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RoW Chapter 15 Discussion

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1 minute ago, Agent34 said:

Not to derail the current excitement over everyone's favourite grumpy ardent but humans are growing closer to the Rhythms. Rlain says some are close to knowing/hearing the pure tones and Kaladin almost senses something when Rlain attunes. This is pretty big.

Are they actually sensing the Rhythms or just being taught what they are an memorizing them? 

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1 minute ago, Experience said:

Are they actually sensing the Rhythms or just being taught what they are an memorizing them? 

I assume if Rlain says some are showing promising signs then they might actually be sensing something. Kaladin could feel something in the distance, certainly.

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Just now, Experience said:

Are they actually sensing the Rhythms or just being taught what they are an memorizing them? 

I think there was a recent WOB about humans being able to hear the Rhythms because they'd been living on Roshar so long. 

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Also, the farm. It appears that the spren are feeding off of the stormlight and the rhythms to allow the rockbuds to grow. Does this mean that the rythms can allow other spren to actually effect other things? Such as using a flamespren and rhythms to help make a fire?

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1) Oh wow, well Logicspren name is very appropriate in regards to fabrial science

2) I'm surprised, I was expecting a Shallan chapter given what we were told about how Cosmere relevant this chapter was going to be. Is this divided into two PoVs, I wonder? 

3) Sigzil and Skar are both very well-suited to their new role, from their PoVs back in OB

4) thank you for that mental picture Syl, but I'll keep my hair, thanks

5) He's going to Zahel, I hope Vasher can help him 

6) Using Stormlight to grow food, we did see that in WoR in Eshonai's PoV, wondered if it would be a stopgap measure on Urithiru, well that answers that

Also wow, no one asked how the Listeners were getting food for so long!

Uh what? Lifespren are getting attracted by the Rhythm of drum beats and getting infused by Stormlight from an emerald (Essence of wood, plants, moss in the 10 Essences chart, also the gemstone associated with the Truthwatchers, who can use the Surge of Progression to promote plant growth) and encouraging plant growth. The Light is draining, the gemstone is cracking, it's like a fabrial without the need to physically capture the spren.

Finally we see Rlain! 

7) Yet another time a human almost sensed the Rhythms! (first was Navani aboard the Fourth Bridge). Before this, the instances of humans reacting to the Rhythms seemed like unconscious actions on their part

8) it's not just a matter of trusting your Bondmate, though of course that's very, very important. Looking at this scene just made me go "brrr, no! Don't Bond an Honorspren, I think you're meant for something else!"  

9) “Wouldn’t want a parshman like that breeding, now would we? Who knows what kind of trouble they would make if they started thinking for themselves?”

disgustingly treating Parsh like livestock *shudders*. I had almost exorcised the finer details from my mind

Anyway, I will wait for a spren who will bond me for who I am—and the honor I represent

good! You deserve better!

Also, Kaladin's still the fastest Stormlight character to overcome his biases, though he does that by having them pointed out to him, it's still great

10+) Zahel's life sense, huh, and yeah Vasher does seem to like his disguises unkempt. I hope it still is a disguise and not how he sees himself. He can see spren, can Awakeners do that? Or Returned?

Zahel quotes!:

“Find something strong to drink,” Zahel said. “It can be better than Stormlight. Both will get you killed, but at least alcohol does it slowly.”

“Congratulations,” Zahel said. “Take the pension. Let all this become someone else’s problem.”

 

Well this is interesting:

Odd, how the man’s skin could seem smooth as a child’s one moment, then furrow like a grandfather’s the next.

 

Imagine Kaladin taking this to heart,

“Because I learned that conflict would find men no matter how hard I tried,” he said. “I no longer wanted a part in trying to stop them.”

*sigh* someday.... 

 

"chull brain", lol

 

ugh, now I can't un-grey my texts for some reason

 

• Yo, Vasher, that's cheating, you're using Awakening, oh wait Kaladin's using Sylblade 

• Kaladin is a true neutral agnostic

• I too am wondering how long this freaking scarf is! I mean seriously

• "I think we’re losing", Syl said. "To a guy wielding something he found in Adolin’s sock drawer."

oof

• Adolin came to tell Zahel, huh and Kaladin just started to put it together

• “I know gods exist. I simply hate them.” I assume Vasher is talking about the Returned here

11) I think I understand what Vasher means here

Adolin likes the thrill of dueling

Dalinar as Blackthorn liked the feeling of power, of overcoming, of competition

Kaladin is a fighter

 

also, nope that's the same scarf, drained of colour 

“Return when you hate the fight,” Zahel said. “Truly hate it.” He walked off between the sheets.

