Kelsier vs. Wax. 1v1.

[LukeWasTaken]

Okay, Kelsier from TFE with access to the 8 basic metals and gold, Wax with access to steel, his bracers at the beginning of AOL, and Vindication with all 8 bullets. Who would win?
as a sidenote, neither one knows the others powers. and Kel doesn't know about guns.
EDIT: Lets go with the outside of kredik shaw, that is a neat location to fight at I think for our two steel users.

Kelsier Strengths:
-Experience Fighting Mistings
-Mistborn
-Expert of his time in Iron and Steel usage (see his fight with the Inquisitor in TFE.)

Wax Strengths:
-Most likely a steel savant, Which I percieve as his ability to push lightly on all things around him (see steel bubble)
-Lifetime experience of using allomancy
-Feruchemical Iron to control his weight
-Experience Fighting Mistings (And some Twinborns)|
-EDIT: Remember that Wax does have bullets specifically for allomancers in Vindication.

Kelsier Weaknesses:
-Only 2-3 Years of being a Mistborn
-Can be brash and Impulsive

Wax Weaknesses:
-Not expecting a Mistborn (There hasn't been one since the catacendre besides spook)
-No access to Pewter. That is a big oof when fighting our man Kelsier.

Thoughts? Anything I missed above?

Edited October 12, 2020 by HoidWasTaken

[Kingsdaughter613]

Wax - Kell doesn’t know about Aluminum and has never faced a gun. Assuming Kell survives the initial clash though, Wax does not survive the night and Kell gets an interesting weapon to study.

[Aspiring Writer]

What's the environment? i feel that's important in a fight like this, where both opponents have access to steel.

[Frustration]

The gun is just a slightly better coin, something Kel has dealt with plenty of times, no way Wax wins.

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The gun is just a slightly better coin, something Kel has dealt with plenty of times, no way Wax wins.

Coins aren't as fast and can be pushed away. A bullet is very fast for him to react to and harder to push away enough.

[LukeWasTaken]

10 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

What's the environment? i feel that's important in a fight like this, where both opponents have access to steel.

I think Kredik shaw would be good, so I added that up above.

 

9 minutes ago, Frustration said:

The gun is just a slightly better coin, something Kel has dealt with plenty of times, no way Wax wins.

Remember that Kelsier has not dealt with objects going that fast, while Wax has spent decades(?) out in the roughs fighting other allomancers. Kelsier also only has 2-3 years of experience, Wax has a lifetime.

[Retrac]

I'm going to say that if Wax got the jump on Kelsier then Wax would win. But otherwise Kelsier.

[Frustration]

28 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Coins aren't as fast and can be pushed away. A bullet is very fast for him to react to and harder to push away enough.

Fast enough to kill like one.

[Iarwainiel I]

I take it you're talking about Kelsier from The Final Empire, right? not Secret History, etc.?

IIRC there's a WoB that Kelsier is very tough to beat because he "fights dirty" (has no trouble breaking the rules)., and for that reason I'd have to go with Kelsier.

With Bronze, Kelsier would always know where Wax was. He could also use Zinc and Brass to confuse Wax emotionally. Those are solid advantages.

This is a great thread! Interesting to think about!

[Aspiring Writer]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Fast enough to kill like one.

Yeah, it kills like one, but bullets do have an edge in the way they can overwhelm someone with steel, something we know coins can't do because Mistborn consistently push coins away from them in fights.

[LukeWasTaken]

1 hour ago, Iarwainiel said:

I take it you're talking about Kelsier from The Final Empire, right? not Secret History, etc.?

IIRC there's a WoB that Kelsier is very tough to beat because he "fights dirty" (has no trouble breaking the rules)., and for that reason I'd have to go with Kelsier.

With Bronze, Kelsier would always know where Wax was. He could also use Zinc and Brass to confuse Wax emotionally. Those are solid advantages.

This is a great thread! Interesting to think about!

You make some good points. to Clarify yes, it is Kelsier from TFE, I'll edit that in. In regards to the fighting dirty, yeah I have seen that (Specifically for fighting Kaladin and a fistfight out of everyone) So it seems pretty safe to say that Kelsier would win. Wax would have need to pull something crazy to pull out ahead.

