RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[Gilphon]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Given the difficulty soulcasting just a normal human I don't think a random Lightweaver or Elsecaller would be up to the task.  Also Odium has probably known how to kill the Heralds for a considerable amount of time given what Moash did to J.  I don't think killing them is good enough for him.

Oh, right, just remembered a thing: Jasnah can not directly Soulcast Fused. She can kill them pretty quickly by doing stuff like soulcasting the air around them into fire, but they're too Invested for her to be able to target them directly.

So, whether or not it would kill them permanently, it's not a thing Jasnah can do, and therefore not why they're cautious of her. 

[+robardin]

53 minutes ago, Soby said:

Whenever I read these chapters I’m always struck by the importance of Renarin and the role he may play in the story..I don’t know why. I feel like he may be the literal difference-maker in the success/failure in all the plans being made...

Cool, Taravangian has joined the board! Welcome!

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Soulcasting can kill a fused permanently.  Considering how important the fused that are going to be part of the elite strike force are dealing with her is a must.

Eh, I kind of doubt this because surely Elsecallers and Lightweavers of the 100+ past Desolations might have figured this out? Or a Herald? If Jasnah's any example, it's not like the Immortal Words "Life Before Death" somehow forbade them from using Soulcasting to just turn enemies into fire, smoke, or crystal (Jasnah didn't even need to be supercharged to do it - she did it in Kharbranth as a life lesson to Shallan).

[Experience]

4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Yeah, but how would she use that without a nahel bond? A regular person can't hold stormlight, so why would Lift be able to?

Does it change it to stormlight? Or just raw investiture that she uses with her bond?

[Toaster Retribution]

Really enjoyed this chapter. I have long wanted distinct and cool Listener/Parsh/Singer/crab-people characters, and I finally feel like Brandon is starting to deliver for real in that department. So far we have had Eshonai, who was kinda boring, Venli, who, until now, has been kinda boring, a bunch of random parsh with no screen-time from WoR, who we havent seen since, and Rlain, who is ignored on purpose, which doesnt really make him very engaging. But this chapter really made their culture a lot cooler (especially with how it pointed out that a lot of the Fused are basically just tired old warriors, forced to fight an eternal and unjust war for a dark god who doesnt care about them). I really enjoy how the Fused are growing more and more desperate, and that Brandon made us believe that, despite the fact that they seemingly have all the advantages. 

Anyway, Lezian the Pursuer seems like the unhinged bad guy the story needs, to create some chaos and mayhem. And Raboniel feels like she could become an anti-.Jasnah, which could be great. Leshwi is getting some development too, which I defenitely didn't think would happen after OB. 

I do wonder where Nale is though. No mention of him or the Skybreakers, which is wierd, since they might be just as useful as Taravangian when it comes to invading Urithiru.

And also, who else thinks that Urithiru might fall at the end of RoW? We have had three "good guy wins" endings in a row, and having Urithiru fall would be a suitably dark ending to set up the finale of the first sequence.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

Does it change it to stormlight? Or just raw investiture that she uses with her bond?

I think that she could probably make stormlight by eating food, but she could do nothing other than hold it, which would give her all of stormlights regular benefits, although I would guess that they would be dampened at least a little. The suppresor basically puts a lot of interference on the bond. If you have a high enough ideal, then the bond is strong enough to overcome the interference. I would wager that a radiant lower than third ideal would lose the ability to hold stormlight entirely.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I doubt it will play out this way, but I'm kind of hoping Lezian the Pursuer just gets repeatedly clowned every time he takes a run at Kaladin.

And he gradually loses his mind (further), becoming more and more reckless and grandiose in his efforts, until he ends up like Inspector Clouseau's boss, Chief Inspector Dreyfus.

Just mentioning Lezian developing an eye twitch would be a subtle enough nod. LOL.

Edited October 6, 2020 by robardin

[Experience]

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

I think that she could probably make stormlight by eating food, but she could do nothing other than hold it, which would give her all of stormlights regular benefits, although I would guess that they would be dampened at least a little. The suppresor basically puts a lot of interference on the bond. If you have a high enough ideal, then the bond is strong enough to overcome the interference. I would wager that a radiant lower than third ideal would lose the ability to hold stormlight entirely.

So if she got to a high enough ideal she could still hold it?