I don't want Kaladin to reach that point! 

12) I want to see Vasher and Hoid converse

13) Why is he calling himself a Type 2, that's Lifeless, is it just figurative? Or does he mean Type 2 in a different way?

14) Vasher has good understanding of the natural sciences... He knows of atoms, what in-universe are called axons. Archaeology would be difficult on Roshar (crem, possibly completely designed lifeforms) or Scadrial (created, completely designed lifeforms), compared to Nalthis - uh... wut? Nalthis is young (also designed lifeforms?). Wonder where he got that fossil from then?

15) “My soul,” Zahel said, “is like that fossil. Every part of my soul has been replaced with something new, though it happened in a flash for me. The soul I have now resembles the one I was born with, but it’s something else entirely.”

Cognitive part or Spiritual? I think Cognitive, Spiritweb takes time to decay, so it was probably just reConnected to the new Cognitive self made by Endowment

He's explaining Cognitive Shadows to Kaladin. I wonder if Zahel would be amenable to explaining Cosmere stuff, that might be just as useful, if not more, than having him on the battlefield.

16) Uh, Zahel saw Szeth and Nightblood off-screen?! Dammit! 

17) Ah, so he is using a different metric 

Type 1 living Investiture beings, Cognitive Entities like spren

Type 2 Cognitive Shadows like the Returned, the Heralds, the Fused, the Survivor oh wait he's not relevant here

18) “These enemies of yours though, I think they’re too strong for that. They’ve lasted thousands of years already, and seem Connected to Odium to feed directly on his power. You’ll have to find a way to disrupt their souls. You can’t just rip them apart; you need a weapon so strong, it unravels the soul.” He squinted, looking off into the distance. “I know through sorry experience those kinds of weapons are very dangerous to make, and never seem to work right.”

Forge another, I say! Mwahahahahaha! Mad science intensifies

19) “Grand ideals,” Zahel said. “Optimism. Yeah, you’d make a terrible swordmaster. Be wary of those Fused, kid. The longer one of us exists, the more like a spren we become. Consumed by a singular purpose, our minds bound and chained by our Intent. We’re spren masquerading as men. That’s why she takes our memories. She knows we aren’t the actual people who died, but something else given a corpse to inhabit…”

Is that why Endowment takes the memories of the Returned? Assuming that's what Vasher meant here, of course, also he knows Endowment, knows Edgli. Not a surprise but interesting nonetheless.

Edited by Honorless
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4 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Perhaps he didn’t want to tell Vivenna about the Shards. 

Quote

“What I can’t figure out,” he said, “is whether that was truly prophetic, or if I’m just trying to live up to it.”
“Does it matter?” she asked.
He walked for a time in silence. “No,” he finally said. “No, I guess it doesn’t. I just wish I knew if there is really something spiritual about the Returns, or if it’s all just cosmic happenstance.”

3 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Is it just me or is rlain being set up to be a different order than wind runner?  Willshaper when he meets back up with venli?

Sja-anat does have a spren looking for a bond in the tower...  Also we have a few Bondsmiths unaccounted for.

3 minutes ago, Rogueshar said:

Is Nalthis a created planet like Scadrial? If so did Endowment create it or did someone else?

We don't know who made it.  Adonalsium might have just made it afterward.

1 minute ago, Experience said:

Also, the farm. It appears that the spren are feeding off of the stormlight and the rhythms to allow the rockbuds to grow. Does this mean that the rythms can allow other spren to actually effect other things? Such as using a flamespren and rhythms to help make a fire?

We did see the listeners use stormspren and rhythms to create the everstorm so what you speak of should be possible.

Edited by Karger
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2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Also, the farm. It appears that the spren are feeding off of the stormlight and the rhythms to allow the rockbuds to grow. Does this mean that the rythms can allow other spren to actually effect other things? Such as using a flamespren and rhythms to help make a fire?

Perhaps that's how the singers did things in the past. Using the pure tones of Roshar rather than the prisons of spren.

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And Szeth still has Nightblood, which is... interesting. I would have guessed that Dalinar would have wanted to get rid of it. 

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18 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Not to derail the current excitement over everyone's favourite grumpy ardent but humans are growing closer to the Rhythms. Rlain says some are close to knowing/hearing the pure tones and Kaladin almost senses something when Rlain attunes. This is pretty big.

