Weird idea about Thaidakar's identity (containing major Mistborn and minor Warbreaker spoilers)

[Erklitt]

This thread by @Toaster Retribution about Sebarial possibly being Thaidakar (an idea I quite liked) made me think on possibilities. 

And in this thread

@Nightweaver posited Thaidakar might be Yesteel from Warbreaker, who was the inventor of ichor alcohol which could be considered 'blood for the lifeless' -> 'Ghostbloods'. That triggered me thinking that - whether this particular theory was correct or not - that the name of the group might actually be worth thinking about.

Well, 'ghosts' had me thinking about Cognitive Shadows. And then it hit:

A Cognitive Shadow who is known for his cunning and mysterious ulterior motives? Who might care about power and transferring it between worlds? A master manipulator on a cosmic scale?

How about KELSIER??
 

I have to admit, 'Secret History' is NOT among my favorite BS books, nor is Mistborn era 2. My recollection of specifics is rather vague. And yet I have an overpowering feeling Kelsier might just be the perfect fit for Thaidakar. Those of you who are better versed in Kelsier's post-mortem development, what do you think? 

 

[HipsterStick]

This would be fascinating. Furthermore, it would set Kelsier up to be a major Cosmere player, and I would love to see more of Kel in the coming days.

I do have a few concerns though. First, the Ghostbloods do feel- well, they feel a little bit villainous. Or maybe a lot a bit villainous- I haven’t decided yet. Now, Kel isn’t exactly a goody two-shoes guy, but I don’t think he’s an outright villain as well. So unless the Ghostbloods turn out to be really unscrupulous heroes, I hesitate to say that Kelsier is Thaidakar. 

Second, I don’t think the Ghostbloods possess the same values or ideology as Kelsier. Kelsier was a thief, but he was motivated far more by a desire to ‘stick it to the man’ than by a desire to  acquire wealth. This character trait was carried to its culmination in his death, which he orchestrated in such a way as to create a religion and a movement in active opposition to the Lord Ruler and the Steel Ministry. The Ghostbloods don’t seem to possess the same megalomania- they’re a financial/economic organization, motivated more by a desire for power in and of itself than by a desire for power preceding a purpose. In short- Kelsier inspires, the Ghostbloods transact.

Hard to argue on the manipulation points though. Kel is very good at that.

[Erklitt]

I agree with a lot of what you say. It was a long shot from the start, and you had me doubting for a while whether it wasn't really quite impossible. Yet, I still wonder, and this is why:  

8 hours ago, HipsterStick said:

Kelsier was a thief, but he was motivated far more by a desire to ‘stick it to the man’ than by a desire to  acquire wealth.

I agree he wanted to ‘stick it to the man’. And I've checked the endings of SH and BoM again: the last we saw of him was him trying to help the Southerners on Scadrial. I'm sure he'd jump at any chance of getting off-world resources for them. 

But he wouldn't be too particular about the means employed, and he never was adverse to a 'side effect' of gaining wealth, like when he hoped for the Lord Ruler's atium stores. If he can help the Southerners and make a profit into the bargain, he won't say no. 

Even his self-sacrifice wasn't entirely altruistic. You said it yourself: he's a Megalomaniac. He'd rather be revered as a martyr then lose the game and end up in oblivion. The same trait showed when he refused to go Beyond even after Scadrial seemed - as far as he knew at the time - saved. He's still determined to conquer death rather than be reunited with Mare. (That, by the way, was a major disappointment for me when I first read it.) Kelsier is not a bad man, but one who can't let go and will use any means to reach his (in itself worthy) goal.

8 hours ago, HipsterStick said:

In short- Kelsier inspires, the Ghostbloods transact.

For a successful enterprise, you need both. It is true that in FE he chose 'good' people for a reason. However, for a transplanetary operation, there may not be much choice, you work with whom you find. And it's not easy to oversee teams who operate on other worlds. Communication of some kind must be possible, as evidenced by Hoid's letters (sent and received), but it's probably not quite as easy as using a spanreed.

