful with Wayne and there was... uhm "Nale's nuts" quite recently

Ooooooo fabrial circuitry. Noice name. 

Yeah I thought thier souls never left to the Beyond. 

Heyyyyyyyyy , secret history spoilers

Spoiler

So kelsier did Actually go to the Beyond .

His soul wasn't preserved when he went to the well. He just got a good imprint in. 

Also vin, u had that option too. One of u could have went to the Beyond with elend while the other could have returned to Scadrial . U could have had the best of both world's. Noooooooooo .

Wait so what happened to vins copy ?? Did it leave too ? I guess so. 

 

Yeah but Wayne never actually uses real swearwords. 

It's diluted and uses a whole lot of euphemisms. 

Nale's nuts comes close tho yeah . 

But the A word has this intensity ya know ? 

Edited October 13, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
A little polishing

[Isilel]

1 hour ago, Pattern said:

Now Zahel knows more - and refers to himself as a walking dead.

He doesn't know something very important about the missing memories, though, Warbreaker spoilers:

 

Spoiler

Namely, that they begin to resurface when the event that prompted the Return draws near and come back completely immediately before the Returned fulfills their purpose. Personally, I think that the memories are taken to avoid the conflict of multiple future sights and let Endowment steer towards the futures she favors without interference. The Returned are her tools in this endeavor, but they have free will and every individual one can fail to accomplish the goal of their Return. As all the Five Scholars seem to have done.

 

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Wayne never actually uses real swearwords. 

It's diluted and uses a whole lot of euphemisms. 

Nale's nuts comes close tho yeah . 

But the A word has this intensity ya know ? 

Yeah, for a Sanderson work, Zahel dropping that word kind of stood out. Wayne would probably have said "ash hole", haha.

In fact does this forum's swear filter/Cosmere auto-translator pull that word? Ahem. Testing: "Hoid is an cremhole"

 

... Yep, "cremhole", not that crem has a hole nor comes out of one (it falls from the sky) not collects in one, so, go figure.

Edited October 13, 2020 by robardin

[I Am A Fish]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Yeah, for a Sanderson work, Zahel dropping that world kind of stood out. Wayne would probably have said "ash hole", haha.

I honestly thought that using that term really fit Zahel/Vasher's personality, and I think that cremhole, or any other substitute wouldn't have fit as well.

On a completely separate note:

I really enjoyed what was said about cloth blocking swords. Historical accuracy makes my day.

[+Bliev]

31 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

If both Nalthis and Scadrial are both created post-Shattering, it begs the question then just how many planets were created post-Shattering and why did the Shard decide to create their own worlds rather than invest in the already inhabited planets. 
I also agree that Roshar was pre-Shattering with both WOB and in world text, and that might means that Ashyn was also a pre-Shattering civilization as well. But I don't know if that's been confirmed. But it would be weird for humans to come post-Shattering only to Ashyn and not to the other inhabitable planet in the system.  

I wonder if this will be an Easter egg for a while, actually. Makes me wonder if Adonalsium was on a world-building spree of some sort. Trying new things, creating new peoples. Maybe it was seen as a threat by those who did the shattering?

But I suppose not if Ruin and Preservation promptly did the exact same thing. 

[+robardin]

Something haunting in the way that Zahel includes himself as well as the Fused in observing: "The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We’re spren masquerading as men."

Has he figured out what his Intent would be, then? In his time, he's surely seen many Returned who choose to give up their Divine Breath, even as he's also seen Returned just go on and on and on (and been one of those, too), as well as those who just die (possibly of Breath Starvation) or get killed (him being directly involved in a number of cases). Has he puzzled out what motivated those who gave up their Divine Breath? Does he consider that as "fulfilling their Command" such that he must surely wonder what his own would be?