Definitely. Also Navani hearing a tone when Dalinar opened the perpendicularity in an earlier chapter.

Stormlight growing needs the Rhythms of Roshar. Wonder if they can be mimicked by Logicspren Fabrials.

Also good that Rlain refused to bond to a blackmailed honorspren. There is true honor in that opinion that should be much more helpful in the long run.

Fabrial computers with logicspren seem to be the logic consequence.

Kaladin joining the Ardentia? Syl would have been pleased for him to get rid of his hair!

Oh and the Awakening fight followed by realmatic talk from Zahel. It blew my mind.
The creation of cognitive shadows seem like a collection of earlier WoBs on the topic with inworld imagery ;-)

Edited by Pattern
Oh my...typos!
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1 minute ago, Rogueshar said:

Is Nalthis a created planet like Scadrial? If so did Endowment create it or did someone else?

Definitely sounds like it was created post-Shattering, which is new information. I would think Endowment made it, but maybe she accepted a "gift" some other Shard(s). 

Quote

“These enemies of yours though, I think they’re too strong for that. They’ve lasted thousands of years already, and seem Connected to Odium to feed directly on his power. You’ll have to find a way to disrupt their souls. You can’t just rip them apart; you need a weapon so strong, it unravels the soul.” He squinted, looking off into the distance. “I know through sorry experience those kinds of weapons are very dangerous to make, and never seem to work right.”

Confirmation that Nightblood can perma-kill Fused. He perma-killed a Thunderclast, so that makes sense. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10440

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Leave it to Zahel to give a cosmere mechanics lesson and make it interesting. Vasher do you have a secret store of breaths or have you hacked stormlight? @Agent34 ypu are correct the humans and rhythms are fascinating. Szeth is Kal's friend? I don't think so. Vasher why are you so grumpy at science for changing? You are a terrible scholar!! Is the shell from Yolen? Have you been on a Cosmere road trip? Kal you wasted the chance to ask good questions!!! Vasher go make nice with the dangerous sword that you created!!

Edited by Nathrangking
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Just now, Agent34 said:

Perhaps that's how the singers did things in the past. Using the pure tones of Roshar rather than the prisons of spren.

The thing is, the parshendi were said to not attract spren anywhere near as often as humans. So for things like lifespren it's fine, because it's the plant that attracts it. But can this also work with emotion spren? Such as using spren to enhance emotions?! Wait. Soothing and Rioting using spren and rhythms. I really want to see that now.

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1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Definitely sounds like it was created post-Shattering, which is new information. I would think Endowment made it, but maybe she accepted a "gift" some other Shard(s). 

Confirmation that Nightblood can perma-kill Fused. He perma-killed a Thunderclast, so that makes sense. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/355/#e10440

It's possible that the planet existed before the Shattering and Endowment just seeded life on the planet with a sped up evolutionary timeline. 

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8 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

Not to derail the current excitement over everyone's favourite grumpy ardent but humans are growing closer to the Rhythms. Rlain says some are close to knowing/hearing the pure tones and Kaladin almost senses something when Rlain attunes. This is pretty big.

Yeah, this stood out to me.

Quote

 

Rlain had confirmed [that the Parshendi had no Soulcasters]. And then he’d given humankind a gift.

Beside each lantern sat an ardent with a drum, softly banging a specific rhythm. This was the secret. People would have noticed if gemstone light made plants grow—but the mixture of the light and the music changed something. Lifespren—little green motes that bobbed in the air—spun around the drummers. The spren glowed brighter than usual, as if the Light of the gemstones was infusing them. And they’d move off to the plants, spinning around them.

... Somehow, the mixture of spren, music, and Light created a kind of organic machine that sustained plants via Stormlight.

 

Lifespren. The Rhythm of Life. Not of War. Beautiful.

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OMG.  Zahel! is not speaking.  Kaladin should hear him mumbling in a alien language.  Either Brandon forgot this or Zahel! is 10th heightening!

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1 minute ago, Child of Hodor said:

Definitely sounds like it was created post-Shattering, which is new information. I would think Endowment made it, but maybe she accepted a "gift" some other Shard(s).

It would make sense that Nalthis would be post-Shattering because Awakening was a fairly new phenomenon to the Nalthians at the time of Warbreaker. I just assumed that this was because Endowment was relatively new to the planet. I'm unsure if she alone could have made Nalthis though, it took both Ruin and Preservation to make Scadrial.  

