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RoW Chapter 15 Discussion

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42 minutes ago, RazeU said:

I’ve seen several people in here discussing Zahel’s classifications, such as type ones... I re-read Warbreaker not long ago and if iirc the wording there was “type _ awakened entity”... whereas in this chapter he says “type _ invested entity... my question about this is does the distinction make a direct comparison impractical?

No, for Breath is made out of Investiture, so an awakened entity is by necessity also an invested entity. There is a connection and he is not ready to just ignore it.

Zahel, being a scholar, recognised that his system described a special case of a general system and hence abandoned it. Yet being a grumpy old man he kept the names.

 

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1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

No, for Breath is made out of Investiture, so an awakened entity is by necessity also an invested entity. There is a connection and he is not ready to just ignore it.

Zahel, being a scholar, recognised that his system described a special case of a general system and hence abandoned it. Yet being a grumpy old man he kept the names.

 

Ok. I think I’m starting to get a better grasp of what he was saying. He’s just tweaking the ore-existing name due to his continued education basically. 

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6 hours ago, snoopy said:

On Reddit, Brandon confirmed Zahel is not of the 10th heightening and that he was whispering commands:

I wonder what Heightening he is, then. Clearly he's got enough Breath to Awaken quite a few non-human-shaped scarves and sheets into combat use.

If he's suppressing his Divine Breath, as we saw in the opening of Warbreaker that has the side effect of also suppressing all the benefits of the Fifth Heightening. Well, except apparently for being functionally immortal, as that property of being a Returned may be too basic? But at any rate, he regains things like perfect pitch and perfect color sense, which means that suppressing his Divine Breath lost him those things.

So either his "life sense" is also something that cannot be suppressed, or he's got enough for at least the First Heightening and who knows, maybe up to the Fourth ("perfect life sense").

The First Heightening also lets you sense how much Breath another person has got. I wonder if Zahel's been anywhere in the vicinity of a certain new guardsman in the Sebarial camp who occasionally visits Shallan and her brothers, and how he'd react to sensing Breath in Mraize (if indeed Breath-based life sense is why he can always detect Veil, or anyone else, coming up behind him).

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12 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well, except apparently for being functionally immortal, as that property of being a Returned may be too basic?

Maybe.  Or maybe he just unsuppresses every few weeks and reverses his aging.

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

So either his "life sense" is also something that cannot be suppressed, or he's got enough for at least the First Heightening and who knows, maybe up to the Fourth ("perfect life sense").

Even people with just one breath have life sense and given that he is invested and Vahser is practiced he should be able to pick out Kaladin even without it being perfect.

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Quote

“Maybe I don’t think they’re safe,” Kaladin said. “Maybe I…”

“… don’t think they can care for themselves?” Zahel asked. “You and old Dalinar. Hens from the same nest.”

Combined with Adolin's comment in Chapter 12

Quote

“You’ve learned to worry about your squad,” Adolin said. “And to cut out extraneous information. I’ll bet Kaladin could tell you the age, eye color, and favorite food of everyone serving beneath him. But he’s not going to bother with remembering the names of the bar staff. Father’s the same way.”

And we've now had a couple very direct comparisons between Kaladin and Dalinar's style of command and personalities.  Kaladin also spends a fair amount of time now thinking about how others perceive him, and purposefully projecting an image of control and confidence around others. I don't think he focused much on that before but it's always been a huge priority for Dalinar.  Seems like we're setting up the idea that Kaladin is the natural successor to Dalinar as head of the armies.

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6 hours ago, RazeU said:

I’ve seen several people in here discussing Zahel’s classifications, such as type ones... I re-read Warbreaker not long ago and if iirc the wording there was “type _ awakened entity”... whereas in this chapter he says “type _ invested entity... my question about this is does the distinction make a direct comparison impractical? At a glance I would posit these are two separate lists and he just used similar language... naming apparitions of two different types of investiture or beings similarly can still be comparing apples and oranges. I guess I’m saying all this because it seems people are trying to fit things from SA into a package from WB and it just doesn’t fit exactly right to me. 

I dont think they are seperate lists, I think the old got thrown out once he learned more, as is the scholarly way.

Heres his quote on it.

Quote

“A few,” Zahel said. “More than I normally share.” He leaned forward, elbows on thighs. Wind blew at the hem of his robe, dangling over a drop of thousands of feet. “You want to know what I am? Well, I’m a lot of things. Tired, mostly. But I’m also a Type Two Invested entity. Used to call myself a Type One, but I had to throw the whole scale out, once I learned more. That’s the trouble with science. It’s never done. Always upending itself. Ruining perfect systems for the little inconvenience of them being wrong.”

 

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On 14/10/2020 at 9:07 AM, PrinceGenocide said:

I don't think kal knows about Nightblood and Zahel. More probably he meant it like ' how did u transition to being an ardent from a soldier '.  