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, HoidWasTaken said:

I think Kredik shaw would be good, so I added that up above.

 

Remember that Kelsier has not dealt with objects going that fast, while Wax has spent decades(?) out in the roughs fighting other allomancers. Kelsier also only has 2-3 years of experience, Wax has a lifetime.

If Kredrik Shaw, then Kelsier, Home court advantage, terrain is great for his dirty tactics, platy of places where Wax can't shoot him, and Wax can't waste any bullets.

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Coins aren't as fast and can be pushed away. A bullet is very fast for him to react to and harder to push away enough.

Right, but he'll see the gun and identify it as a weapon unknown to him. Vindication is not immune to pulling/pushing Is Wax wearing an aluminium hat? If not, he will be soothed so hard he would not care about being on fire.

[LukeWasTaken]

Oh yeah! I almost forgot to bring up the point that Wax does have bullets made specifically for fighting allomancers such as the coinshot and lurcher bullets.

[Iarwainiel I]

1 hour ago, HoidWasTaken said:

Oh yeah! I almost forgot to bring up the point that Wax does have bullets made specifically for fighting allomancers such as the coinshot and lurcher bullets.

Great point! Wax would not be easy to beat & it's not impossible that he would win, especially with so much more being known about Metals and the magic system overall in that era.

(I'm hoping that Wax will actually meet Kelsier in W&W4, and that he'll meet Marsh too. Of course if that happens in the story they'd be on the same side, not fighting each other. But it's still fun to theorize about.)

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 hour ago, Iarwainiel said:

Great point! Wax would not be easy to beat & it's not impossible that he would win, especially with so much more being known about Metals and the magic system overall in that era.

(I'm hoping that Wax will actually meet Kelsier in W&W4, and that he'll meet Marsh too. Of course if that happens in the story they'd be on the same side, not fighting each other. But it's still fun to theorize about.)

Seeing as Kell is either Fullborn or can fake it really well, plus 300+ years of experience, that’s likely to a curbstomp battle if it happened.

 

I think Kell loses the first time he faces a gun. He just... has no idea what it is. He can’t take a precautions. And TFE Kell doesn’t know aluminum can’t be pushed - and it doesn’t have Atium shadows either. Not to mention, he’s burning tin so the sound completely destroys his ear drums.
 

Pewter enhanced reflexes may allow Kell to survive the first shot relatively intact at which point the situation changes drastically. NOW he knows that 1: this is a projectile weapon and 2: it shoots something fast and un-pushable and 3: this isn’t something he’s facing without more information. He gets out of there FAST.

Wax gets knifed in the back later that night, and Saze is promptly set to reverse engineering the strange weapon. Two weeks later, when Kell can hear again, he hires a blacksmith. 
 

The Rebellion is considerably more successful with guns.

Edited October 12, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[+robardin]

On 10/11/2020 at 10:26 PM, Retrac said:

I'm going to say that if Wax got the jump on Kelsier then Wax would win. But otherwise Kelsier.

I was going to write something longer, but basically to that effect.

On 10/12/2020 at 1:11 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think Kell loses the first time he faces a gun. He just... has no idea what it is. He can’t take a precautions. And TFE Kell doesn’t know aluminum can’t be pushed - and it doesn’t have Atium shadows either. Not to mention, he’s burning tin so the sound completely destroys his ear drums.

Pewter enhanced reflexes may allow Kell to survive the first shot relatively intact at which point the situation changes drastically.

And the something longer was basically to that effect :D.

If Wax is prepared - not specially prepared, just generally Era 2 prepared - with Vindication to fight an Allomancer, he'll have special rounds for Thugs, Tineyes, and likely, aluminum bullets (as well as the hollow and ceramic tipped bullets for Coinshots). He's also well-practiced in using his Allomancy to Steelpush a bullet after it's fired, to give it even more oomph. TFE era Kelsier would have no idea such a projectile is possible, and would likely get plugged a few times before he got away to think about things. And Wax has had plenty of access by now to full-on aluminum guns and ammo rounds.

