RoW Chapter 15 Discussion

[Valigus]

Just now, Agent34 said:

I mean he can still die... and then get flooded with Investiture and become a shadow!

.

That’s actually a good point and very well what this chapter coudl he implying, I’ve seen people suggest that kaladin could become a new herald and be reaped in braise during the gulf between books 5 and 6, this may imply that theory especially with all the talk of type 2 entities and the heralds being that. 
 

but I imagine there had to be a reason that shallan and kaladin were chosen, another point is can radiants die of old age, if stormlight heals you back to your mental image of yourself wouldn’t you always remain the same age.

[+honorblades]

1. Storms, organic rhythm fabrials.. now that’s something I didn’t expect. That has a very Wheel of Time vibe. 
 

2. So we’ve seen this before - humans can almost hear the rhythms, but not quite. Some are better than others. Some singers even notice humans unconsciously attuning the rhythms.. I wonder if they can be pushed over the edge somehow to fully hear them? 
 

3. Hmm.. a fossil older than Hoid or the shards. It had to have come from Yolen then, right? How and why did Zahel get his hands on it? 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Do we necessarily need to hear him say the commands though? Couldn't he just have whispered them? That's not technically mumbling because it's clearly stated.

I suppose that might work.  However whispers are usually quite audible and you would think that Kaladin would pick up on that when hyper focused on an opponent.

1 minute ago, lightweaver spy said:

3. Hmm.. a fossil older than Hoid or the shards. It had to have come from Yolen then, right? How and why did Zahel get his hands on it? 

Especially considering that Yollen is missing.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Karger

[Experience]

Just now, Karger said:

I suppose that might work.  However whispers are usually quite audible and you would think that Kaladin would pick up on that when hyper focused on an opponent.

Ya. I think it could go either way really, he might have just said it out of earshot, or done it mentally, we just don't know. I'm guessing we'll see more of his awakening later on and hopefully it'll be more clear which one it is.

[+Oltux72]

25 minutes ago, Innovation said:

So lifeless are type 3, organic nonliving Awakened objects are type four, and so on?

Probably not, for Zahel's new system needs to have a place for bodyless Cognitive Shadows. Nor is it clear that all the objects he enumerated can be made with Awakening.

15 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Is Nalthis a created planet like Scadrial? If so did Endowment create it or did someone else?

Terraformed likely. Well, yolenoformed. A native fauna is unlikely to contain something terrestial like a nautiloid or an ammonite, or whatever Zahel carried with him. Earth spend much longer as a wasteland without multicellular life than the green planet with complex life we are seeing now. If you pick a terrestial planetr to settle you are likelier to find something with microbes only.

But that raises a question. Whence did he get it? Scadrial? Yolen?

[+honorblades]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Especially considering that Yollen is missing.

Indeed. This, given Zahel’s nature as a scientist and scholar, makes me think he most likely got it from someone in Silverlight. Honestly I would be shocked if he wasn’t in contact with at least a few people there. 
 

I doubt he’s been to Yolen itself, but it is possible I suppose. 

[Pattern]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Especially considering that Yollen is missing.

No wonder if every worldhopper took a rock away from it...

[+Bliev]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I suppose that might work.  However whispers are usually quite audible and you would think that Kaladin would pick up on that when hyper focused on an opponent.

Although it does sound like there's some distance between them at that moment, and he can't see Zahel. So whispering could definitely fit. 

[Nathrangking]

Vasher you and Hoid need to have a debate over cosmere stuff. Wayne, Nightblood, and the Stormfather will moderate!!

[Experience]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

But that raises a question. Whence did he get it? Scadrial? Yolen?

Also, why does he have it. Does it have some magical importance, or is it something else?

[HipsterStick]

21 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Not to derail the current excitement over everyone's favourite grumpy ardent but humans are growing closer to the Rhythms. Rlain says some are close to knowing/hearing the pure tones and Kaladin almost senses something when Rlain attunes. This is pretty big.

I’m all for Kaladin learning about Listener culture. If that’s not one of the things he ends up doing with his semi-retirement, I’ll be sorely displeased.

Also, I’m kind of really hoping he finds that flute again...

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

Although it does sound like there's some distance between them at that moment, and he can't see Zahel. So whispering could definitely fit. 

Zahel seems to awaken more then once.

[+honorblades]

21 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Is Nalthis a created planet like Scadrial? If so did Endowment create it or did someone else?

This wouldn’t surprise me terribly, I mean Awakening itself is only a couple hundred years old. It could be that Endowment didn’t create Nalthis, but she could have populated it with life. 

[Rogueshar]

1 minute ago, Oltux72 said:

But that raises a question. Whence did he get it? Scadrial? Yolen?

I was under the impression from the text that he got it from Roshar. But I could be wrong, I've only read the chapter once. From how I was reading the text he was implying that Roshar was a very ancient planet.  
It can't be Scadrial, that planet was created post Shattering.
Possibly be Yolen, though from Khriss's notes Yolen is hard to get to or they can't find it or something. 

[Pattern]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Zahel seems to awaken more then once.

Yeah. And he is also considered a criminal. What if he stole a HUGE amount of breaths from Nalthis when he left. Perhaps took back his "gift" to the God Kings?

[+honorblades]

20 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The Light is draining, the gemstone is cracking, it's like a fabrial without the need to physically capture the spren.

