What are the Ghostbloods (with regards to the entire Cosmere)?

[DramaQueen]

9 hours ago, The Traveller said:

 

Haha.. Massive understatement indeed. 
Ask the Indian here! 

PS: 

  Reveal hidden contents

Sorry for the double post. But you cannot quote while editing and read these comments later and just could not resist for obvious reasons! 
 

@Rainier do they have authority from their home world to operate covertly on other planets for long sustained occupation of those worlds in the future? Interesting notion but Seems unlikely. Because they are operating too stealthily if they had. But may be they are a precursor to what EIC eventually became. 

22 hours ago, Rainier said:

This is an impressive understatement. Yeah, they delivered tea to America. Why them? Because they were the only ones allowed to do so. How is that? Because they had the monopoly on imports from the East Indes (India). Who gave them this monopoly? The British Crown. Why did they do so? How much time do you have?

The EIC was basically God Almighty for India. They were the colonizing force, and their job was to run the country smoothly so that trade could flourish. Their job was not to play nice with the locals, it was to make money, and they exploited their role as sole British envoy to the East to become one of the most powerful corporations to ever exist. 

There are two board games, both by the same guy, looking into this. One is about the opium trade into China, specifically, and is called An Infamous Traffic. The other is about the EIC in India, and is called John Company, as this was a nickname for the company. One of the unique things about these games is that the wealth and money you acquire through trade is not how you win the game, you are competing for prestige back in London, and must convert your money into status in order to win.

If the Ghostbloods are the equivalent to the East India Company, then they'd have the imprimatur of some ruling body on their own world, and would be given the monopoly on inter-Cosmere trade, as well as given the task of making the Cosmere safe for (their) trading. Presumably that's what they're doing on Roshar: laying the foundation for a lasting occupation, such that they can rely on exports of Investiture from Roshar.

Yes, this. ^ I just didn't feel like going into that much detail, so I went with a very general explanation.

[Rainier]

5 hours ago, Ixthos said:

Silverlight could well be a city state with a military, trading hub, court of law. Silverlight could just be a place of learning, but that doesn't mean it only is a place of learning.

Yes, Silverlight could be Athens, or Rome. If you prefer a more modern example, maybe Singapore. But I don't think there's any reason to think they're a bunch of scholars sedately exploring the universe. Yes, they study, and yes, they explore, but I would also expect them to expand, extract, and exploit, just like any other interested party.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

But only one hand at a time can wear the One Ring, as well you know, Saruman! -- I mean, only one Ghostblood could actually Ascend!

We know Adonalsium can be split in half, four times in a row. Why not a fifth time and make it 32 shards? Why not a sixth and make 64? Why not recreate the original conspiracy, with the same payout: a shard of divinity, all to yourself. All you have to do is shatter a shard and be ready when you do.

10 hours ago, The Traveller said:

@Rainier do they have authority from their home world to operate covertly on other planets for long sustained occupation of those worlds in the future?

I don't think they have any authority other than action, force, and will. Maybe they're from Silverlight, or another city in Shadesmar. Maybe they're a rogue group of Returned trying to stop living like vampires on the people of Nalthis. Maybe they're just people who can recognize a fulcrum when they see it, and are rushing to get to the long end of the lever before anyone else knows what's happened.

If the Ghostbloods aren't the East India Company, then the Ones Above (Sixth of the Dusk) probably are. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Rainier

[+robardin]

34 minutes ago, Rainier said:

We know Adonalsium can be split in half, four times in a row. Why not a fifth time and make it 32 shards? Why not a sixth and make 64? Why not recreate the original conspiracy, with the same payout: a shard of divinity, all to yourself. All you have to do is shatter a shard and be ready when you do.

Hmm, this is an interesting concept. Splintering is, in effect, "Shattering" a Shard - what we see as Seons on Elantris are basically free-floating splinters of Devotion, right? Well then, why can't a person mini-Ascend by absorbing one? If it's because they've been around long enough to become sentient, then is that the answer? It has to be a freshly Splintered, large bit of Investiture? Or would it simply be a temporary Ascension, as happened to TLR (where one didn't get all of Preservation at the Well, just enough of of it comprise the majority and for long enough to renew the Intent behind the prison of the Well)?

