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Spook in Bands of Mourning


CameronUluvara

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Do we really know that it’s Kelsier in BoM?Is it a wob? Somebody help me out.

If Brandon doesn’t specifically say that it’s Kelsier, it’s gotta be Spook. 

1: Kelsier told him to go experiment with the leftover spikes at the end of Secret History.

2: Spook wrote that book on Hemalurgy

3: Spook is called the Survivor of the Flames

4: Brandon specifically pointed out the bandages and scars on his arms in hero of ages 

5: It’s really too early for Kelsier to have figured out a way to come back

6: it’s just too obvious to be Kelsier. Don’t fall for the Sanderson trick! 

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So it has been I believe 200 ish years since the first era. I beleive it has been claimed spook is dead. It is I believed to be confirmed to be Kelsier through this WoB:

Viridian

Why did Hoid give the memory coin to Wax? What was his intention?

Brandon Sanderson

He thought that certain information was being kept, and certain lies were being perpetuated. And Hoid was a fan of that information being out.

Viridian

I'm still suspicious.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you should be suspicious of Hoid's motive. He and Kelsier do not get along. Let's just say... Kelsier did not want that information to get out.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)
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I do think that it’s Kelsier that we see in BoM, but I definitely think we’re gonna see Spook again. If Kelsier can still be alive, and he and Spook have the same information about Hemalurgy, there’s no reason Spook couldn’t be alive as well. 

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2 hours ago, Danex said:

I do think that it’s Kelsier that we see in BoM, but I definitely think we’re gonna see Spook again. If Kelsier can still be alive, and he and Spook have the same information about Hemalurgy, there’s no reason Spook couldn’t be alive as well. 

Kelsier was already immortal.

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On 10/9/2020 at 11:35 PM, Frustration said:

Kelsier was already immortal.

We can't be sure of that. There haven't been too many cases (no other case, really) of someone who'd died, refused to Pass On, Ascended while a Cognitive Shadow, de-Ascended to Sliverhood, then re-acquired a physical form apparently through hemalurgy. Even then, he's likely only functionally immortal - as immortal as other "Investiture Expanded Shadows" like Returned, Heralds, and Fused are, but even those can be physically killed. It's just that Fused and Heralds have (or had) an extra mechanism to get recycled from the CR back into the Physical Realm (where Returned do not).

In Kelsier's case it'd be from having once Ascended - he will now not pass Beyond "if he doesn't want to go". And it seems like it would take a lot. More than seeing his brother made an Inquisitor, his quest goal in killing TLR come to fruition, seeing all of Scadrial nearly get destroyed then saved and remade, seeing Vin pass on, Sazed become Harmony, and feeling Mare Beyond waiting for him... Nah, I'm not done here. There's always another secret.

On 10/10/2020 at 0:13 PM, CameronUluvara said:

Yeah, but don’t forget that Kelsier tempted Spook with the possibility of immortality, using what the lord ruler did as an example, and that’s why spook agreed to help him

So what does that mean then? Getting Spook a spike for F-atium is gonna be pretty tough, what with there not being any Feruchemists left to steal it from, never mind the ethical question involved; and it's hard to fathom why Ruin would make too many of those spikes to give Inquisitors. And even then you'd have to find and identify one, after the world was all shuffled around, how to sift through the ruins of Kredik Shaw looking for spikes from the Inquisitors that Vin beat down there?

Though it is noteworthy that they do exist. It wasn't just Marsh who was given a spike for F-atium; note use of plural:

Quote

zas678

Why on earth does Marsh have a Feruchemical atium spike? You've said that Ironeyes is in fact Marsh. Did Ruin spike someone for him? Or did Sazed grant him the power?

Brandon Sanderson

Dead Inquisitors Vin killed. Some were granted the spike for reasons I haven't spoken of yet.

/r/Fantasy_Bookclub Alloy of Law Q&A (Jan. 17, 2012)

In fact, it seems that perhaps Marsh was not given one by Ruin but took one for himself, which means he may have been able to identify them after finding the heap of dead Inquisitor remains somewhere in post-Catacendre Scadrial, and give another one to Spook or whoever else.