Debatable. He may or may not know. It is left very ambiguously. 
 

I also find it very interesting that the fused are only focusing on getting Dalinar and Jasnah. They are totally ignoring kaladin, underestimating him! 
Remember what happened to someone when they last time underestimated him!? 

I feel that it may be the moment when Kal will finally swear his 4th oath and show them what a true windrunner can do! 
 

You do not mess with Kaladin stormblessed!

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13 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

Combined with Adolin's comment in Chapter 12

And we've now had a couple very direct comparisons between Kaladin and Dalinar's style of command and personalities.  Kaladin also spends a fair amount of time now thinking about how others perceive him, and purposefully projecting an image of control and confidence around others. I don't think he focused much on that before but it's always been a huge priority for Dalinar.  Seems like we're setting up the idea that Kaladin is the natural successor to Dalinar as head of the armies.

That's a sharp observation! It's fun to see Kaladin's "My Two Dads" thing play out with how they have both influenced him. Interested to see how he and Lirin interact in this book. I'm guessing Kaladin will help Lirin with caring for the wounded. Kaladin doesn't want to train Windrunners and Zahel convinced him not to be an ardent telling him to come back when he "hates fighting". No one hates fighting more than Lirin! It will be fun to see Kaladin interact with his mom dad and lil bro. "Gagadin!" :wub:

Speaking of Kaladin's "dads". *dons tinfoil hat* He could also be the natural successor to Tanavast after Dalinar. Dalinar repairs it, but Kaladin ends up being the next to Ascend.

Quote

"CHILD OF TANAVAST. CHILD OF HONOR. CHILD OF ONE LONG SINCE DEPARTED". WoK Chapter 46 "Child of Tanavast".

Kaladin is the only one the Stormfather calls Child of Tanavast he does it in both WoK and WoR. Brandon says it has significance.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12688

I don't think he's descended from Tanavast in a biological sense. Tanavast has been dead ~2,000 years. If he had biological children thousands of years ago then like a quarter of Roshar would be distantly related to him. 

Maybe Stormfather calls him that because Kaladin reminds the Stormfather of Tanavast a lot in term of their personalities or something. But, it's something to keep in mind. 

 

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33 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

That's a sharp observation! It's fun to see Kaladin's "My Two Dads" thing play out with how they have both influenced him. Interested to see how he and Lirin interact in this book. I'm guessing Kaladin will help Lirin with caring for the wounded. Kaladin doesn't want to train Windrunners and Zahel convinced him not to be an ardent telling him to come back when he "hates fighting". No one hates fighting more than Lirin! It will be fun to see Kaladin interact with his mom dad and lil bro. "Gagadin!" :wub:

Speaking of Kaladin's "dads". *dons tinfoil hat* He could also be the natural successor to Tanavast after Dalinar. Dalinar repairs it, but Kaladin ends up being the next to Ascend.

Kaladin is the only one the Stormfather calls Child of Tanavast he does it in both WoK and WoR. Brandon says it has significance.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/390/#e12688

I don't think he's descended from Tanavast in a biological sense. Tanavast has been dead ~2,000 years. If he had biological children thousands of years ago then like a quarter of Roshar would be distantly related to him. 

Maybe Stormfather calls him that because Kaladin reminds the Stormfather of Tanavast a lot in term of their personalities or something. But, it's something to keep in mind. 

 

I think it would be very weird to have tanavast be kaladin when kaladin is becoming more cosmere aware I feel like it’s more likely for him to become a world hopper, I do though like the idea of honor being split amongst the 10 heads of the orders.

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On 10/14/2020 at 1:05 AM, Experience said:

I'm not sure if it's been brought up yet, but do rhythms have anything to do with musicspren and the ryshadium?

 

18 hours ago, Harrycrapper said:

It has not been brought up that I could see, and I was wondering the same thing. Yea, there's something going on there and I don't have the faintest clue how the Rhythms, Musicspren, and Ryshadium are related, but it seems that they are. 

My personal opinion is that the Rhythms are inherent to Roshar (the planet) and that the Ryshadium can hear them. And because they can hear the Rythms, they "keep cadence" with them when running wild, which attracts Music spren, which then "bond" (in a non-Nahal bond way) to the horses much like mandra "bond" to Great Shells.

10 minutes ago, Valigus said:

I think it would be very weird to have tanavast be kaladin when kaladin is becoming more cosmere aware I feel like it’s more likely for him to become a world hopper, I do though like the idea of honor being split amongst the 10 heads of the orders.

I don't see why this would be weird. I think ascending to a Shard is a very Cosmere aware thing to do.