All in all, though Mraize is certainly less scrupulous than Kelsier, I'm not sure K. would refuse to work with M. and others like him. And we still don't know Mraize's goals are evil: he himself seems to think that once Shallan knows all about them she cannot but agree. 

It still remains a very long shot, I don't deny that!
 

[Infinity Sliver]

Him been Kelsier could also explain why Iyatil would be willing to work for the Ghostbloods since he's like a god to the southern Scadrial people

[+robardin]

Yeah, I've seen Kelsier mentioned as Head Ghostblood before - and have thought of it myself - it makes sense except for the fact that apparently, WoB being quite firm on this point, Ghost Kelsier (even the Soverign Edition) cannot leave Scadrial - at least not via the Cognitive Realm. So he'd be doing quite a lot of masterminding of events on Roshar from quite afar.

Until that "ichor-alcohol" link to "ghost-blood" was made, I would have said Kelsier was the #1 suspect.

Now... There's another game in town.

[Kingsdaughter613]

18 hours ago, robardin said:

Yeah, I've seen Kelsier mentioned as Head Ghostblood before - and have thought of it myself - it makes sense except for the fact that apparently, WoB being quite firm on this point, Ghost Kelsier (even the Soverign Edition) cannot leave Scadrial - at least not via the Cognitive Realm. So he'd be doing quite a lot of masterminding of events on Roshar from quite afar.

Until that "ichor-alcohol" link to "ghost-blood" was made, I would have said Kelsier was the #1 suspect.

Now... There's another game in town.

When asked about Kell leaving Scadrial, we were told that having a body helps. He was not a world hopper at the end of SH. BoM is a little more ambiguous, as he’s had 300 years to figure it out... and he has a body.

Brandon has said that we haven’t SEEN Kell off world, and that it would be difficult for him to leave because he’s kind of like a Spren. But the Ghostbloods may have figured out the answer to that problem... and we haven’t SEEN Thaidakar either.

Questioner

Did Kelsier leave Scadrial when he went to the Ire fortress?

Brandon Sanderson

I consider him not having left, but being very close to leaving. He couldn't have actually gotten off-planet with the way that he existed at that point. So, no, he did not leave Scadrial. At least the sphere of influence of Scadrial.

Questioner

So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

Questioner

So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

Brandon Sanderson

A body is helpful. Depends on what their ties are and things like that.  Not always, but yeah.

Questioner

Have we seen Kelsier outside of Mistborn yet, and will we see him outside of Mistborn?

Brandon Sanderson

No you have not. And RAFO, but realize, he is-- The way Investiture works, you would consider him similar to how you would consider a spren. It's gonna be hard for him to get off-world.

Questioner

It also means that he can still-- He gets kind of close, he gets really close--

Brandon Sanderson

I considered him still--

Questioner

Still on this side.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, but he got close to the line. But I would say he did not get off [Scadrial].

Questioner

So it's gonna be hard.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

 

The real reason this has a possibility is because the Ghostbloods function a LOT like Kell’s crew.  
 

He’s also the one most likely to come up with this from the characters we know. This feels like one of Kell’s gammons, just like the whole Sovereign thing did.

 

The third thing is that we are specifically told that Thaidakar is a title, NOT a name, but it is often used as though it was a name, as in Master Thaidakar. And Kell has two different titles that are used as names: Survivor and the Sovereign. Particularly the former; Lord Survivor is a fairly common epithet. That’s honestly the thing that makes me most suspicious. Other characters use false names, but only on Scadrial have we seen epithets act as names - and only Kell has had that odd combination of title + epithet used regularly. 
 

The fact that only one character has used that particular combination regularly, all other character come from his world, and it was SPECIFICALLY pointed out to us - that’s suspicious. 
 

