A Case For / A Case Against v2

[Knight of Iron]

Hello everyone here, I am the one and only Knight of Iron. I was active on this site for a few months back in December, I have been on-and-off (more on than off ) lurking on the Shard, mostly because I don't have much to say or contribute. Look forward to getting to meet some of the newer of you.

Anyways, I started this thread I thought was pretty fun in the Stormlight Archive forums, but recently realized that this would be even more fun applied to every character in the cosmere, so...

Introducing A Case For / A Case Against v2 !
It's fairly simple.

Choose a character from the cosmere, good or evil. If the character you choose is evil, then you post a reasonable or silly argument for why they're actually the good guy. Else, you try to prove why a good character is the real villain all along...

If you need ideas I'd recommend you check out some of the ones people came up with last time, where we had cases for Odium, Gaz, Moash and also cases against Kaladin, Jasnah, Honor, Stick, Lift, and Dalinar.

I decided to open this up to all cosmere characters, so have fun! I will be posting some of mine here later. 

[Frustration]

Sadness is actually the good guy because without him WoK is super boring.

[NameIess]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

Sadness is actually the good guy because without him WoK is super boring.

I think you got autocorrected. Kinda makes it even better though.

[Frustration]

Just now, Nameless said:

I think you got autocorrected. Kinda makes it even better though.

You know what I'm keeping it, Kaladin's depression is the protag.

For future readers it was meant to say Sadeas.

[HipsterStick]

For the so-called ‘villains’...
VaraTreledees is just a humble mercenary trying to make a living, whose life and livelihood are ruined by a degenerate hobo that steals his sister’s intellectual property and then kills her.

Gavilar is a pioneering scholar that actively flouts oppressive gender roles and tries his best to restore a dying people’s cultural heritage.

Rashek is a beleaguered chief-of-state that has to deal with a completely inefficient bureaucracy and a buffoonish upper-class whilst maintaining the balance of a fine-tuned labor machine that would cause mass cataclysm if it were to fail.

Ruin is a rebel that refuses to stick with the status quo, and rages against a failed state in an effort to change the world.

Taravangian is good with kids.

And finally...

Cosmere’s Best Boss Odium (TM) works tirelessly to prevent dangerous murderers with delusions of godhood from lording over others like deities. He is a devout conservationist dedicated to wiping out a particularly nasty invasive species in the Rosharan system. He is very cordial and polite, and is an excellent counselor- it’s almost like he can take away your pain! He provides employment opportunities for minorities and individuals of indigenous origin, works to accommodate employees who have mental or physical needs, and is a proud supporter of gender equality- in fact, several of his chief officers are femalen! The health benefits in his organization are incredible, and his life insurance policy is particularly revolutionary. It should also be noted that Odium has a terrific sense of fashion, with White and Gold being quite in vogue.

As for the ‘heroes’...

Syl is a shameless voyeur that has a strange obsession with forcing relationships on her good friends in an attempt to make them happy.

Vin is a convicted robber that once murdered every single one of a paraplegic man’s caretakers. Also, she released an Eldritch abomination hellbent on destroying humanity.

Kelsier started a bloody revolution against a remarkably stable government due to some minor personal grievances he had regarding mistreatment in a government sponsored work place.

Shallan is a pathological liar who actively oppresses poor dark-eyed soldiers by stealing their boots and insulting their families.

Elend used the aftermath of a violent revolution to start a hare-brained political science experiment, and then promptly got butthurt when the assembly voted him out of office; he later scrapped this semblance of democracy for a full-blown dictatorship, in which he held all power.

Spook is a semi-functional tin addict.

Vasher is a man playing a murder-hobo run of Skyrim. Except Skyrim is actually real life. And he really does murder several people; then he starts the fantasy equivalent of the First World War, creates what is basically a sentient tactical nuclear weapon, and dorks around for a few centuries while Hallandren oppresses the Pahn Kal and the Idrian people.

That’s all for now folks!

Spoiler

I really tried to do Adolin, but I couldn’t... same with Moash.

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by HipsterStick

[trav]

Odium tries to help the oppressed natives of Roshar to regain control of their land.

Bluefingers devotes his entirely life to his oppressors to free his fellow Pahn Kahl members from Hallandren.

Moash picked the right side even though it is losing side. the humans are backed by a shard and a cognitive shadow of one. the odds are stacked in their favor. Moash still tries his best to help the rightful owners of Roshar. he is the only truely honorable human left on Roshar.

the only reason Kaladin had second thoughts about letting Elokhar gets killed is because he was losing his powers over it. Kaladin is a sociopath. Kaladin finds out that his side are the baddies and just rolls with it. how anyone can support or like a character like this is beyond me.

