RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Innovation said:

So the Fused, particularly the Cohesion Ones, can literally build diseases? Is this some kind of Cohesion (unlikely), or are they using a Fabrial with a plaguespren inside? 

I think it more likely she just bread one the normal way.

[Subvisual Haze]

I doubt it will play out this way, but I'm kind of hoping Lezian the Pursuer just gets repeatedly clowned every time he takes a run at Kaladin.

[+Oltux72]

38 minutes ago, Ptolema said:

That said, isn't deadeye a term we didn't see until Ico?

The Recreance cannot have been the first time a Knight Radiant broke his or her oaths. They existed for thousands of years. The phenomenon and the name for it must be older. They just were rare oddities.

[Karger]

Time for a respond to everyone!

2 hours ago, Schneeente said:

The idea that you can only become of the the big decision makers (rulers of your fellow singers) if you sacrifice all your personal ambitions/luxuries to make sure that your decisions are actually based on what is best for your "country" and not for you personally.. ensures that certain types of politicians never reach those high offices.  

It also insures that your leaders are going to be unhealthily concerned with holding power.  Sane people will not forgo normal lives in return for being able to shape the future.

2 hours ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Her concern about Jasnah is yet to be understood, as much as Jasnah is by far the deadliest Soulcaster in the world (and most likely the only one Elsecaller in human army) I don't think soulcasting alone is what is troubling her.  She specified Jasnah oaths might be advanced enough to push through suppression fabrials. Is this in any way related to her order, or is just a assumption her oaths are indeed stronger (4th ideal)?

I think the second.  The suppression does not hurt the spren it just seems to move them back into the CR.  A stronger bond might allow them to push back.

2 hours ago, Valigus said:

I think the most interesting take away from this for me isn’t one others may think of but it’s kaladin and at least his perception in that he is unique, the fused seem to have never seen anyone like him before, they don’t even seem to consider that kaladin could be skilled enough to kill lezian without powers and find it more likely for him to have shardplate then be able to do that. That indicates A level of skill they have never seen before and coupled with leshwi’s fascination with kaladin makes me think something about him is unique in all the desolations some part of his skill and the way he has managed to redound a radiant order quite successfully without any help and the fact that even the fused seem to be aware of his growing legend.

 

also I desperately want a leshwi pov chapter, I really want to know what’s driving her fascination with kaladin

Leshwi PoV would be super interesting.  To be fair to the singers they are not really used to fighting people who come from well lead professional armies.  Also Lezian got over confident and exaggerated lied about what happened.

2 hours ago, robardin said:

Is that another aspect of her "blockage" of OG Shallan? Like maybe the past version of her that she's suppressing, did a lot more with Soulcasting...

Her avoidance of learning soulcasting in OB was a way of dodging responsibility as personified by Jasnah.  We don't know what she has learned since.

2 hours ago, Gilphon said:

They sure seem to be very cautious of Jasnah, don't they? Like they seem to think she's as dangerous as Dalinar. To be fair, she was pretty badass as Thaylen City, but that can't be all there is too it; surely they haven't had to tip-toe around every Elsecaller to ever spring up. And, indeed, surely some of the Transformation Fused are better at Soulcasting than her.

Soulcasting can kill a fused permanently.  Considering how important the fused that are going to be part of the elite strike force are dealing with her is a must.

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

Who else is thinking the Deadeyes might very well be revived in this book with how fast Stormlight plot moves despite it being supposed to cover 10 huge books!? Looks like we might also see the Sibling in this very book!  

I've been rewatching The Good Place, and one of the hallmarks of that show is how fast things move. The creator had a quote, something along the lines of, "We want people to know where the show is going, we just want to get there four episodes sooner than they expect." Brandon is going the place we expect him to, he's just doing it sooner than we expected.

9 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How do you know that the builders are not using Cohesion?

This is what my mind went to, as well. These are Stoneward Fused, but as others have pointed out, each brand of Fused has only one form of surgebinding. Also we would be good to remember that we really haven't seen any voidbinding, and that the Fused don't seem capable of voindbinding, either. Or, maybe, there simply isn't any voidlight because Odium has chosen not to bestow his power in any way.