[Aon Tia]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

don't think they have any authority other than action, force, and will. Maybe they're from Silverlight, or another city in Shadesmar. Maybe they're a rogue group of Returned trying to stop living like vampires on the people of Nalthis. Maybe they're just people who can recognize a fulcrum when they see it, and are rushing to get to the long end of the lever before anyone else knows what's happened.

If the Ghostbloods aren't the East India Company, then the Ones Above (Sixth of the Dusk) probably are. 

I agree. I don’t think they have the legal sanction of any authority of any planet. So they are less EIC and more mafia according to me. 
The ones above definitely EIC 

[Karger]

I don't think we have enough info to answer the OP.  We don't know who actually governs the GB's actions.

[Aon Tia]

8 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think we have enough info to answer the OP.  We don't know who actually governs the GB's actions.

Speculation! Come on @Karger humour us. Speculate. That is what we do all the time here. 

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, The Traveller said:

Speculation! Come on @Karger humour us. Speculate. That is what we do all the time here. 

You really had to make me do it didn't you. 

What we know so far about... 

The GBs themselves

The GBs are cosmere aware and capable at espionage, blackmail, assassination, research and recruitment.  They have a hierarchy and Mraize claims that they are protective of each other and their organization as a whole.  While this may just be propaganda the lack of any rouge operatives or general knowledge of their activities implies they are very good at policing themselves and that does not happen without a large committed group making it that way.  The GBs are highly goal and results oriented.  They do not(as far as we know) undertake missions related to personal vendettas or work haphazardly.  When we see a GB do something it is always because they have a particular purpose in mind.  Even a fairly young(and I think junior) member, Kabsal, was careful and fairly patient.

How they got where they are now

They somehow knew about the oncoming desolation prior to its onset.  More importantly they knew about it prior to Gavilar's assassination.  We only are aware of three sources of information on this topic.  The first is Gavilar, the second is the Heralds and the third are the spren.  The only other possibility is that they must be backed by a shard or at least have access to some form of reliable future sight. 

We know they had good information about Urithiru's location and capabilities.  Also Gavilar knew about them and suspected that they wanted him dead.  I think we can rule out Gavilar choosing to confide in them.  I also do not think they would be able to find information about Urithiru from him.  Ishar is the only proactive Herald we know of(Nale operates at his instruction) other then Kelek.  While Kelek being their founder would be awesome they apparently have the secret to him running away(getting investiture off world) which seems his primary goal already.  However his involvement would explain a lot about how they know so much as well as how they keep tabs on Nale's activities.  We also know they have relationships with the spren(they pass through shadesmar) and that some(like the highspren) have records that the GBs could have used to learn about the tower's capabilities.

What they want

So far they have worked diligently to gain access to radiants and shadesmar passage.  Mraize claims they are working to profit off of the investiture trade they can set up cosmere wide.  If this works out they could gain footholds in emerging cultures everywhere allowing them all incredible amounts of both wealth and power on many worlds.  While its potential for gain is undeniable this seems too ambitious for an organization not backed by a government or other political entity unless an immortal is involved. 

So what are they? 

An organized politically motivated business venture that does not care about law or morality and is working on world domination.  Basically they are a multinational corporation with more killing and a side of politics.

Most of the GB hierarchy will be dead prior to the pay off so to give an answer to the OP they don't really fit into any one category you put forward.  A close earth analog does not exist but "legitimate" business comes fairly close.  (Given that they operate in areas with no laws and don't seem to care about the law in places that they have business dealings calling them legitimate does not seem appropriate).

I also remembered I have this theory sitting in my hall.  It will probably be disproved but it is what I though in days gone by.

 

[Aon Tia]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

You really had to make me do it didn't you. 

What we know so far about... 

The GBs themselves

The GBs are cosmere aware and capable at espionage, blackmail, assassination, research and recruitment.  They have a hierarchy and Mraize claims that they are protective of each other and their organization as a whole.  While this may just be propaganda the lack of any rouge operatives or general knowledge of their activities implies they are very good at policing themselves and that does not happen without a large committed group making it that way.  The GBs are highly goal and results oriented.  They do not(as far as we know) undertake missions related to personal vendettas or work haphazardly.  When we see a GB do something it is always because they have a particular purpose in mind.  Even a fairly young(and I think junior) member, Kabsal, was careful and fairly patient.