Leras cheated Ati in their deal. imprisons him for thousands of years and ultimately helps others to kill him. scumbag Leras.

Vin mercilessly kills the tired and old savior of the world using eldritch magic.

[Kingsdaughter613]

Kelsier is a psychopath and a megalomaniac. He has committed multiple homicides and atrocities. He’s a thief and a conman, and he has several cultures worshipping him as a deity.  He raised a rebellion and took down an empire for revenge - and plan A was to rule it. (He ended up having to go with plan B.) He manipulates a god into making him immortal. He nearly murdered his daughter’s lover. He intentionally allowed thousands of people to die for the sake of a con. He offers immortality to an impressionable youth who looks up to him to convince the boy to study Hemalurgy, all so Kell can return to life. 

The fact that he’s considered a HERO tells you just how good of a conman he is...

[Frustration]

15 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier is a psychopath and a megalomaniac. He has committed multiple homicides and atrocities. He’s a thief and a conman, and he has several cultures worshipping him as a deity.  He raised a rebellion and took down an empire for revenge - and plan A was to rule it. (He ended up having to go with plan B.) He manipulates a god into making him immortal. He nearly murdered his daughter’s lover. He intentionally allowed thousands of people to die for the sake of a con. He offers immortality to an impressionable youth who looks up to him to convince the boy to study Hemalurgy, all so Kell can return to life. 

The fact that he’s considered a HERO tells you just how good of a conman he is...

*Claps* that last line is so good.

 

Alright Stick is stupid, it is literally a stick, the only thing it has going for it is that it's better than Shallan, and let's be honest, so is everything that isn't Shallan.

[Kingsdaughter613]

20 minutes ago, Frustration said:

*Claps* that last line is so good.

 

Alright Stick is stupid, it is literally a stick, the only thing it has going for it is that it's better than Shallan, and let's be honest, so is everything that isn't Shallan.

Lol! You know, when Brandon says ‘in any other story he’d be a villain’ he really wasn’t kidding!

 

I now need to pitch Mistborn to someone with that description of Kell, finishing off with ‘so that’s the hero.’

 

Completely agree with you about stick. He’s... just a stick. And Shallan is bad at sweet talking.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/18/2020 at 0:42 AM, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Kelsier is a psychopath and a megalomaniac. He has committed multiple homicides and atrocities. He’s a thief and a conman, and he has several cultures worshipping him as a deity.  He raised a rebellion and took down an empire for revenge - and plan A was to rule it. (He ended up having to go with plan B.) He manipulates a god into making him immortal. He nearly murdered his daughter’s lover. He intentionally allowed thousands of people to die for the sake of a con. He offers immortality to an impressionable youth who looks up to him to convince the boy to study Hemalurgy, all so Kell can return to life. 

The fact that he’s considered a HERO tells you just how good of a conman he is...

I unironically agree with this one, honestly. He did some good, and that's great, but also is... not a great person. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by beewall

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, beewall said:

I unironically agree with this one, honestly. He did some good, and that's great, but also is... not a great person. 

Not naturally, no. Personally, I think someone who isn’t naturally good, who tries to be good anyway, is greater than the person who does good because it is natural to them.

Kell tries to do good despite his nature, which is one of the things I like about his character. He’s been willing to sacrifice himself to save others, which can’t be easy for someone who’s brain struggles to see other people as having meaning. (Kell is a neurological psychopath, which means he has to work on having empathy. His brain is literally not wired for it. Some people suspect that many surgeons may be neurological psychopaths; the lack of empathy helps them keep calm when they literally have someone’s life in their hands. Any trait can be used for good or evil, except overweening pride.)

Of course, it does make it fairly easy to frame him as the villain. Everything I said is something he’s canonically done, lol!

[LewsTherinTelescope]

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

He’s been willing to sacrifice himself to save others

Granted, a large portion of that was probably that he had a plan to become worshipped as a god if he died lol. (I do see your point, however, and I do give him credit for at least trying; however, he's also extremely murder-happy, and apparently keeps setting up cults worshipping himself, including one where it appears all the builders of a temple dedicated to him then killed themselves in order to protect the location of a decoy.)

[Kingsdaughter613]

4 minutes ago, beewall said:

Granted, a large portion of that was probably that he had a plan to become worshipped as a god if he died lol. (I do see your point, however, and I do give him credit for at least trying; however, he's also extremely murder-happy, and apparently keeps setting up cults worshipping himself, including one where it appears all the builders of a temple dedicated to him then killed themselves in order to protect the location of a decoy.)