And come to think of it, Wax glimpsed Rashek's Hut and the throne room from inside the former Kredik Shaw among the underground caverns beneath the Originator Tomb at the center of the Field of Rebirth in Shadows of Self. So it may not even have been that hard for him to find. Especially if Harmony wanted him to find it (even if He's opposed to making new spikes and would rather people not learn about hemalurgy, obviously Marsh would already know about how these spikes were made and who had them).

Harder for Marsh will be living into Era 3 and beyond, where it's questionable if his Inquisitor Super Steelsight will allow him to experience movies, or TV or computer or smartphone screens. But I digress.

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34 minutes ago, robardin said:

We can't be sure of that. There haven't been too many cases (no other case, really) of someone who'd died, refused to Pass On, Ascended while a Cognitive Shadow, de-Ascended to Sliverhood, then re-acquired a physical form apparently through hemalurgy. Even then, he's likely only functionally immortal - as immortal as other "Investiture Expanded Shadows" like Returned, Heralds, and Fused are, but even those can be physically killed. It's just that Fused and Heralds have (or had) an extra mechanism to get recycled from the CR back into the Physical Realm (where Returned do not).

In Kelsier's case it'd be from having once Ascended - he will now not pass Beyond "if he doesn't want to go". And it seems like it would take a lot. More than seeing his brother made an Inquisitor, his quest goal in killing TLR come to fruition, seeing all of Scadrial nearly get destroyed then saved and remade, seeing Vin pass on, Sazed become Harmony, and feeling Mare Beyond waiting for him... Nah, I'm not done here. There's always another secret.

So what does that mean then? Getting Spook a spike for F-atium is gonna be pretty tough, what with there not being any Feruchemists left to steal it from, never mind the ethical question involved; and it's hard to fathom why Ruin would make too many of those spikes to give Inquisitors. And even then you'd have to find and identify one, after the world was all shuffled around, how to sift through the ruins of Kredik Shaw looking for spikes from the Inquisitors that Vin beat down there?

Though it is noteworthy that they do exist. It wasn't just Marsh who was given a spike for F-atium; note use of plural:

In fact, it seems that perhaps Marsh was not given one by Ruin but took one for himself, which means he may have been able to identify them after finding the heap of dead Inquisitor remains somewhere in post-Catacendre Scadrial, and give another one to Spook or whoever else.

And come to think of it, Wax glimpsed Rashek's Hut and the throne room from inside the former Kredik Shaw among the underground caverns beneath the Originator Tomb at the center of the Field of Rebirth in Shadows of Self. So it may not even have been that hard for him to find. Especially if Harmony wanted him to find it (even if He's opposed to making new spikes and would rather people not learn about hemalurgy, obviously Marsh would already know about how these spikes were made and who had them).

Harder for Marsh will be living into Era 3 and beyond, where it's questionable if his Inquisitor Super Steelsight will allow him to experience movies, or TV or computer or smartphone screens. But I digress.

Indications are that CS get ‘stuck’ at the age where they died. I theorized a while ago that their souls ‘remember’ that they’re supposed to be dead, and the dead don’t get older. My reasoning may be wrong, but CS like Kell do seem to have a measure of immortality.

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One other relevant WoB that confirms the figure we saw at the end of BoM is Kelsier and not Spook.

Quote

Questioner

In Bands of Mourning, we learned that the Sovereign, who they confused as being the Lord Ruler, came after the Catacendre. [He] was their god, was their king and god. And then Kelsier looking for a string. Is the spike somehow connecting Kelsier's soul to Spook's body.

Brandon Sanderson

No, good question. It is connecting his soul with his body, his current body, but it is not Spook's body. That's a great theory.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

This only makes sense if the person whose eyes we 'see' through in the coppermind vision is Kelsier himself and Brandon is quite explicit that it's not Spook's body. Now, Brandon has RAFO'd questions about post-Era 1 Spook which leaves open the possibility that he's not dead, but the caveats about how he'd attain and maintain that immortality come into play and we need to remember that sometimes a RAFO just means 'I want to keep you guessing'. All we know for sure is that there's more Brandon wants to tell us about Spook at some point.