How they got where they are now

They somehow knew about the oncoming desolation prior to its onset.  More importantly they knew about it prior to Gavilar's assassination.  We only are aware of three sources of information on this topic.  The first is Gavilar, the second is the Heralds and the third are the spren.  The only other possibility is that they must be backed by a shard or at least have access to some form of reliable future sight. 

We know they had good information about Urithiru's location and capabilities.  Also Gavilar knew about them and suspected that they wanted him dead.  I think we can rule out Gavilar choosing to confide in them.  I also do not think they would be able to find information about Urithiru from him.  Ishar is the only proactive Herald we know of(Nale operates at his instruction) other then Kelek.  While Kelek being their founder would be awesome they apparently have the secret to him running away(getting investiture off world) which seems his primary goal already.  However his involvement would explain a lot about how they know so much as well as how they keep tabs on Nale's activities.  We also know they have relationships with the spren(they pass through shadesmar) and that some(like the highspren) have records that the GBs could have used to learn about the tower's capabilities.

What they want

So far they have worked diligently to gain access to radiants and shadesmar passage.  Mraize claims they are working to profit off of the investiture trade they can set up cosmere wide.  If this works out they could gain footholds in emerging cultures everywhere allowing them all incredible amounts of both wealth and power on many worlds.  While its potential for gain is undeniable this seems too ambitious for an organization not backed by a government or other political entity unless an immortal is involved. 

So what are they? 

An organized politically motivated business venture that does not care about law or morality and is working on world domination.  Basically they are a multinational corporation with more killing and a side of politics.

Most of the GB hierarchy will be dead prior to the pay off so to give an answer to the OP they don't really fit into any one category you put forward.  A close earth analog does not exist but "legitimate" business comes fairly close.  (Given that they operate in areas with no laws and don't seem to care about the law in places that they have business dealings calling them legitimate does not seem appropriate).

I also remembered I have this theory sitting in my hall.  It will probably be disproved but it is what I though in days gone by.

 

There you go @Karger that was brilliant analysis. So you view them as closer to East India Company ? A business entity which global domination in their sight. They have resources and have information that is classified and they are not averse to using it. 
They recruit heavily from within the natives and thus create a group of loyalists who agree with their agenda

[Karger]

4 hours ago, The Traveller said:

There you go @Karger that was brilliant analysis. So you view them as closer to East India Company ? A business entity which global domination in their sight. They have resources and have information that is classified and they are not averse to using it. 
They recruit heavily from within the natives and thus create a group of loyalists who agree with their agenda

Fairly close.  However entities like the East India Company don't exist without some kind of government backing them.

[+robardin]

One way to assess what the GBs are is to judge them by their composition and their operations.

That is to say: who do they recruit, how are they recruited (what attracts them to become one, what are they offered or what are they told about being a GB), and what are they asked to do both to gain membership and once admitted as a GB?

Known GBs: Lin Davar, Kabsal, Mraize, Iyatil, "Thaidakar"; all the unnamed others in Mraize's Warcamp Cellar.

We don't yet know anything about how these people entered the organization.

Special note: the man who'd "helped" Lin Davar to use the Soulcaster and then died shortly after Lin did, is widely assumed to be a GB (including by Shallan) but was found only with the GB symbol as a pendant - not as a tattoo - which is pretty suspicious to me, so I didn't include him on the list of "Known GBs".

Known GB recruits/inductees: Veil/Shallan Davar.

Well, lots of POV information here, eh!

Known GB wannabes: Tyn, "Ishnah" (in quotes because some ppl theorize she wasalways already a GB).

The "wannabes" already knew, or thought they knew, about the Ghostbloods and wanted in.

Tyn said to Shallan: "Trust me, you want to know who I know, and you want to work with them. Without their approval, nothing big happens at the Shattered Plains." So she was a freelance agent - confidence schemer and undercover agent/assassin - who wanted to broaden her base. Unfortunately for her, the GBs were never seriously considering her as a member - "Tyn thought herself to be the hunter, but she was game all along."