The Returned do do something similar (see Warbreaker the Peaceful) and the direct connections between Roshar and Nalthis makes a Returned a more likely culprit. But it IS a very suspicious phrasing.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/16/2020 at 0:26 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

only on Scadrial have we seen epithets act as names

Blackthorn? Mink? (Not sure if those count or are just plain nicknames)

On 10/16/2020 at 0:26 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

The real reason this has a possibility is because the Ghostbloods function a LOT like Kell’s crew.  

Do they? Can you elaborate?

Edited October 28, 2020 by beewall

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, beewall said:

Blackthorn? Mink? (Not sure if those count or are just plain nicknames)

Do they? Can you elaborate?

No one calls Dalinar ‘Brightlord Blackthorn’. Blackthorn and Mink are titles, not nicknames. On the other hand, Scadrial gives us two titles, with the latter acting as a name. It’s not that it isn’t used elsewhere; I just haven’t seen the convention utilized.

 

I don’t know that I can explain it. It’s just the feeling I got from the GB was very like Kell’s crew. They FEEL similar, if that makes sense. And WoB does say that TFE Kell would join and take over the GBs, so I think I’m probably right about that feeling.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

No one calls Dalinar ‘Brightlord Blackthorn’. Blackthorn and Mink are titles, not nicknames. On the other hand, Scadrial gives us two titles, with the latter acting as a name. It’s not that it isn’t used elsewhere; I just haven’t seen the convention utilized.

Ah okay, thanks for the clarification there. In that case, yeah, Scadrial's the only place I can think of us seeing it.

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t know that I can explain it. It’s just the feeling I got from the GB was very like Kell’s crew. They FEEL similar, if that makes sense. And WoB does say that TFE Kell would join and take over the GBs, so I think I’m probably right about that feeling.

Eh, I'd disagree greatly. Kelsier's crew didn't exactly have a "if you kill one of us, we'll let you in because that's awesome" policy like iirc happened with Shallan and Tyn. That's a rather large difference.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 minutes ago, beewall said:

Ah okay, thanks for the clarification there. In that case, yeah, Scadrial's the only place I can think of us seeing it.

Eh, I'd disagree greatly. Kelsier's crew didn't exactly have a "if you kill one of us, we'll let you in because that's awesome" policy like iirc happened with Shallan and Tyn. That's a rather large difference.

They note that that’s not exactly encouraged. Also that Tyn wasn’t a GB yet, just a hopeful. And Kell was perfectly okay with killing a member of the Rebellion to make a point. (Demoux disagreed.) He later was willing to risk Elend’s death to avoid having Ruin freed. He also risked Spook and Marsh later. Not even counting the hundreds (thousands?) who died because he was conning Ruin. And he was probably behind Spook’s ideas about spiking the dying...

So yes, I think Kell would be okay with it, but the circumstances would be important. And it would be different for ‘full’ crew versus ‘periphery members’ versus ‘wannabes’. I doubt such behavior occurs often within the group itself. Sacrificing another member for the good of the whole is okay though.

And, again, WoB does say that Kell would join the Ghostbloods. They just feel like a team he would run.

[Erklitt]

49 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

They just feel like a team he would run.

You beat me to it - I was just writing along similar lines. So I leave out most of my argument and just add two points:

1. I do believe Kelsier might hold his crew on a tighter leash about killing aspiring but unproven members (see point 3 in my answer to beewall). But that's a minor point compared to the bigger picture.

2. Right now Shallan is the one still stalling (by not getting the tattoo) about the full membership she's been offerered. Under these circumstances I view Mraize as having been more then fair towards her so far. 

1 hour ago, beewall said:

Kelsier's crew didn't exactly have a "if you kill one of us, we'll let you in because that's awesome" policy like iirc happened with Shallan and Tyn.

No it didn't. Here are the relevant scenes - I believe you're misremembering one of them:

1. Shallan killed Tyn in self-defense after Tyn found out that Shallan was really Shallan and tried to kill her. 

2. Mraize asked Shallan for Tyn's whereabouts as a test, which Shallan passed by not disclosing them. (At least as seen by Mraize at the time - he didn't know that Tyn was already dead.)