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Experience said:

So if she got to a high enough ideal she could still hold it?

I think Lift can still hold it. Kaladin could, and it seemed to still be healing him somewhat. Based on the Fused's dialogue, I would guess that a radiant of fourth ideal or higher would maintain access to the surges and their sharblade.

[+robardin]

5 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I do wonder where Nale is though. No mention of him or the Skybreakers, which is wierd, since they might be just as useful as Taravangian when it comes to invading Urithiru.

And also, who else thinks that Urithiru might fall at the end of RoW? We have had three "good guy wins" endings in a row, and having Urithiru fall would be a suitably dark ending to set up the finale of the first sequence.

Yes, I am wondering about the apparent lack of overt use of Nalan and the Skybreakers (that's good name for a band - write that down) and Vyre with the Honorblade... Have they been fighting and killing Windrunners with the Heavenly Ones?

And the comment that Brandon Sanderson made in Reddit (I think it was) about not wanting Team Odium to suffer from "Skeletor Syndrome" could certainly be taken as an ominous sign that Rhythm of War will be like the The Empire Strikes Back with the protagonists getting dealt a few major setbacks.

[Gilphon]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

And the comment that Brandon Sanderson made in Reddit (I think it was) about not wanting Team Odium to suffer from "Skeletor Syndrome" could certainly be taken as an ominous sign that Rhythm of War will be like the The Empire Strikes Back with the protagonists getting dealt a few major setbacks.

Mhm. That comment really makes me think specifically of Lezian. Like his entire schtick is aggressively going after people who have beaten him in the past, and I think he has a pretty low chance of actually managing to kill Kaladin. So I find myself wondering how that's gonna be handled. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Gilphon said:

Mhm. That comment really makes me think specifically of Lezian. Like his entire schtick is aggressively going after people who have beaten him in the past, and I think he has a pretty low chance of actually managing to kill Kaladin. So I find myself wondering how that's gonna be handled. 

The predictable thing would be him going after Kaladin and dying permanently at the end of the book somehow. Therefore, that wont happen.

I wouldn´t be surprised if he, as a way of "taking out" Kaladin, kills one of, or maybe even both, of Kaladins parents. Would certainly be easier than beating Stormblessed himself.

[paperstones]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I doubt it will play out this way, but I'm kind of hoping Lezian the Pursuer just gets repeatedly clowned every time he takes a run at Kaladin.

I think this is when Kal will swear the 4th Ideal. When he comes at his back he swears and plate forms protecting him. He then commenced to kick major butt.

[+Bliev]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

The predictable thing would be him going after Kaladin and dying permanently at the end of the book somehow. Therefore, that wont happen.

I wouldn´t be surprised if he, as a way of "taking out" Kaladin, kills one of, or maybe even both, of Kaladins parents. Would certainly be easier than beating Stormblessed himself.

Yeah, agreed. I think that sounds right. 

Whatever is being  planned with Urithiru has to happen first, but he's unhinged enough that as soon as he's allowed, he's going  to go for Kal. I'm thinking there's only one more battle between them, and it will in the midst of a thwarted Urithiru attack, and while Leshwi is battling him...but this could result in Leshwi's attempting to protect him? I don't know. So many possibilities. The foreshadowing  here with Venli's  comments  about Leshwi's interest in Kal is surely important. 

[The Ryshadium]

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Mhm. That comment really makes me think specifically of Lezian. Like his entire schtick is aggressively going after people who have beaten him in the past, and I think he has a pretty low chance of actually managing to kill Kaladin. So I find myself wondering how that's gonna be handled. 

I'm almost certain Lezian will kill multiple characters Kaladin cares about in his pursuit of Kaladin. Someone from bridge four is dying by Lezian. 

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, Bliev said:

but this could result in Leshwi's attempting to protect him? I don't know. So many possibilities. The foreshadowing  here with Venli's  comments  about Leshwi's interest in Kal is surely important. 

I think this might be a really good prediction. Could defenitely see Leshwi being killed by Lezian while defending Kaladin, and then has her spirit obliterated by Odium, leading to her permanent death (pretty sure Odium can do that, he threatened Turash with it at the end of OB. Also, where is Turash? He was cool). 