And then adding as a comment to Veil in recruiting her, after specifically saying they had not been recruiting Tyn: "We are not like others you have known. We have a greater purpose, and we are... protective of one another." Meaning, a greater purpose Tyn had no idea about.

Ishnah implies that she's a "freelancer" able to work under Veil because her former employer, House Hamaradin ("in Vamah's court"), was taken down by the GBs after "crossing them". But her stated reason for wanting into the GBs via Veil was: "The world is wrong now. Nothing make sense. But you... Your group... You know things. I don't want to be blind anymore." And Mraize knows who she is, commenting that she oversold her history, and gives Veil his blessing to work with her - while also adding "if you chooose to eliminate her, we will help cover up the disappearance". It doesn't sound like Ishnah was on the path to GB membership, either (not sure if her longer service under Shallan since then has changed anything).

"GB Aware" people: Jasnah, Ialai, Gavilar (they were targeted by the GBs and knew it, even knowing Thaidakar's name).

We also don't yet know how much, or how, these people knew about Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods.

Edited October 16, 2020 by robardin

[Kingsdaughter613]

22 hours ago, robardin said:

Hmm, this is an interesting concept. Splintering is, in effect, "Shattering" a Shard - what we see as Seons on Elantris are basically free-floating splinters of Devotion, right? Well then, why can't a person mini-Ascend by absorbing one? If it's because they've been around long enough to become sentient, then is that the answer? It has to be a freshly Splintered, large bit of Investiture? Or would it simply be a temporary Ascension, as happened to TLR (where one didn't get all of Preservation at the Well, just enough of of it comprise the majority and for long enough to renew the Intent behind the prison of the Well)?

Well, we’ve seen what happens with Spren bonds... particularly when those Spren are very large concentrations of Investiture... 
 

Dalinar did kinda Ascend a little that one time...

[Rainier]

22 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Dalinar did kinda Ascend a little that one time...

Also, what do you call the surge of power Kaladin gets each time he's sworn an oath, that surge of power he was counting on in Shadesmar?

Tiny bit of divinity, tiny bit of Ascension. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

11 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Also, what do you call the surge of power Kaladin gets each time he's sworn an oath, that surge of power he was counting on in Shadesmar?

Tiny bit of divinity, tiny bit of Ascension. 

It was a little more extreme with Dalinar though, and the word Ascend was used in context, so I thought it was a better example.

[Lidolas]

After reading chapter 13, I can't help but think of them as Halliburton and Mraize as Dick Cheney. 

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, robardin said:

"GB Aware" people: Jasnah, Ialai, Gavilar (they were targeted by the GBs and knew it, even knowing Thaidakar's name).

 

We also don't yet know how much, or how, these people knew about Thaidakar and the Ghostbloods.

That is leaving out the whole Diagramm.

[Rainier]

6 hours ago, Lidolas said:

After reading chapter 13, I can't help but think of them as Halliburton and Mraize as Dick Cheney. 

"This is a memo that describes how we're going to take out seven countries in five years. Starting with Tukar, then Emul, Marat, Tashikk, Liafor, Steen and finishing off, Azir."

"The truth is about Roshar is, had there been no Stormlight there, it would be like Sel. Nobody is threatening to intervene in Sel. The problem is the opposite, we keep asking for someone to intervene and fix it. There's no question that the presence of Stormlight throughout the planet has sparked Great Power involvement."

[+robardin]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

That is leaving out the whole Diagramm.

Well, we've seen Mraize dismiss "that fool who sits in Kharbranth and imagines himself a player" or something like that, no doubt referring to Taravangian; what have we seen from the Diagrammers in mentioning the Ghostbloods?  I know the Diagram itself mentions them somehow (though I don't remember exactly where this is mentioned).

I am not certain that the Diagram folks know much about the GBs and their motives at present, even if Transcendent Taravangian figured out or saw a lot about them, who knows what he actually wrote down about them. (I mean they know, the Diagram, but we as readers don't know what they know.)