3. When Shallan applied for membership, Mraize told her it wasn't that easy and until she'd won more trust, he wouldn't protect her from other members. He made it clear however that once she had won that trust and with that full membership: 'we protect our own'. 

[+Bliev]

Although I like this theory, I think we're probably all getting a little punch-drunk with our cosmere connections...this quest is going to be a central one to this book, and it's hard to imagine that Brandon will make a major character from Mistborn a major character in SA in Book 4. Plus, Mraize implies to shallan that she might recognize Thaidakar, and neither the reader nor Shallan should recognize Kelsier. 

I admit that the idea that a cog shadow (investiture)  that escaped a planet would be the person who knows the secret to get investiture off planet is a solid one. But I don't think the timeline squares, anyways. BOM is probably after or concurrent with ROW. I don't think Kelsier could have been spending time on Roshar while he's also workingwiththe Southern Scadrians. 

 

   

[Erklitt]

You're probably right of course. It's just fun speculating, and this didn't seem completely impossible to me. So one question:

14 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Mraize implies to shallan that she might recognize Thaidakar,

I missed that. That would indeed nail the coffin on this theory, could you please point me to where he does that?

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Although I like this theory, I think we're probably all getting a little punch-drunk with our cosmere connections...this quest is going to be a central one to this book, and it's hard to imagine that Brandon will make a major character from Mistborn a major character in SA in Book 4. Plus, Mraize implies to shallan that she might recognize Thaidakar, and neither the reader nor Shallan should recognize Kelsier. 

I admit that the idea that a cog shadow (investiture)  that escaped a planet would be the person who knows the secret to get investiture off planet is a solid one. But I don't think the timeline squares, anyways. BOM is probably after or concurrent with ROW. I don't think Kelsier could have been spending time on Roshar while he's also workingwiththe Southern Scadrians. 

 

   

Kell left South Scadrial centuries before BoM (which takes place between SA5&6). So centuries before SA.

Shallan is implied to be able to recognize Restares, not Thaidakar. Of course, she could have met a one eyed, Shin-looking, blond years before.

I think the Ghostbloods are more being setup for SA 6-10, so having a major offworld character being behind them makes sense. Especially since Mistborn Era 3 is supposed to be written alongside those books, and Era 3 requires the Elantris sequels to be written, which heavily implies some crossover.

25 minutes ago, Erklitt said:

You beat me to it - I was just writing along similar lines. So I leave out most of my argument and just add two points:

1. I do believe Kelsier might hold his crew on a tighter leash about killing aspiring but unproven members (see point 3 in my answer to beewall). But that's a minor point compared to the bigger picture.

2. Right now Shallan is the one still stalling (by not getting the tattoo) about the full membership she's been offerered. Under these circumstances I view Mraize as having been more then fair towards her so far. 

No it didn't. Here are the relevant scenes - I believe you're misremembering one of them:

1. Shallan killed Tyn in self-defense after Tyn found out that Shallan was really Shallan and tried to kill her. 

2. Mraize asked Shallan for Tyn's whereabouts as a test, which Shallan passed by not disclosing them. (At least as seen by Mraize at the time - he didn't know that Tyn was already dead.)

3. When Shallan applied for membership, Mraize told her it wasn't that easy and until she'd won more trust, he wouldn't protect her from other members. He made it clear however that once she had won that trust and with that full membership: 'we protect our own'. 

Regarding 1: That’s why I said it depends heavily on circumstances. Self-defense is fine. Personal power is almost certainly a no. For the greater good is allowed, but not preferable and should be avoided if possible. (Kell was willing to directly seriously risk the lives of multiple people he cared about for a greater goal.)
 

Yes, Shallan is definitely the one stalling and Mraize is being very fair. I wish she’d hurry up so we can MEET Thaidakar already.

 

As an aside, I don’t necessarily agree that Kell is running the Ghostbloods. Just that he feels like the person who WOULD given the opportunity. (Which WoB confirms.) Of the characters we’ve met in canon, he’s the one who’s personality is most suited to Thaidakar’s role. Which doesn’t mean Thaidakar is Kell, just that he has a similar personality.

