Voidbinding Theory/Thoughts

[Criggleworth]

I'm sure this is a not uncommon theory, but I believe that Renarin is both a Surgbinder and a Voidbinder. The corruption of Glys allows him access to the Surge of Regrowth and the Voidish Surge of Illumination. That's why he can see the future instead of create illusions. It is manifesting differently.

This would also fit in with how Brandon dances around confirming if Renarin is Voidbinding. 

As far as I can tell, the core ability of the overlapping Surges work the same way for each order- for example, the Windrunners and Skybreakers both use Gravitation in the same manner. Now, the Bondsmiths do seem to be an exception to this, but they seem to be the odd order out in a lot of ways.

I think then, by extension, bonding one of Odium's sapient spren could make someone a true Voidbinder, granting two Voidish surges. It's probably not something Odium ever had his spren try. But, perhaps after learning of Venli and Timbre, he'll start trying it with his troops.

What do you all think? Am I wildly off base?

[Quantus]

What difference do you see between Glys and "one of Odium's sapient spren"?

[Criggleworth]

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

What difference do you see between Glys and "one of Odium's sapient spren"?

To me, the difference is of origin. Glys is a regular spren whose investiture was forcibly corrupted (as far as we know). So Glys is not completely of Odium.

On the other hand, we have the Voidspren like Ulim. They seem to originate with Odium and were not corrupted to be of Odium. I think it's Voidspren like Ulim that would allow a Nahel style bond that grants full Voidbinding. 

[Quantus]

44 minutes ago, Criggleworth said:

To me, the difference is of origin. Glys is a regular spren whose investiture was forcibly corrupted (as far as we know). So Glys is not completely of Odium.

On the other hand, we have the Voidspren like Ulim. They seem to originate with Odium and were not corrupted to be of Odium. I think it's Voidspren like Ulim that would allow a Nahel style bond that grants full Voidbinding. 

Ah, I see.  Im still not convinced the latter category exists at all, personally.  We know Sja-Anat's ability to corrupt sapient spren is relatively new, but as far as I know it may have started relatively recently but still long enough ago to account for those like Yixli and Ulim

[Criggleworth]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Ah, I see.  Im still not convinced the latter category exists at all, personally.  We know Sja-Anat's ability to corrupt sapient spren is relatively new, but as far as I know it may have started relatively recently but still long enough ago to account for those like Yixli and Ulim

Which is totally possible! So far, I'm of the opinion that Odium made at least some of his own spren, such as Ulim. Helps ensure more loyalty than corruption, if the relative freedom Glys seems to have is any indication.

[Vessel of Theory]

On 10/8/2020 at 10:56 AM, Criggleworth said:

To me, the difference is of origin. Glys is a regular spren whose investiture was forcibly corrupted (as far as we know). So Glys is not completely of Odium.

On the other hand, we have the Voidspren like Ulim. They seem to originate with Odium and were not corrupted to be of Odium. I think it's Voidspren like Ulim that would allow a Nahel style bond that grants full Voidbinding. 

Isn't the difference between spren like Glys and spren like Ulim that Glys is Connected to, or of, Cultivation(pretty sure it's Cultivation, but idk for sure), while Ulim is Connected to, or of, Odium? 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:56 AM, Criggleworth said:

On the other hand, we have the Voidspren like Ulim. They seem to originate with Odium and were not corrupted to be of Odium. I think it's Voidspren like Ulim that would allow a Nahel style bond that grants full Voidbinding. 

Ulim is the red spren, and red is sometimes (but not always) a sign of corrupted investiture. So I think Quantus' point stands for Ulim but not for Yixli, namely:

On 10/8/2020 at 9:44 AM, Quantus said:

Sja-Anat's ability to corrupt sapient spren is relatively new, but as far as I know it may have started relatively recently but still long enough ago to account for those like Yixli and Ulim

The colors associated with Odium are red and yellow-gold according to WoB, and hyperviolet by descriptions in text.

Odium can change his form, when he appears to Venli he looks like an ancient Singer, but when he appears to Dalinar he looks like a wizened Shin man. I think it's an important detail because he could have appeared to have Alethi features, but instead, like the spren Yixil, he looks like a Shin.

This leads me to believe that Yixil, who is yellow gold and looks Shin like Odium, is more purely of Odium, and if there is an Odious analogue to the Nahel bond it will involve spren like Yixil.

It would be a pretty sweet power-up for the villain that everybody loves to hate, Moash, that if in addition to wielding the Windrunner honorblade he also bonded an Odious spren and got access to two voidbinding surges.

The honorblade gives him the power to fuel his windrunning with Stormlight, we know from the post Jezrien stabbing scene that he can fuel his lashings with voidlight as well. If he were to get access to direct Voidbinding, I wonder if he could likewise use either stormlight or voidlight to fuel it.

[Quantus]

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Ulim is the red spren, and red is sometimes (but not always) a sign of corrupted investiture. So I think Quantus' point stands for Ulim but not for Yixli, namely:

The colors associated with Odium are red and yellow-gold according to WoB, and hyperviolet by descriptions in text.

Odium can change his form, when he appears to Venli he looks like an ancient Singer, but when he appears to Dalinar he looks like a wizened Shin man. I think it's an important detail because he could have appeared to have Alethi features, but instead, like the spren Yixil, he looks like a Shin.

This leads me to believe that Yixil, who is yellow gold and looks Shin like Odium, is more purely of Odium, and if there is an Odious analogue to the Nahel bond it will involve spren like Yixil.

I cant really explain my thought process without explaining my working theory on the Oathpact, so here it goes:

In OB they mentioned that some Voidspren tend to come in two flavors: "Some of Golden Light, others are Red Shadows".  I think these are different "generations" of Voidspren, similar to how the oldest spren have 4 genders because they predate human influence dominance.  We know per WOB the Oathpact is related to how Odium is ttrapped but not the whole thing.  And we know the more Invested a Shard gets in a world, the more difficult and damaging it is to Leave.  I think the Oathpact trapped the Fused and anything else with significant Odious Investiture, and that in turn constituted way more Investiture than he had wanted to use/sacrifice for two murders, which is why he's "trapped".  Everything since has been him trying differnet methods to Win using the Smallest Investment possible, which is why he used Mortal Souls as raw materials for his army (Fused) and the implied raw material of "UnMade" rather than any more costly original Creation.  So it was Corrupted Souls first, taking the least of his own Power. He made UnMade. Then over time he found various ways to Connect to and/or Corrupt Spren, for Forms of Power, etc. The longer the fighing went on, and more he Invested anything in Roshar, the more integrated he became in the Stormlight ecosystem.  In the beginning his Investiture wasnt part of it so it manifested the Red that means "Corrupted" Investiture throughout the cosmere.  Later on, there had been enough Void power used in the Desolation cycle that it was no longer a Pollution in the Stormlight water cycle, just another element of the new 'normal'. Hence the voidspren having a generational shift from Red Shadows to Golden Light".

17 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

It would be a pretty sweet power-up for the villain that everybody loves to hate, Moash, that if in addition to wielding the Windrunner honorblade he also bonded an Odious spren and got access to two voidbinding surges.

The honorblade gives him the power to fuel his windrunning with Stormlight, we know from the post Jezrien stabbing scene that he can fuel his lashings with voidlight as well. If he were to get access to direct Voidbinding, I wonder if he could likewise use either stormlight or voidlight to fuel it.

What are you referring to here? I looked back at that scene and I cant find any indication that he used voidlight for lashings, just the Honorblade and a sphere for stormlight.