[+Oltux72]

7 hours ago, robardin said:

Well, we've seen Mraize dismiss "that fool who sits in Kharbranth and imagines himself a player" or something like that, no doubt referring to Taravangian;

Well, Odium has not spoken to Mraize. And I don't think that was out of fear. Mraize has a somewhat exaggerated view of himself.

7 hours ago, robardin said:

what have we seen from the Diagrammers in mentioning the Ghostbloods?  I know the Diagram itself mentions them somehow (though I don't remember exactly where this is mentioned).

An epigraph mentioning Mraize, probably mistaking a reference in the Diagramm aimed at Hoid. Hence the members themselves, not just the document itself, know about the Ghostbloods.

7 hours ago, robardin said:

I am not certain that the Diagram folks know much about the GBs and their motives at present, even if Transcendent Taravangian figured out or saw a lot about them, who knows what he actually wrote down about them. (I mean they know, the Diagram, but we as readers don't know what they know.)

It is unclear whether they know their motivation. In fact, how sure are we that the Ghostbloods outside a narrow circle know their organisation's true goals?

[+robardin]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

An epigraph mentioning Mraize, probably mistaking a reference in the Diagram aimed at Hoid. Hence the members themselves, not just the document itself, know about the Ghostbloods.

It is unclear whether they know their motivation. In fact, how sure are we that the Ghostbloods outside a narrow circle know their organisation's true goals?

Oh right. The epigraph to Ch. 85 of WoR that shows a passage in the Diagram: But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?

And it's Adrotagia who then notes, "Could this refer to Mraize?" so she knows of Mraize as a worldhopper, if not the GBs in general.

And the second part, is kind of my point in a thread wondering about what the Ghostbloods have has their stated "greater purpose", and if Thaidakar is a Cult Leader type who created and dictates that purpose for the group, or is simply the current capo di tutti capi who himself rose to that position (possibly from the ground up).

Drawing links between Cosmere works by known character motivation and even language clues (ichor-alcohol is... the blood of ghosts!) to analyze a worldhopping group is fun, but another angle is to look at who they want as members, who they do not want, and what they do to get members to join.

WoBs mention the Ghostbloods "actively recruiting" from non-field-agents of the 17th Shard, and we have some hint as to the kind of people who are 17th Sharders. So, how are they recruited?

When Mraize realizes that Veil must have killed Tyn and taken her place in reporting to them, he tells her that advancing by killing your own superior "is not forbidden, but hardly encouraged" among the Ghostbloods, but also that Tyn had not been made one of them yet (but, being asked to report in person to a gathering of GBs and not just a handler, perhaps hd been on track or close to being one). There's been no worshipful or fearful mention of Thaidakar to Shallan as The One. That seems to kill one aspect of the "Big Cult" idea.

I have to say that that also feels to me like reasons against the Thaidakar Is Kelsier theory. Unless he's changed a lot, while Kell would not be above killing people he considers "expendable others" in pursuit of a goal, he would never tolerate in-group murders. And having set himself up as a god at least twice, he would probably make himself known as The Crewleader to everyone in the crew, down to the new recruits. 

They deal in knowledge and power more so than money. They have been building a cross-world network of knowledgeable and ruthless people, drawing them in with promises of Knowing What's Really Going On And What We Can Do To Direct It. They maintain a low profile.

Vasher mentions pursuing Yesteel as his next goal at the end of Warbreaker,  saying that "a tyrant of some kind" who was trying to "restore Huth and Kuth" has "recruited" Yesteel, who has "resurfaced" with a "new, more potent form of ichor-alcohol".

So, big leap here but building on the Yesteel idea, perhaps the big reveal there (not so big, really) is that Yesteel recruited himself, as it were; that the Manywar was so named because it spanned many worlds; and that Huth and Kuth were factions, not nations of Nalthis (though perhaps the name of their physical HQ footprint on Nalthis), between the Five Scholars.

And that the "more potent form of ichor-alcohol" is indeed the Blood of Ghosts.

Truly, all the pieces fit!

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Oh right. The epigraph to Ch. 85 of WoR that shows a passage in the Diagram: But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?

And it's Adrotagia who then notes, "Could this refer to Mraize?" so she knows of Mraize as a worldhopper, if not the GBs in general.