[+Bliev]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Shallan is implied to be able to recognize Restares, not Thaidakar. Of course, she could have met a one eyed, Shin-looking, blond years before.

 

Excellent point. My bad! I apparently have been up for too long! @Erklitt this also answers your question. 

But it does present a different issue. 

If Highly Invested Cog Shadow Kelsier made it off world, why do you need Restares for the secret to get stormlight off world? In 2018, Brandon said that Kelsier did not know how to do this anyways:

Quote

 

Questioner

Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?

Brandon Sanderson

Kelsier is bound to Scadrial the same way that a spren is bound to Roshar, because of the level of Investiture and the type and the way it happened. It is possible to get off-world but he does not know what it is.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10799

[Kingsdaughter613]

48 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Excellent point. My bad! I apparently have been up for too long! @Erklitt this also answers your question. 

But it does present a different issue. 

If Highly Invested Cog Shadow Kelsier made it off world, why do you need Restares for the secret to get stormlight off world? In 2018, Brandon said that Kelsier did not know how to do this anyways:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360-legion-release-party/#e10799

Note that Brandon did not say no. He dodged around the question.

It’s possible someone who did know helped Kelsier, or gave him the means but not the secret. Or Kell managed it without knowing how, due to misunderstanding the problem.

Specifically, we have a WoB that having a body would help Kell worldhop. If Kell mistakenly thought not having a body was the issue, got one, then went worldhopping, he could ‘not know’ the process for getting a CS offworld, while accidentally managing it anyway.

It’s possible that the two processes (CS offworld and Stormlight offworld) are unrelated.

It’s also possible that this answer was in reference to SH Kell, who definitely did not worldhop. I’d want to see the context of the question.

[+Bliev]

21 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It’s also possible that this answer was in reference to SH Kell, who definitely did not worldhop. I’d want to see the context of the question.

The context seems to be asked in the present tense. It was asked in 2018 as "Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?" which seems fairly straightforward. I suppose you're right that he didn't say "no" specifically, but I think his answer is pretty clearly a negative and not meant to be squirrelly like he sometimes is. He answers that " It is possible to get off-world but he does not know what it is," which feels pretty definitive that he doesn't know how to worldhop.

You're right that Brandon said in 2016 that a body would be helpful if one wanted to worldhop, but it was a more general  answer after he pretty specifically threw cold water on Kelsier's ability to leave Scadrial.  Though I think it's pretty clear on both of these WOBs that YMMV. Definitely different ways to interpret it.

Regardless, although I'd love to see Kel more, I doubt that Brandon will put such an important plot point in the hands of an unknown character dropped in from another planet that only a subset of readers would understand. It seems--unlikely--at this stage. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's a bread crumb trail that we won't find out about until the back 5, where the cosmere interconnections will be more fleshed out, but I doubt it. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 minutes ago, Bliev said:

The context seems to be asked in the present tense. It was asked in 2018 as "Has Kelsier done any worldhopping?" which seems fairly straightforward. I suppose you're right that he didn't say "no" specifically, but I think his answer is pretty clearly a negative and not meant to be squirrelly like he sometimes is. He answers that " It is possible to get off-world but he does not know what it is," which feels pretty definitive that he doesn't know how to worldhop.

You're right that Brandon said in 2016 that a body would be helpful if one wanted to worldhop, but it was a more general  answer after he pretty specifically threw cold water on Kelsier's ability to leave Scadrial.  Though I think it's pretty clear on both of these WOBs that YMMV. Definitely different ways to interpret it.

Regardless, although I'd love to see Kel more, I doubt that Brandon will put such an important plot point in the hands of an unknown character dropped in from another planet that only a subset of readers would understand. It seems--unlikely--at this stage. Maybe it's not. Maybe it's a bread crumb trail that we won't find out about until the back 5, where the cosmere interconnections will be more fleshed out, but I doubt it. 