I agree that the missing surge would be one of the Bondsmith surges, which means either Cohesion or Tension. I think Cohesion is what the engineer/architect Fused are using, so count my prediction as No Tension Fused. We'll see how many other brands we are introduced to.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Rainier said:

...each brand of Fused has only one form of surgebinding. Also we would be good to remember that we really haven't seen any voidbinding, and that the Fused don't seem capable of voindbinding, either. Or, maybe, there simply isn't any voidlight because Odium has chosen not to bestow his power in any way.

I agree that the missing surge would be one of the Bondsmith surges, which means either Cohesion or Tension. I think Cohesion is what the engineer/architect Fused are using, so count my prediction as No Tension Fused. We'll see how many other brands we are introduced to.

Have we seen Regrowth with the Fused?

And isn't their Surgebinding done with Voidlight instead of Stormlight? Certainly when Leshwi used a Lashing on Moash when they first "met", she used what reads like Voidlight on him to do so (a "dark light transferred from her to him").

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Blacksmithki said:

The fused seem confident about their ability to capture the tower with what seems to just be a strike force. Even if they can get to the pillar and suppress the powers of the radiants, i suspect they may not be able to hold it, as it's still a tower full of trained soldiers. It would no doubt be a costly fight, but it would also provide a good opportunity for Kaladin to fight again, seeing as he is one of the most skilled fighters with or without his powers, and would probably stay in the tower even if the army heads off for a battle somewhere else.

If i had to guess what is going to happen, I think the fused will capture the heart of the tower, suppress the powers of the radiants inside, and Kaladin and maybe Adolin will end up needing to lead a force to take it back. This would lead to the humans realizing that they need to learn more about the tower, and the nature of their bonds, as well as giving Kaladin something to do, he can train radiants in fighting without their powers.

It would pretty effectively set up the human coalition investigating the nature of the tower, to stop it from being used against them again. It also makes more sense for the humans to end up in control of the tower then the opposition, and i think we've even seen an interlude or two taking place in the tower?

That is a good theory.  I think that Venli will transport out at a critical moment and offer Dalinar a deal.  Independence for me and the singers that join me in exchange for me granting you your powers back now.  It sometimes is nice that Dalinar cannot break a promise.

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Have we seen Regrowth with the Fused?

The arm altering fused seems to use Regrowth(the voidbringer carpenter).  Also Kaladin fights a fused who regrows arms in OB.  We know they have it too because "not regrowth nor act of Odium"

Edited October 6, 2020 by Karger

[Soby]

Whenever I read these chapters I’m always struck by the importance of Renarin and the role he may play in the story..I don’t know why. I feel like he may be the literal difference-maker in the success/failure in all the plans being made...

[Rainier]

7 minutes ago, robardin said:

And isn't their Surgebinding done with Voidlight instead of Stormlight? Certainly when Leshwi used a Lashing on Moash when they first "met", she used what reads like Voidlight on him to do so (a "dark light transferred from her to him").

Good point. So probably there is Voidlight, and it sounds like it can power surgebinding.

I still think we haven't seen any Voidbinding done yet, with the possible exception of whatever the hell Renarin does. He seems to have one Surgebinding surge and one Voidbinding surge, due to his altered spren. Did we see the voidbinding equivalent of Illumination earlier in the book?

Regardless of Renarin, both the Fused and Yelig-nar use the common surgebinding surges. They don't use any voidbinding, and if you look at the voidbinding chart, there are two symbols within the giant red crystal at the center, and neither of those two symbols are connected to any of the surges around the outside. 

When we finally see voidbinding, I don't think we'll miss it. I expect it to be significant and clearly distinct from surgebinding. I don't know where we'll see it, though. The Unmade have to be connected.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Rainier

[ftl]

Random throwaway reference, describing humans:

Quote

They are cremlings building a nest beneath the shadow of a great temple.

Reminds me of that one quote we land about Dawnshards:

Quote

 

Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above.

which many people guess is from the POV of a Sleepless hordeling.

 

I wonder if the sleepless in Aimia (?) (“cremlings building a nest in the shadow of a great temple”?) will turn out to be quite a handful, just like the humans that the Fused are being so dismissive of here.

[Gilphon]

23 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

How do you know that the builders are not using Cohesion?