1 minute ago, The Ryshadium said:

I'm almost certain Lezian will kill multiple characters Kaladin cares about in his pursuit of Kaladin. Someone from bridge four is dying by Lezian. 

I can defenitely see this, even though I think the most likely Bridge Four-killer will be Moash. Would feel a lot more emotional, since he has a personal connection to the bridgemen, which Lezian doesn't have. And also, Moash is on a killing spree at the moment, and he shows no signs of slowing down. 

Honestly, with both Moash and Lezian running around, Odium defenitely has enough unhinged serial assassins. 

[+robardin]

10 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Mhm. That comment really makes me think specifically of Lezian. Like his entire schtick is aggressively going after people who have beaten him in the past, and I think he has a pretty low chance of actually managing to kill Kaladin. So I find myself wondering how that's gonna be handled. 

No, I think Lezian has the potential to become comic relief inasmuch as his own stated goal is not to kill anybody else until he kills Kaladin. And I don't think Kaladin's gonna die at his hand, nope.

That doesn't mean the overall arc of RoW might not see the Radiants lose Urithiru, or a number of key characters suffer death, defeat, and/or destruction or regression, and Team Odium apparently gain the upper hand. Just that I don't think Lezian's getting satisfaction.

How's this for comic relief: while going after Kaladin Lezian is repeatedly killed by Lopen, but he refuses to redirect his attention from Kaladin because of his vow ("You're next, Herdazian!"). Meanwhile Lopen isn't really out to kill Lezian, he repeatedly forgets his appellation, which really infuriates Lezian ("oh, is that you again? The... Umm... Bursar who's out to kill our leader?" "That's PURSUER!"). And at least once, he kills Lezian more or less by accident, without even realizing he was there.

 

4 minutes ago, The Ryshadium said:

I'm almost certain Lezian will kill multiple characters Kaladin cares about in his pursuit of Kaladin. Someone from bridge four is dying by Lezian. 

Or this. That would re-establish Lezian as a baddie all right. Teft? Skar? Drehy? Sigzil?

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Honestly, with both Moash and Lezian running around, Odium defenitely has enough unhinged serial assassins. 

*Realizes that there are still more slumbering fused* *Flees Roshar in terror*

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

*Realizes that there are still more slumbering fused* *Flees Roshar in terror*

Just think of all the poor "singers" who were awakened from mindless slavery just to become Fused Fodder.

I thought it was interesting that there are so many insane Fused, who just sit around staring or giggling. Why are they even coming back into a physical form? Is it a cycle they cannot control? Like, wouldn't Odium be better off "unplugging" them so that the sacrifices of bodies for housing Fused aren't essentially wasted?

Or are there more of them than before, because of the very long time that has passed since the last time there was a proper Desolation (the "False Desolation" not featuring any Fused)?

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

I thought it was interesting that there are so many insane Fused, who just sit around staring or giggling. Why are they even coming back into a physical form? Is it a cycle they cannot control? Like, wouldn't Odium be better off "unplugging" them so that the sacrifices of bodies for housing Fused aren't essentially wasted?

Or are there more of them than before, because of the very long time that has passed since the last time there was a proper Desolation (the "False Desolation" not featuring any Fused)?

I would guess that they can still fight and take orders, at least to an extent.

[Experience]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Just think of all the poor "singers" who were awakened from mindless slavery just to become Fused Fodder.

I thought it was interesting that there are so many insane Fused, who just sit around staring or giggling. Why are they even coming back into a physical form? Is it a cycle they cannot control? Like, wouldn't Odium be better off "unplugging" them so that the sacrifices of bodies for housing Fused aren't essentially wasted?

Or are there more of them than before, because of the very long time that has passed since the last time there was a proper Desolation (the "False Desolation" not featuring any Fused)?

They are probably not completely useless if Odium still keeps them around. 

Ninja'd by nameless

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, robardin said:

I thought it was interesting that there are so many insane Fused, who just sit around staring or giggling. Why are they even coming back into a physical form? Is it a cycle they cannot control? Like, wouldn't Odium be better off "unplugging" them so that the sacrifices of bodies for housing Fused aren't essentially wasted?

They are on a five-Desolation contract, and Odium will be in trouble with the Fused workers-union if he fires them, even though he would very much like to. But he can't risk a general strike on Braize, so he has to put up with the antics of those insane Fused. 