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1 minute ago, Govir said:

 

My personal opinion is that the Rhythms are inherent to Roshar (the planet) and that the Ryshadium can hear them. And because they can hear the Rythms, they "keep cadence" with them when running wild, which attracts Music spren, which then "bond" (in a non-Nahal bond way) to the horses much like mandra "bond" to Great Shells.

There's only one problem. The farm had gemstones, which the lifespren seemed to feed off of. The great shells have a gemstone, which most likely is the reason they can 'bond' with the mandras. I'm guessing that the Ryshadium don't have gemstones, because that would have been mentioned before now. So, why would it work for both of them? What else is something they have in common that might attribute to this?

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2 hours ago, Experience said:

There's only one problem. The farm had gemstones, which the lifespren seemed to feed off of. The great shells have a gemstone, which most likely is the reason they can 'bond' with the mandras. I'm guessing that the Ryshadium don't have gemstones, because that would have been mentioned before now. So, why would it work for both of them? What else is something they have in common that might attribute to this?

I always assumed that Ryshadium had developed tiny gemhearts, which is why only they have the bond. They also have stony hooves, which are reminiscent of native Rosharan nail and shell adaptations, so it seemed logical that they would also have gems.

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Ryshadiums are basically horses, a non-native species to Roshar.
Per WoB we got the confirmation, that they are the only species, besides humans, who have formed a spren bond, not necessarily a Nahel Bond, and are not native to Roshar. A question about them having gem hearts was RAFOed, but they are invested, to some extent.

Quote

Questioner

I'm really curious about Ryshadium. Is there something bigger about them?

Brandon Sanderson

It's not super-huge. They are non-native species who have started to form spren bonds like native species do. So, a symbiotic bond with a spren has started happening. Ryshadium are horses that have done that, basically. You could say that humans have done the same thing. Non-native species that have started to form spren bonds. The Ryshadium are the only other non-native species that that has started happening. Like the chasmfiends have a symbiotic relationship with the spren that they have, the Ryshadium have a spren.

It's not as visible, but it is there.

Idaho Falls signing (July 21, 2018)

 

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What the Heck!!!! I just read this chapter, and Vasher was just dropping Cosmere hints left and right. It's like he isn't even trying to hide what he is anymore. I also like that he coopted his 5-Scholar terms for Bio-Chromatic entities, and reapplied it to all invested entities. But dang!! This was a wild chapter.

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On 10/14/2020 at 3:23 PM, robardin said:

Nah, we've seen Teft twice already in RoW - he was in the fight with the Fused in Chapter 5 (when the Heavenly Ones did the recon of the flying barge), and then again in Chapter 9 when he told Kaladin he needed to go congratulate the latest Windrunner to swear the Third Ideal and to discuss the fact that Moash was still around. (And to delicately refer to the fact that Renarin found Kaladin "frozen" again.)

I guess this could be one of Teft's "good days" if the bad ones have gotten worse or more numerous, but as far as we know, he's still on normal active duty in important missions, and acting in a "sergeant type role" with respect to Kaladin on a relatively everyday basis.

I think there was no mention of him this chapter because he's a bit more of major character in Kaladin's life compared to Sigzil and Skar so a conversation with him would be too important to handle "off screen". My guess is that Teft will be promoted to a position above Sigzil and Skar. I've always seen Moash, Rock and Teft as the "Big 3" Bridge 4 members in Kaladin's life and Teft is really the only one remaining in a sense.

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8 minutes ago, Nef said:

I think there was no mention of him this chapter because he's a bit more of major character in Kaladin's life compared to Sigzil and Skar so a conversation with him would be too important to handle "off screen". My guess is that Teft will be promoted to a position above Sigzil and Skar. I've always seen Moash, Rock and Teft as the "Big 3" Bridge 4 members in Kaladin's life and Teft is really the only one remaining in a sense.

I agree with this - those guys were the ones closest to him in the original Sadeas bridge-running Bridge Four, with Sigzil, Skar, and Drehy being in the next tier.

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2 hours ago, Nef said:

I think there was no mention of him this chapter because he's a bit more of major character in Kaladin's life compared to Sigzil and Skar so a conversation with him would be too important to handle "off screen". My guess is that Teft will be promoted to a position above Sigzil and Skar. I've always seen Moash, Rock and Teft as the "Big 3" Bridge 4 members in Kaladin's life and Teft is really the only one remaining in a sense.

While I agree with what you said about Teft, Lunamor, and Vyre's relationships with Kaladin, I don't think Teft will be promoted above Sig and Skar. Teft does very well in his position as sergeant, but while he is good at directing and mentoring individual soldiers, he has neither the temperament nor the desire for higher level leadership, and I don't think he'd want the job anyway. On the other hand, Sig and Skar are both natural organizers and coordinators, and are better suited to that kind of large scale leadership position. 