There is a problem. The Diagramm aims for racial survival. That is actually rational, but only under the premise that man lives only on Roshar (and maybe Ashyn and Braize)

1 hour ago, robardin said:

And the second part, is kind of my point in a thread wondering about what the Ghostbloods have has their stated "greater purpose", and if Thaidakar is a Cult Leader type who created and dictates that purpose for the group, or is simply the current capo di tutti capi who himself rose to that position (possibly from the ground up).

The Ghostbloods have resources and a reputation that must have taken decades to build. Unless Thaidakar is immortal I cannot see how he founded them..

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I have to say that that also feels to me like reasons against the Thaidakar Is Kelsier theory. Unless he's changed a lot, while Kell would not be above killing people he considers "expendable others" in pursuit of a goal, he would never tolerate in-group murders. And having set himself up as a god at least twice, he would probably make himself known as The Crewleader to everyone in the crew, down to the new recruits. 

But that also should apply to Yesteel. Given how the Five Scholars broke up, I have serious problems with Yesteel allowing internal murders. And I wonder why Vasher is still alive.

 

[+robardin]

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The Ghostbloods have resources and a reputation that must have taken decades to build. Unless Thaidakar is immortal I cannot see how he founded them..

But that also should apply to Yesteel. Given how the Five Scholars broke up, I have serious problems with Yesteel allowing internal murders. And I wonder why Vasher is still alive.

Yes... Immortal... Like Vasher/Zahel is as a Returned? (And by wondering why Vasher is still alive, do you mean, why hasn't Yesteel managed to kill him?)

And we have no idea how Yesteel operates. If he runs a ruthless organization that values loyalty to a cause over personal loyalties, he simply has to be the best person to lead the cause to stay on top - and being immortal has a big plus in that area.

[+Oltux72]

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

Yes... Immortal... Like Vasher/Zahel is as a Returned?

Even the period between Warbreaker and Stormlight Archive maz be a bit short.

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

(And by wondering why Vasher is still alive, do you mean, why hasn't Yesteel managed to kill him?)

yes.

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

And we have no idea how Yesteel operates. If he runs a ruthless organization that values loyalty to a cause over personal loyalties, he simply has to be the best person to lead the cause to stay on top - and being immortal has a big plus in that area.

Apparently Thaidakar founded research into advanced fabrials and was able to give away a Soulcaster and even knew of the Aether world. That is just a bit advanced for Yesteel.

[Kingsdaughter613]

12 hours ago, robardin said:

Oh right. The epigraph to Ch. 85 of WoR that shows a passage in the Diagram: But who is the wanderer, the wild piece, the one who makes no sense? I glimpse at his implications, and the world opens to me. I shy back. Impossible. Is it?

And it's Adrotagia who then notes, "Could this refer to Mraize?" so she knows of Mraize as a worldhopper, if not the GBs in general.

And the second part, is kind of my point in a thread wondering about what the Ghostbloods have has their stated "greater purpose", and if Thaidakar is a Cult Leader type who created and dictates that purpose for the group, or is simply the current capo di tutti capi who himself rose to that position (possibly from the ground up).

Drawing links between Cosmere works by known character motivation and even language clues (ichor-alcohol is... the blood of ghosts!) to analyze a worldhopping group is fun, but another angle is to look at who they want as members, who they do not want, and what they do to get members to join.

WoBs mention the Ghostbloods "actively recruiting" from non-field-agents of the 17th Shard, and we have some hint as to the kind of people who are 17th Sharders. So, how are they recruited?

When Mraize realizes that Veil must have killed Tyn and taken her place in reporting to them, he tells her that advancing by killing your own superior "is not forbidden, but hardly encouraged" among the Ghostbloods, but also that Tyn had not been made one of them yet (but, being asked to report in person to a gathering of GBs and not just a handler, perhaps hd been on track or close to being one). There's been no worshipful or fearful mention of Thaidakar to Shallan as The One. That seems to kill one aspect of the "Big Cult" idea.

I have to say that that also feels to me like reasons against the Thaidakar Is Kelsier theory. Unless he's changed a lot, while Kell would not be above killing people he considers "expendable others" in pursuit of a goal, he would never tolerate in-group murders. And having set himself up as a god at least twice, he would probably make himself known as The Crewleader to everyone in the crew, down to the new recruits. 