I was actually thinking of him giving Preservation to Vin. He did that expecting Ruin to kill him, and he did that out of love for her and a desire to protect Scadrial. It’s probably the most selfless thing he’s ever done.

I actually don’t think the South worships him, but that’s another discussion. (I think he’s their King Arthur.) I also don’t think Kell would have left his followers to die. It’s not his style. More likely, he planted the skeletons. He IS a conman.

Of COURSE Kell’s murder happy - he’s a neurological psychopath! He likes hurting people. The fact that he doesn’t go about murdering people randomly is something he has to work on. As opposed to neurotypical people who don’t have that urge. He generally kills for a specific reason, and doesn’t do it on a whim, which is better than a lot of psychopaths. (He is also technically not an American Psychopath. May be a European one. He isn’t high enough on the PCLR, though it’s very close.)

Batman is actually a decent example of a neurological psychopath who doesn’t kill - and look at the extremes he goes to in the other direction because of it. (Batman has repeatedly said he doesn’t start killing because he couldn’t stop; he also enjoys hurting people. Batman scores higher than Kell on the PCLR, if you can believe it.)

[LewsTherinTelescope]

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I was actually thinking of him giving Preservation to Vin. He did that expecting Ruin to kill him, and he did that out of love for her and a desire to protect Scadrial. It’s probably the most selfless thing he’s ever done.

That's a good point, I forgot about that scene. 

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I actually don’t think the South worships him, but that’s another discussion. (I think he’s their King Arthur.)

I would probably agree with that, but "made himself a religious figure" is still pretty close lol.

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

More likely, he planted the skeletons. He IS a conman.

I hope that's the case, and I could see it being so, though neither scenario would super surprise me.

6 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Of COURSE Kell’s murder happy - he’s a neurological psychopath! He likes hurting people. The fact that he doesn’t go about murdering people randomly is something he has to work on. As opposed to neurotypical people who don’t have that urge. He generally kills for a specific reason, and doesn’t do it on a whim, which is better than a lot of psychopaths.

Him working on it is admirable, but "I like hurting people" doesn't exactly give someone a pass on following through with it, in my mind. You're right he could be worse, but "doesn't kill on a whim" is a pretty low bar.

8 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Batman is actually a decent example of a neurological psychopath who doesn’t kill

Ngl, I totally misread this as "Brandon", and was very very confused.

9 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Batman has repeatedly said he doesn’t start killing because he couldn’t stop; he also enjoys hurting people. Batman scores higher than Kell on the PCLR, if you can believe it.

I don't know a lot about Batman (though I did know the first part about "doesn''t kill because then he couldn't stop"), so that's not super hard for me to believe lol. Hmm, that sort of makes me think of Dalinar now, with his "if I start to push the boundaries I set on myself, I will tear them down completely" thing (too lazy to look up the actual quote). 

[Kingsdaughter613]

9 minutes ago, beewall said:

That's a good point, I forgot about that scene. 

I would probably agree with that, but "made himself a religious figure" is still pretty close lol.

I hope that's the case, and I could see it being so, though neither scenario would super surprise me.

Him working on it is admirable, but "I like hurting people" doesn't exactly give someone a pass on following through with it, in my mind. You're right he could be worse, but "doesn't kill on a whim" is a pretty low bar.

Ngl, I totally misread this as "Brandon", and was very very confused.

I don't know a lot about Batman (though I did know the first part about "doesn''t kill because then he couldn't stop"), so that's not super hard for me to believe lol. Hmm, that sort of makes me think of Dalinar now, with his "if I start to push the boundaries I set on myself, I will tear them down completely" thing (too lazy to look up the actual quote). 

Dalinar isn’t a psychopath. Arguably had sociopathic tendencies, but his whole society did really.

Most of the people Kell killed were arguably casualties of war. The situation in TFE was pretty horrific, and I’d argue that most, if not all, of those deaths were justified under those circumstances. The question is more what he’s doing now that those circumstances don’t apply. 
 

I don’t think Kell ordered the priests to their deaths. He really doesn’t do that unless he has to. He was very upset when Yeden got the army killed, and Vin had to stop him from killing himself to save them. Plans aside, he ultimately died when and where he did to save the people of ‘House Renoux.’ He does care about the people who follow him, and Preservation’s last words seem to have struck him deeply.