Prefacing this by noting that I don’t think Thaidakar is Kell, so much as I think he either has a similar personality or has been heavily influenced by someone who does. I would not be surprised if he is (okay, maybe a little surprised), but I’m not  expecting him to be. I do think he’s a non-Rosharan, and might, due to the naming conventions, be a Scadrian.
 

I actually suspect Spook, who lived a very long time, who should have no worldhopping issues, and who has been heavily influenced by Kell. Brandon has also RAFOd most questions about Spook.

The real reason I think Kell has worldhopped is due to two different things in Era 2. The lesser one is Kell leaving the South, which, from how it was phrased, implied that he was going a bit further than Northern Scadrial.

The bigger one is Saze indicating that he hasn’t spoken with Kell in a long time. That one is rather more indicative of something. There’s also Marsh going South (per WoB) as opposed to confronting his brother. And Saze sending him, instead of talking to Kell. So either Kell isn’t available, or his relationships with the other two have been so damaged that they can’t/won’t talk to him. Or he is refusing to talk to them (more likely) and has found a way to hide from both (possible). Either way, something weird is going on there.

Brandon has also been rather misleading when it comes to Kell. First he assured us that Kell was dead and not coming back. Then he admitted this wasn’t true, and Kell was still around. He hinted once about Kell returning via Hemalurgy, in a random, non-canon, WoT crossover story. It was a genuine shock to many of us when Kell came back physically, despite knowing he was a ghost for years. 
 

Kell doesn’t do what Brandon wants. He does what he wants, and drags his creator along for the ride. If you’re a writer, you probably know what I mean. (One of my characters decided he was ending an alliance with another character much earlier than planned. Cue me rewriting my outline.) So... if Brandon doesn’t give a straight no, I’m questioning. And even if he does, I don’t trust Kell not to disobey and do it anyway.

[+Harrycrapper]

If Kelsier is the leader of the Ghostbloods, he could have sent them there to try to solve the problem of getting a cognitive shadow off world. On Scadrial, Kelsier is likely the only cognitive shadow and any experimentation would have to be done on him. That means any on world research into the issue is going to monopolize a lot of his time and could pose a considerable risk. Nalthian cognitive shadows don't have the same level of difficulty getting off world, so they won't be of much use solving the problem. As far as we have seen, the Threnody cognitive shadows are nearly mindless and quite violent, so not good test subjects. Meanwhile on Roshar, there's a bunch of cognitive shadows and other entities with the same problem as Kelsier. Even if he's not involved with the Ghostbloods, he's likely interested in the same thing that they are trying to accomplish on Roshar. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

So... I guess we can put this in the ‘not so crazy after all’ file...

Edited November 18, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[nbozb]

ROW End Spoilers

Spoiler

I’m pretty sure that you’re right! I mean, the whole Lord of Scars thing, the Hoid beating him up thing, the whole only-shows-up-in-avatar thing, and the WOBs that say that Kell would join the Ghostbloods and be their leader in a year...... 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

Yeah... who would have thought this crazy theory would have turned out to be RIGHT? I mean, it always FELT like something Kell would do, but I still can’t quite believe Brandon actually did it!

[Rainier]

On 10/12/2020 at 9:35 PM, HipsterStick said:

Kelsier was a thief, but he was motivated far more by a desire to ‘stick it to the man’ than by a desire to  acquire wealth.

Who is 'the man' in this circumstance? Who else could it be but the 16 shards?

[Kingsdaughter613]

10 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Who is 'the man' in this circumstance? Who else could it be but the 16 shards?

This is my theory. Kell is the more-mortal version of Odium. He wants to ensure the other shards don’t interfere with Scadrial; how better than to ensure there are none to do so?

[lookingglass]

Well, this might explain why Hoid was so happy after giving the coin containing Kelsier's memory to Wax. It was payback for all the shenanigans Kelsier has been up to as Thaidakar on Roshar, especially since era 2 is after Stormlight 5. Brandon did say Hoid was happiest when he was getting away with something