If Wax manages to take Kelsier down with a few rounds, he wins. (The bit about the gunfire likely being Bad Juju for a Tineye is on point, too.)

BUT, if Kelsier burns pewter and steel and flies away and recovers, and thinks over about the implications of what he just faced, and knows where to find Wax... Wax is a dead man walking.

Here's an interesting side question: TFE Kelsier would likely have atium on him. But, he still wouldn't know about guns and aluminum bullets. Let's say he saw Wax coming at him with known or suspected lethal intent, and he could sense with A-bronze that he was a Coinshot, and even took the precaution of burning some atium just in case such a confident-looking Allomancer coming after The Survivor of Hathsin (a known Mistborn) might be a Mistborn himself... And sees Wax's atium shadow pulling out a big metal thingy (aluminum gun). Would atium also give him the information that that is actually really dangerous? Or that his Steelsight wouldn't see any lines to it, when it was pulled in the near future?

Edited October 17, 2020 by robardin

[NameIess]

If Kelsier is too arrogant, Wax just shoots him in the face before he has time to react. I doubt that would happen, but it's a possibility.

[Kingsdaughter613]

6 hours ago, robardin said:

I was going to write something longer, but basically to that effect.

And the something longer was basically to that effect :D.

If Wax is prepared - not specially prepared, just generally Era 2 prepared - with Vindication to fight an Allomancer, he'll have special rounds for Thugs, Tineyes, and likely, aluminum bullets (as well as the hollow and ceramic tipped bullets for Coinshots). He's also well-practiced in using his Allomancy to Steelpush a bullet after it's fired, to give it even more oomph. TFE era Kelsier would have no idea such a projectile is possible, and would likely get plugged a few times before he got away to think about things. And Wax has had plenty of access by now to full-on aluminum guns and ammo rounds.

If Wax manages to take Kelsier down with a few rounds, he wins. (The bit about the gunfire likely being Bad Juju for a Tineye is on point, too.)

BUT, if Kelsier burns pewter and steel and flies away and recovers, and thinks over about the implications of what he just faced, and knows where to find Wax... Wax is a dead man walking.

Here's an interesting side question: TFE Kelsier would likely have atium on him. But, he still wouldn't know about guns and aluminum bullets. Let's say he saw Wax coming at him with known or suspected lethal intent, and he could sense with A-bronze that he was a Coinshot, and even took the precaution of burning some atium just in case such a confident-looking Allomancer coming after The Survivor of Hathsin (a known Mistborn) might be a Mistborn himself... And sees Wax's atium shadow pulling out a big metal thingy (aluminum gun). Would atium also give him the information that that is actually really dangerous? Or that his Steelsight wouldn't see any lines to it, when it was pulled in the near future?

If he sees Wax pulling a gun, he still has no idea what it does. He’s never seen a weapon like it. He doesn’t see a bullet, because it’s aluminum, so he assumes it’s a blunt weapon. Now, can Wax shoot before Kell pulls the gun from his hand? I think so.

(Weirdly, this is a situation where Electrum is better than Atium.)

Wax gets ONE shot. After that Kell has pulled/pushed the gun from his hand and escaped. 

I think Kell gets grazed, not killed. He’s trying to push/pull the weapon, so Wax’s aim is slightly off, and Kell is primed to dodge and instinct has him doing so at the ear-drum bursting noise. Bullets are fast though, so I think he does get hit.

He flees because his eardrums just burst, more than due to the bullet itself. Waits for his head to stop ringing, circles back, kills Wax, and takes the gun.

 

To add to this... Wax is using an aluminum bullet, because he knows who he’s facing. He’s not aiming to kill because, well, he KNOWS WHO HE’S FACING. He’s hoping to get home without wrecking the timeline TOO badly...