 

Hmmm... this could be a clue as to how humane fabrials could be crafted? Something tells me there will always be fabrials that need captured spren however, particularly off-world from Roshar 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Pattern said:

Yeah. And he is also considered a criminal. What if he stole a HUGE amount of breaths from Nalthis when he left. Perhaps took back his "gift" to the God Kings?

I mean you can't steal breath from a person.  Hallandran might not be happy with him though if you somehow convinced Susebron to give back the wealth of peace.

[+honorblades]

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

OMG.  Zahel! is not speaking.  Kaladin should hear him mumbling in a alien language.  Either Brandon forgot this or Zahel! is 10th heightening!

I’m willing to bet that 10th heightening grants implicit mental command, but if you know enough (which Zahel clearly does) you could do it at an earlier heightening

[Pattern]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I mean you can't steal breath from a person.  Hallandran might not be happy with him though if you somehow convinced Susebron to give back the wealth of peace.

Perhaps the correct term I should have used is "smuggled". Nalthis does have it's customs service - so they are probably concerned of Breaths being transportet off-planet.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Pattern

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Yeah. And he is also considered a criminal. What if he stole a HUGE amount of breaths from Nalthis when he left. Perhaps took back his "gift" to the God Kings?

The scarf should be white. It looks to me like he cannot strictly awaken with Stormlight, but he can boost aspects of his Heightening with it.

4 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

It can't be Scadrial, that planet was created post Shattering.

By that logic it could not have yolish life forms at all. If they can make living animals, they can also make fossils.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

I’m willing to bet that 10th heightening grants implicit mental command, but if you know enough (which Zahel clearly does) you could do it at an earlier heightening

Maybe.  However it requires practice just to do it at tenth hightening. I don't see how Zahel could manage it at the sixth.

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The scarf should be white. It looks to me like he cannot strictly awaken with Stormlight, but he can boost aspects of his Heightening with it.

This would be really cool.  I wonder if Azure will figure out this trick.  It would be awesome to see what are effectively two 10th hightening people in a combat situation.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Karger

[+robardin]

20 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

3. Hmm.. a fossil older than Hoid or the shards. It had to have come from Yolen then, right? How and why did Zahel get his hands on it? 

Sounds like it... I also found his comment interesting that "The place I come from, it didn’t have any of these. It’s too new."
 

So Zahel/Vasher knows that his homeworld of Nalthis... Is "new"? Like Scadrial is new? Curious.

[Valigus]

I just realized syl would be so much fun worldhopping her general fascination with the world around her could very well make for a very fun read.

I’ve always wanted syl to learn how to read if kaladin won’t Because it just seems like it would be so useful to have officers with scribes attached as spren.

i also think it would be fun even if a little out of character if maybe syl became something of a scholar, I mean imagine how unstoppable the team of kaladin and syl would be if they went around the cosmere syl studying stuff and kaladin just beating stuff up, I’d read that honestly. Though in fairness kaladins and syls relationship is my favorite, they wouldn’t even be my favorite in isolation but together they are amazing. I like them especially more then the other spren bonds because honestly most of them seem pretty boring and one dimensional with the possible exception of wyndle who like syl seems like a human person but is also a bit boring.

[Rainier]

This chapter just makes me sad we won't get to see Nightblood (sequel to Warbreaker) until after book 5. I would also accept an appearance from Yesteel (Ghostbloods, maybe?).

39 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Is Nalthis a created planet like Scadrial? If so did Endowment create it or did someone else?

I think that's exactly what he's saying, and also that Roshar is not the same as the other two, it is somehow older. This tracks somewhat with the comments we've got from Brandon that indicate that Roshar existed pre-Shattering.

15 minutes ago, Pattern said:

Yeah. And he is also considered a criminal. What if he stole a HUGE amount of breaths from Nalthis when he left. Perhaps took back his "gift" to the God Kings?

Maybe I need to re-read Oathbringer, but I thought Vivenna was hunting a fugitive, and I thought that fugitive was Nightblood itself, not Vasher. Maybe I'm mistaken, or maybe it could go either way.

For the Awakening, I'm not sure why Vasher couldn't just be muttering under his Breaths (heh). I think Azure fought without screaming commands at her clothing, so the volume doesn't need to be very loud. Intent, after all, is what is most important.

[Pattern]

2 hours ago, Innovation said:

So, Awakening has more than 4 types? Or maybe the types have simply been changed? Type 1 is a Returned, but Zahel seems to believe that type 1 are Spren instead. Type 2 is lifeless, and Zahel has branded that as all beings that are “back from the dead.” looks like lifeless are in the same category as Retuned now.

I would interpret it more like: Former Type I and Type II Entities (Returned and Lifeless) are basically the same, they get grouped together into Type II. This makes sense, since Returned are basically Lifeless animated by one Divine Breath. The differences would be the Returned needing Investiture to keep alive while Lifeless just work until the body is too damaged - and the level of awareness. I would call them Type IIa and Type IIb. Cognitive Shadows stapled on a body - not necessary via Awakening, Hemalurgy should work perfectly fine - would fall into either subcategory, depending on whether they need Investiture to keep alive or not.
Type I are now entities of pure Investiture, spontaneously having gained sentience.

Edited October 13, 2020 by Pattern
Added level of self-awareness. Forgot that earlier.