[Gilphon]

2 minutes ago, robardin said:

Just think of all the poor "singers" who were awakened from mindless slavery just to become Fused Fodder.

I thought it was interesting that there are so many insane Fused, who just sit around staring or giggling. Why are they even coming back into a physical form? Is it a cycle they cannot control? Like, wouldn't Odium be better off "unplugging" them so that the sacrifices of bodies for housing Fused aren't essentially wasted?

Or are there more of them than before, because of the very long time that has passed since the last time there was a proper Desolation (the "False Desolation" not featuring any Fused)?

I suspect the insane ones still have some uses. Like maybe they can still be cajoled into following orders, and the old instincts take over when a fight breaks out, or something like that. I fully believe that Odium would pull the plug on them if they had become truly useless to him.

[LuckyJim]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Just think of all the poor "singers" who were awakened from mindless slavery just to become Fused Fodder.

I thought it was interesting that there are so many insane Fused, who just sit around staring or giggling. Why are they even coming back into a physical form? Is it a cycle they cannot control? Like, wouldn't Odium be better off "unplugging" them so that the sacrifices of bodies for housing Fused aren't essentially wasted?

Or are there more of them than before, because of the very long time that has passed since the last time there was a proper Desolation (the "False Desolation" not featuring any Fused)?

This is kinda why I have a hard time finding Leshwi, or any Fused really, as sympathetic. Their existence hinges on killing other singers, often by convincing them that they're dying for some higher purpose.

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

They are on a five-Desolation contract, and Odium will be in trouble with the Fused workers-union if he fires them, even though he would very much like to. But he can't risk a general strike on Braize, so he has to put up with the antics of those insane Fused. 

1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said:

...spirit obliterated by Odium, leading to her permanent death (pretty sure Odium can do that, he threatened Turash with it at the end of OB. Also, where is Turash? He was cool).

"You will follow me, Turash, or I will reclaim that which gives you persistent life."

"I'm starting to wonder about that. You don't even reclaim 'persistent life' from Kaydash the Giggler, or Lenia the Pooler of Drool!"

"Well, they are still following me. And when you have an agreement with me, --"

"Yeah yeah, you keep it in spirit and not merely in word. So you're saying you told them to sit there laughing and drooling?"

"Well, I didn't tell them not to do that. But I did tell you to follow Vyre. So do it."

"I'd rather drool."

"That is too bad, Turash. Simply too bad."

Edited October 6, 2020 by robardin

[Schneeente]

1 hour ago, StormingTexan said:

I feel like Moash as many have guessed is being set up to be Odium's champion. I mean this has to end with him fighting Kaladin for the fate of humanity right? 

There is a thread about it but I can repeat my objection here as well: What makes Moash more qualified as Odium's champion than for example Nale or a very skilled fused? 

Moash basically learned how to fight 2 years ago and didn't have much practical experience. Compared to Dalinar or even Adolin / Amaram he is clearly inferior? And I cannot believe that the other side has noone who is more skilled than Moash, even if Nale is too... unreliable.  

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Why not?  If you soulcast their entire soul how can they heal?  They just become fire or blood or crystal.  There is a reason Hoid is careful around soulcasting.

My guess is that it depends on the condition of the soul. I can imagine that a regular soul is too comfortable with itself and wouldn't want to change no matter how much stormlight you offer - while a soul that is millenia old and "really has enough" might be ... more susceptible? To finally be done with it? 

It might also depend on how convincing the soulcaster is. I presume there are differences between them, depending on their skill they need more or less stormlight to transform a certain "object"?

 

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

And, like, if permanently killing a Fused was as simple as just throwing any random Lightweaver or Elsecaller at them, they would've, y'know, just done that centuries ago

As I stated above, maybe the 4500 years have made certain fused-souls more ... willing to change? 

 

2 hours ago, Karger said:

It also insures that your leaders are going to be unhealthily concerned with holding power.  Sane people will not forgo normal lives in return for being able to shape the future.

How so? The opposite is true. Someone who is willing to sacrifice literally everything, his movement, his luxury, sex, food, any pleasures if someone who is supreme selfless. That's what you want in a leader, someone who looks out for the greater good, not for his own advantage. 

Edited October 6, 2020 by Schneeente