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On 16/10/2020 at 6:36 PM, Nef said:

My guess is that Teft will be promoted to a position above Sigzil and Skar

I think so too. Teft has the knowledge experience to fulfill the role of leader of the windrunners. Until Kal comes back that is. 
And teft may hate getting that role because he may think he does not deserve it. So it can be a nice character growth moment for him. 
I really want windrunners to do Kal proud out there so he realises that he has made them capable of taking care of themselves and others! 
Skar and drehy have already shown it in OB!

 

Where is Lopen? I have not seen any mention of lopen !?

Edited by The Traveller
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10 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Where is Lopen? I have not seen any mention of lopen !?

Lopen alone in S-tier.

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Comparing what Vasher said about the process of Returning with Cognitive Shadows elsewhere, specifically with Kelsier and Ashravan.

How different was Kelsier's situation then, as a Cognitive Shadow? It seemed continuous: he was a person, then he was a... ghost, for lack of a better term. That instantaneousness and continuity from being a living person to a shadow of one makes me think that it was the same Kelsier. He was supposed to go to the Beyond, whether that be non-existence/"true death" or an afterlife, so that suggests the same thing, Kelsier wasn't technically a full-fledged Cognitive Shadow yet, just the Cognitive aspect/self/mind, he became one after Preservation dunked him in the Pool. So, I think Kelsier is the same Kelsier.

For Ashravan... I don't think it's quite the same Ashravan. Unless you believe people are basically just data. I created a topic wondering on Ashravan and what exactly Shai did a while back:

Now with Vasher's thoughts on being a Returned has made me look back at it and wonder...

Vasher said that Endowment's Divine Breath basically seeped through his Spiritweb and created a replacement for the spark-of-life, the Investiture that is the "soul" (which I think is the mind or the Cognitive aspect of the self, which makes sense as this is the part that goes to the Beyond or lingers on as a Cognitive Shadow). Much like someone else's Breath in a Lifeless, the Returned soul tricks the Spiritual into believing the person is still "alive"

They don't even think they are the same person, do they? They don't have any memories of their old selves, they don't retain any continuity. But speaking of continuity as a measure of self reminds me of that belief system that Arclo mentioned: a group of people believe that they only live for a day, when they go to sleep, they die. Next morning a new soul takes their place, going about their life, with the memories of those who came before. Scientifically too, we're not quite as continuous as we like to think we are (I highly recommend this Kurzgesagt video: 

 

With Ashravan, Shai basically provided a replacement spark-of-life to Ashravan from the Dor's Investiture, filtering the Investiture with her Soulstamps, to make the will-be Ashravan's Cognitive self more believable to Ashravan's Spiritweb. Recording all the things that made Ashravan... Ashravan. Everything that made him tick. Who are we without our catalogue of memories, our experiences? Are we just an "I"? What's the point of an "I" when that could basically become anybody depending on their experiences which would shape them? Old philosophical quandaries...

Of the other Cognitive Shadows that we see, Shades barely count as they seem to have been stripped of anything that made them an individual. They seem to be just rogue sparks-of-life, operating on strange rules.

The Fused do maintain continuity from what we understand so far, the only thing that changes is the Physical body. We don't know the process that made the Heralds Cognitive Shadows.

It seems Kelsier got very, very lucky.

As for Vasher, I'm going to trust his assessment due to his demonstrated aptitude so far, and what he's told us matches with what else we've seen so far. So, yeah, I think I tentatively agree with Vasher that the Returned don't really Return, they just get copied.

 

Brandon himself has spoken about Returning both ways: as Divine Breath acting like Preservation's Investiture did with Kelsier, sticking them and making them persist. That it heals body (Physical), mind (Cognitive) and soul (Spiritual). Which doesn't really preclude the Vasher's interpretation/observation. But he's also compared it to the Lifeless. So, he's probably sticking with both interpretations are valid here.

Heck, Vasher made me wonder if she made them (the Cognitive self) choose whether or not to Return but let them pass on either way and then used her Divine Breath.

Edited by Honorless
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On 10/13/2020 at 9:22 AM, Karger said:

If has five types I guess.  Zahel didn't know what spren were when he made that system.  Type one is actually a better description of spren then returned.  I personally think he should have just called spen zeroth type entities.

Could it not be that he is saying that returned are actually lifeless? We have glimpses of Clod showing more than just obedience. Almost Emotion. And jewels seems to think that yesteel might be able to recover some of Clod’s memories or at least something. Could a lifeless made from a divine breath just also get consciousness and other stuff? I wouldn’t rule out the 4 categories yet. All we know is that Zahel reclassified which category he himself falls into. Right?

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5 hours ago, RadiantInBlack said:

Could a lifeless made from a divine breath just also get consciousness and other stuff?

Brrandon has stated lifeless are more self aware then most give credit for.  Make of this what you will.

Edited by Karger
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