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Just now, Karger said:

OMG.  Zahel! is not speaking.  Kaladin should hear him mumbling in a alien language.  Either Brandon forgot this or Zahel! is 10th heightening!

...what? :P 

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I find it interesting that both kaladin and shallan are becoming cosmere aware, it’s obviously being done in ways that fit their characters more. 

shallan now has limited knowledge of many worlds and will continue to try to learn more about them.

kaladin is inquisitive and having seen what zahel can do and not been given a clear answer will likely continue to ask questions maybe even talking to jasnah or shallan about it.

basically these 2 characters seem to have been chosen for some reason to become more cosmere aware, which is interesting for kaladin because I was sure he was going to die.(specifically by the end of book five)

Edited by Valigus
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3 minutes ago, Karger said:

“What I can’t figure out,” he said, “is whether that was truly prophetic, or if I’m just trying to live up to it.”
“Does it matter?” she asked.
He walked for a time in silence. “No,” he finally said. “No, I guess it doesn’t. I just wish I knew if there is really something spiritual about the Returns, or if it’s all just cosmic happenstance.”

 i don't think this precludes him from knowing about endowment--it could be just him wondering if there was a greater purpose to why she did it or not, although I grant you that it seems like he's not quite sure. Maybe he doesn't have his full memory back in Warbreaker yet? 

In terms of this chapter-- I JUMPED UP AND DOWN QUITE LITERALLY. This was amazing. Kal's response to his "demotion" seemed spot on, and I'm so happy to see him MAYBE start to empathize and care about Rlain at a different level. He was acting like a commander in the chapter where he ordered the spren to consider Rlain. But he wasn't acting empathetic. Similar to Kal's reaction to Adolin's attachment to Maya. He can't see anything but the possibility of another solider, another Radiant. He has to learn to listen more. 

In terms of Zahel...oh I love that he scoffs at Azure, mentions Cultivation by name, calls Szeth a cognitive shadow, knows that Nightblood is there, calls Wit an a-hole, etc. etc. This chapter is gold. 

I do think the nugget about Nalthis being younger than Roshar is interesting. Has anyone asked Brandon if Nalthis existed pre-shattering??

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

OMG.  Zahel! is not speaking.  Kaladin should hear him mumbling in a alien language.  Either Brandon forgot this or Zahel! is 10th heightening!

Or he mumbles it silently. But honestly, with all that Stormlight around, who knows what is necessary for the 10th hightening on a planet brimming with free Investiture.

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1 minute ago, Valigus said:

basically these 2 characters seem to have been chosen for some reason to become more cosmere aware, which is interesting for kaladin because I was sure he was going to die.

I mean he can still die... and then get flooded with Investiture and become a shadow!

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

...what? :P 

Zahel would need to speak his native language (Nalthian or one of their languages) to Awaken unless he's reached the 10th Heightening to be able to use mental Commands.

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Just now, Experience said:

...what? :P 

Quote

Vasher comments at one point that Awakeners at the Tenth Heightening can Command without speaking, though it takes a lot of training.[10] Mental Commands do not require verbalization, but many believe they do since it has never worked without one.[18]

That would not work.

Quote

Incomplete or mumbled Commands will take Breath but create no effect.[17]

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Just now, Agent34 said:

I mean he can still die... and then get flooded with Investiture and become a shadow!

Zahel would need to speak his native language (Nalthian or one of their languages) to Awaken unless he's reached the 10th Heightening to be able to use mental Commands.

Oh, for awkening. I was reading that for when they were just talking. :P Do we necessarily need to hear him say the commands though? Couldn't he just have whispered them? That's not technically mumbling because it's clearly stated.

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If Rlain suspects there is a "wedge" between him and drawing Stormlight as a squire that is due to the Stormfather, why don't they ask Dalinar to talk to ... the Stormfather about if that's the case?

Does the Stormfather know about (and Accept) all Oaths sworn by Radiants, or only those of Windrunners? Does he know about Timbre and Venli?

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2 minutes ago, Agent34 said:

I mean he can still die... and then get flooded with Investiture and become a shadow!

Zahel would need to speak his native language (Nalthian or one of their languages) to Awaken unless he's reached the 10th Heightening to be able to use mental Commands.

If he were at 10th heightening, the scarf would have been white, not gray. He must have learned mental awakening/commands along the way. Or maybe we just couldn't hear it on screen. 

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