[+Bzhydack]

Every first fight Wax would win, if Kel doesnt have atium. Even without guns and aluminum/mistbuster amunition he will be superior in any Coinshot fight - has more expirience, is able to Push more precisly (he was able to push just a primer of bullet) and more important - can control his weight. We know that Kel was most experienced in using Steel and Iron, he wasnt very good in rioting/soothing, also Wax is very stable and very self-aware (at this point). Kel probably will be sure that his Iron + Steel + Pewter can overcome one Coinshot, but as Crasher Wax can Push harder and fly faster, being also more efficient. Kel never encounter Twinborn before, he dont even know this is possible. Also, in open fight Wax will never allow Kel to close enough for meele, and this is when Atium is most usefull, coinshot duel can be long, and Atium is burning fast - so assuming that Wax will be able to dodge him long enough for Kel to burn out his Atium. After that (of course, he dont know when this happens) he can even risk meele fight - his ability to change weight can be very usefull, he is faster being lighter or he can hit harder and is more resistant (undirectly, because he is more stable so more of force of hit is redirected into attacker via reaction - of course, we are only talking about fists/blunt weapons) being heavier.

Also, I dont think Kel will be able to run from Wax. As I mentioned, Wax is faster in the air.

[Kingsdaughter613]

2 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Every first fight Wax would win, if Kel doesnt have atium. Even without guns and aluminum/mistbuster amunition he will be superior in any Coinshot fight - has more expirience, is able to Push more precisly (he was able to push just a primer of bullet) and more important - can control his weight. We know that Kel was most experienced in using Steel and Iron, he wasnt very good in rioting/soothing, also Wax is very stable and very self-aware (at this point). Kel probably will be sure that his Iron + Steel + Pewter can overcome one Coinshot, but as Crasher Wax can Push harder and fly faster, being also more efficient. Kel never encounter Twinborn before, he dont even know this is possible. Also, in open fight Wax will never allow Kel to close enough for meele, and this is when Atium is most usefull, coinshot duel can be long, and Atium is burning fast - so assuming that Wax will be able to dodge him long enough for Kel to burn out his Atium. After that (of course, he dont know when this happens) he can even risk meele fight - his ability to change weight can be very usefull, he is faster being lighter or he can hit harder and is more resistant (undirectly, because he is more stable so more of force of hit is redirected into attacker via reaction - of course, we are only talking about fists/blunt weapons) being heavier.

Also, I dont think Kel will be able to run from Wax. As I mentioned, Wax is faster in the air.

Kell is sneakier though, and willing to things Wax isn’t. He’s spent most of his life hiding and giving people the slip. Remember: he survived a VERY long time without allomancy.

He gets away, as long as he can survive the first bullet, and Wax dies shortly thereafter.

[+Bzhydack]

2 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He gets away, as long as he can survive the first bullet, and Wax dies shortly thereafter.

Not so sure.

Wax also is very expirenced in "survival" - he lived very long in Roughs, mostly under constant threat. Weve even seen how hard to ambush he is. He also is Steel Savant, so even the smallest amoun of metal will warn him.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Not so sure.

Wax also is very expirenced in "survival" - he lived very long in Roughs, mostly under constant threat. Weve even seen how hard to ambush he is. He also is Steel Savant, so even the smallest amoun of metal will warn him.

Kell survived much harsher conditions - without ANY powers. Remember that time he snuck into a noble’s house and murdered seven people, all before he ever snapped? And he didn’t get caught.

 

Kell may not be the better allomancer, but he’s lived and survived under much harsher conditions, with no powers beyond his own wits. He’s a conman first, before everything. If he survives, he gets away.

 

He’s also MUCH more powerful than Wax allomantically. Wax lives at a time when the powers are mostly diluted; Kell was unusually powerful in a time when the powers were stronger.

 

Kell would know not to take metal against a coinshot. He ingests all his metals prior, leaves the rest, uses his coin bag to confuse Wax, and stabs him in the back.

 

Oh, and if Kell knew what a bullet was, he could do the same trick as Wax. We’ve seen him do it with the metal bars.

[LukeWasTaken]

On 10/20/2020 at 9:32 PM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

 

Kell would know not to take metal against a coinshot.

Remember I said neither knows the others powers.

[Kingsdaughter613]

39 minutes ago, HoidWasTaken said:

Remember I said neither knows the others powers.

I’m assuming Wax was burning steel during the fight - and Kell has bronze. The question is: is Kell good enough with bronze to recognize different metals? I think he is, but I could be wrong.