On 10/18/2020 at 6:24 AM, robardin said:

We can't be sure of that. There haven't been too many cases (no other case, really) of someone who'd died, refused to Pass On, Ascended while a Cognitive Shadow, de-Ascended to Sliverhood, then re-acquired a physical form apparently through hemalurgy.

True, he's a unique case there, but Kelsier himself notices at the end of Secret History that he's not feeling the pull of the Beyond and thus won't pass on unless he chooses to go. Presumably he could be killed in other ways since we know of ways to damage a Cognitive Shadow's soul, but he's immortal insofar as he won't die of whatever the CS equivalent of natural causes would be. As for how we know he won't 'age', we have multiple examples of Cognitive Shadows in other Cosmere works who don't, in at least somewhat similar situations. Tagged since this is the Mistborn board.

Spoiler

The Returned are 'stapled' into Physical bodies with the Divine Breath (not too different to Kelsier in that respect) but don't age unless their self-image of what a god should be includes a particular age, in which case they'll quickly mature to that point and then stop. We've seen Returned who have lived even longer than Kelsier has and they aren't visibly any older.

Likewise the Heralds are much much older than even the oldest Returned and haven't 'aged' though we don't know what mechanism is crafting their bodies. We do know however that they've spent five thousand years or so in the same bodies.

So yeah, the balance of the evidence says that Kelsier is ageless regardless of how many twists and turns his soul has gone through to get to where he is at present.

Edited by Weltall
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  • 2 months later...
On 10/19/2020 at 2:24 AM, robardin said:

So what does that mean then? Getting Spook a spike for F-atium is gonna be pretty tough, what with there not being any Feruchemists left to steal it from, never mind the ethical question involved; and it's hard to fathom why Ruin would make too many of those spikes to give Inquisitors. And even then you'd have to find and identify one, after the world was all shuffled around, how to sift through the ruins of Kredik Shaw looking for spikes from the Inquisitors that Vin beat down there?

There would have been Feruchemists left because Spook wasn't one, and feruchemy is still very prevalent (if its sDNA in scadrial's population is weakened) in era 2.

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52 minutes ago, The Titan God said:

There would have been Feruchemists left because Spook wasn't one, and feruchemy is still very prevalent (if its sDNA in scadrial's population is weakened) in era 2.

Yes but not at the time of the end of Secret History. It's only a few years since the Catacendre, and it'll take a generation for new Feruchemists to be born, and by Era 2 legend anyway, they will all be Ferrings... Where F-atium Ferrings, like Seer Mistings, will no longer be a thing after Harmony restored the Allomantic table, replacing atium/malatium with cadmium/bendalloy (I think).

So it would seem the only way for Spook to gain a spike for F-atium would be to identify one and to get it from a dead Inquisitor, or to spike a very rare at best full Feruchemist.

 

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On 26/12/2020 at 10:09 AM, robardin said:

So it would seem the only way for Spook to gain a spike for F-atium would be to identify one and to get it from a dead Inquisitor, or to spike a very rare at best full Feruchemist.

Yes, but spook doesn't neccesarily need feruchemical atium. He could have feruchemical gold, which would heal any damage age did to his body (it may be that it would have to be very strong gold compounding for this to work, but if he is getting it from hemalurgy, perhaps multiple spikes would increase the feruchemy's strength to the necessary level)

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1 hour ago, The Titan God said:

Yes, but spook doesn't neccesarily need feruchemical atium. He could have feruchemical gold, which would heal any damage age did to his body (it may be that it would have to be very strong gold compounding for this to work, but if he is getting it from hemalurgy, perhaps multiple spikes would increase the feruchemy's strength to the necessary level)

It occurs to me that Kell could just make Spook feruchemical Nicrosilminds allowing him to use Atium compounding.

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