He’s only ordered one person to his death: the messenger who died so Marsh would learn about Vin’s earring. That was very much absolutely necessary, so it isn’t nearly as much of a proof. In general, Kell prefers to risk himself. (He also sort-of think he’s invincible, but that’s a side thing.)

I do see him giving vague orders that get badly misinterpreted. I don’t see him actually ordering someone to die for a con. Especially when he can just get some skeletons to do it instead.

 

King Arthur isn’t a religious figure. And that one can come about just by being a good ruler for sixty years, then leaving with a promise to return. Also having a remarkable power set and saving an entire civilization. I think what happened in the South was not nearly as intentional as what he did in the North, but what he did IS the sort of thing people create myths about. Kell being Kell, he’s not going to refute them, but I don’t know that he intentionally caused them.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

Just now, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Dalinar isn’t a psychopath. Arguably had sociopathic tendencies, but his whole society did really.

Oh no, I wasn't saying he was, just that that reminded me of something he said.

3 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I don’t think Kell ordered the priests to their deaths. He really doesn’t do that unless he has to. He was very upset when Yeden got the army killed, and Vin had to stop him from killing himself to save them. Plans aside, he ultimately died when and where he did to save the people of ‘House Renoux.’ He does care about the people who follow him, and Preservation’s last words seem to have struck him deeply.

He’s only ordered one person to his death: the messenger who died so Marsh would learn about Vin’s earring. That was very much absolutely necessary, so it isn’t nearly as much of a proof. In general, Kell prefers to risk himself. (He also sort-of think he’s invincible, but that’s a side thing.)

That did strike me, honestly. Which was why I was rather disappointed that he seemed to have backtracked, lol. But I do hope it turns out you're correct here.

4 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

King Arthur isn’t a religious figure. And that one can come about just by being a good ruler for sixty years, then leaving with a promise to return. Also having a remarkable power set and saving an entire civilization. I think what happened in the South was not nearly as intentional as what he did in the North, but what he did IS the sort of thing people create myths about. Kell being Kell, he’s not going to refute them, but I don’t know that he intentionally caused them.

Oh you meant King Arthur more specifically than I thought you meant, I thought you just were saying "he's not quite God to them". That very well could be. I remember getting a more religious vibe, but I'll need to reread to be sure, and that could very well just be me reading it differently rather than the text intending that. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

24 minutes ago, beewall said:

Oh no, I wasn't saying he was, just that that reminded me of something he said.

That did strike me, honestly. Which was why I was rather disappointed that he seemed to have backtracked, lol. But I do hope it turns out you're correct here.

Oh you meant King Arthur more specifically than I thought you meant, I thought you just were saying "he's not quite God to them". That very well could be. I remember getting a more religious vibe, but I'll need to reread to be sure, and that could very well just be me reading it differently rather than the text intending that. 

I think Wax and co. are interpreting things that way. I think it’s misleading, especially with the translation convention. 
 

SoScads believe that all metalborn are ‘gods’. This is likely a translation of an unknown term. Demi-god, maybe? Their actual gods appear to be Herr and Frau. The descriptions of the Sovereign, while respectful, aren’t reverent. Certainly, they don’t treat metalborn as worshipful beings (note that Allik is consistently insulting, and his captain doesn’t even bother with titles.)

I think the metalborn are Demi-gods thing existed before Kell showed up, due to allomancy being very rare in the South. Kell was just a much more powerful Demi-god. He then saves their entire civilization, and rules them fairly well for sixty years (which is quite a bit of character development, since WoB is that TFE Kell would have gotten bored of ruling fast - and not done a very good job.) He also gives them Feruchemy. (How???)

Also, note the name. A Sovereign is a king. Kell is associated with ruling in the South.

The Sovereign is said to have had priests, but we don’t know what that entails, or how much is translation convention at play. I mean, the word priest comes from a word meaning elder. It could be a mistranslation of attendant or servant or minister, all of which can be synonyms for priest. Note that the Obligators were both ministers AND priests, meaning the two words are possibly the same or synonymous in the North. (Thing to ask Brandon: Are the words for priest and minister the same on North Scadrial?) What Wax and co hear may not be accurate.

Or the South could just call the people attending their Demi-gods priests.

Either way, I think the concept existed before Kell showed up, and their behavior regarding him does not feel like he’s worshipped so much as respected. Not divine, but legendary, if that makes sense.

Edited November 2, 2020 by Kingsdaughter613

[LewsTherinTelescope]

26 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

[lots of words that quoting would take up lots of space]

That's a good point, I didn't think about how translation could play into it. What you're saying definitely makes sense.