They deal in knowledge and power more so than money. They have been building a cross-world network of knowledgeable and ruthless people, drawing them in with promises of Knowing What's Really Going On And What We Can Do To Direct It. They maintain a low profile.

Vasher mentions pursuing Yesteel as his next goal at the end of Warbreaker,  saying that "a tyrant of some kind" who was trying to "restore Huth and Kuth" has "recruited" Yesteel, who has "resurfaced" with a "new, more potent form of ichor-alcohol".

So, big leap here but building on the Yesteel idea, perhaps the big reveal there (not so big, really) is that Yesteel recruited himself, as it were; that the Manywar was so named because it spanned many worlds; and that Huth and Kuth were factions, not nations of Nalthis (though perhaps the name of their physical HQ footprint on Nalthis), between the Five Scholars.

And that the "more potent form of ichor-alcohol" is indeed the Blood of Ghosts.

Truly, all the pieces fit!

Not for or against any theory, but Kell was willing to kill a member of the rebellion (Bilg) to make a point. Also, Kell would have been angry if he knew Breeze was noble.  

Although, there’s this:

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, I'm going to RAFO that-- Not quite where-- I'll just RAFO it. I'll just RAFO it. Kelsier is not on Roshar, but obviously that's not what you're asking, which is what I thought you were.

Of course, there’s this too:

ccstat

If Kelsier (when Vin knew him) were to join one of the Rosharan secret societies, which one would he choose?

Brandon Sanderson

He would become part of the Ghostbloods, most likely, and would be in charge of them within a year.

 

And, when asked if Kell was leading the Ghostbloods, Brandon laughed and offered a RAFO card.

[Rainier]

On 10/17/2020 at 2:31 AM, Oltux72 said:

Well, Odium has not spoken to Mraize. And I don't think that was out of fear. Mraize has a somewhat exaggerated view of himself.

Or, drawing the attention of Odium is what makes Taravangian the fool in the first place. Mraize isn't interested in getting caught up in the game of gods, and anyone who does get caught up can be no better than a fool.

I'm really glad more people are coming around to Yesteel-as-Thaidakar. Right now he's Chekhov's Realmatic Scholar. Of the Five Scholars, he's the only other one who's unaccounted for. To paraphrase Chekhov, poorly: remove everything that has no relevance to the story. If you say in the pseudo-prequel novel that there is a fifth realmatic scholar biding his time, in the second or third (or fourth, Chekhov didn't really have epic fantasy series in his time) book he absolutely must show up. If he's not going to show up, it should have been Four Scholars.

On 10/17/2020 at 8:13 AM, Oltux72 said:

But that also should apply to Yesteel. Given how the Five Scholars broke up, I have serious problems with Yesteel allowing internal murders. And I wonder why Vasher is still alive.

Yes, I'm with you here, although we can't know exactly what his reaction was to the end of the Manywar. What little we know of his comes mostly from the Warbreaker annotations, and there's precious little there. Although, think for a moment. Five scholars: Vasher, Shashara, Yesteel, Arsteel, and Denth. Shashara, Arsteel, and Denth were all killed by Vasher. Let me repeat: the only person who has ever killed one of the Five Scholars is Vasher, who has killed three of five. Based on the track record, I'd say Yesteel has more to fear from Vasher than the reverse, and we should instead wonder why Vasher has let Yesteel live this long. We've seen inside his head, so we know he's not bloodthirsty or hell-bent on revenge, but still. Three out of five is a damning track record.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/15/2020 at 7:12 AM, Ixthos said:

Those are fair points, but you are assuming Silverlight is just a research body rather than a community containing research facilties. Silverlight could well be a city state with a military, trading hub, court of law. Silverlight could just be a place of learning, but that doesn't mean it only is a place of learning... There isn't enough data to say that Silverlight is only a university or series of universities.

I mean, we know for a fact that it's more than just that. It's a whole proper city. 

Quote

Questioner

Would it actually be enough to get to Silverlight University for an application or do you need to...

Brandon Sanderson

Oh no lots of people live there. It would not just be enough to get there. There are actually people in the city. It's a fully functional city.

Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017)