Strictly speaking, I can't prove it, but Transformation seems a lot more likely. First, they're called the Ones who Alter, a turn of phase that invokes transformation far more than cohesion. Secondly, soulcasting is a much easier way to make large structures in a short period of time, especially since you have to worry about making huge gaps where the displaced rocks used to be. Third, if Raboniel is any indication, they're more a scholarly type, more of an Elsecaller equivalent than a Willshaper or Stoneward equivalent. Fourth, soulcasting seems more useful to Raboniel's plan than Cohesion would be.

[+Child of Hodor]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

It seems to be a part of singer government.  Imagine if the guy sitting next to you picks his nose.  We have no idea how long you might be stuck here.

Yeah they seem to have decided on it since "The Nine" is subject to change, but them being a encased does not. The "Lady of Pain", who scares Leshwi, used to be one of them and now isn't so she can walk around and such. 

"The Nine" aspect of it must be a thing that happened after the Shards switched sides and the Singers ended up with Odium 9 Fused, 9 Unmade 9 is the "magic number" on Braize.

But the leaders being literally a "pillar of the community" must predate that. I wonder if they are imitating something else, like this is the derivative of how Singer leadership used to be. Were singers at one time actually able to transform into living stone? Were they led by "spirits of the stone" that the Stone Shamans refer to, but probably don't really understand? 

I hope for a really weird origin to this practice. 

[Michael Portz]

2 hours ago, NeutroniumAlchemist said:

 

maybe Navani will attempt to build HAL 9000 and fly to Brazie?

Nice idea, but the role of the secretive deeply philosophical jokester is already taken by Hoid ...

[Gilphon]

34 minutes ago, Karger said:

Soulcasting can kill a fused permanently.  Considering how important the fused that are going to be part of the elite strike force are dealing with her is a must.

What? No it can't. The only way we know of to permanently kill a Fused is Nightblood. Do you just mean that soulcasting doesn't give them a chance to heal with Voidlight? Because there are plenty of ways others Radiants can do that much; Jasnah isn't uniquely dangerous in that context.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Gilphon

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

What? No it can't

Why not?  If you soulcast their entire soul how can they heal?  They just become fire or blood or crystal.  There is a reason Hoid is careful around soulcasting.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Karger

[StormingTexan]

This chapter was awesome. I am so glad we were able to see the Fused plan. It's been interesting to me to think of fighting a force that never really dies. This war could go on essentially forever and the Fused would have a much better chance of eventually winning a long term war. Now we see motivation to gain a sense of urgency from the fused. If only the KR knew it! 

Brandon so far is doing a great job crafting a team of villains. Sure we have big bad Odium but I really like seeing the individualism and separate motives of the Fused. This is getting exciting! 

I feel like Moash as many have guessed is being set up to be Odium's champion. I mean this has to end with him fighting Kaladin for the fate of humanity right? 

It is interesting the concern the Fused have for 4th ideal KR. They mention they will not be able to use the "suppressor" but I would also assume plate blocks their ability to use their stormlight draining  weapons as well. That would be bad for them and I can see why being more aggressive now is vital before more 4th ideal KR are around. 

[jamskinner]

6 hours ago, Innovation said:

Do logicspren assist in making Fabrials somehow? 

Maybe programmable?

[Gilphon]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Why not?  If you soulcast their entire soul how can they heal?  They just become fire or blood or crystal.  There is a reason Hoid is careful around soulcasting.

The reason Hoid is careful about soulcasting is because soulcasting Savantism is really nasty, so it's not a power that he wants to get comfortable relying on. Which is the context of the WoB you're referring to; it was answering why he's more excited about lightweaving than soulcasting. 

And, like, if permanently killing a Fused was as simple as just throwing any random Lightweaver or Elsecaller at them, they would've, y'know, just done that centuries ago. Hell, the Transformation Fused probably would've done that to get rid of the Heralds, if that was all it took. Like entire reason this cycle has continuing so long is that neither side has any way of permanently killing the other! That's the entire reason the Oathpact was formed in the first place; they had no means short of Shardic intervention of ending the war!

Certainly Raboniel would not be bringing up 'what if they stick us all in gems' as a game-changing possibility that proves this will be the final Desolation if the humans have had a far easier way to permenantly end them all along.

[NameIess]

Quote

“You think I could be defeated by a common human?” the Pursuer demanded. “This Windrunner must be of the Fourth Ideal—something I was led to believe had not yet happened. Perhaps our reconnaissance teams have lost their edge, during the long time spent between Returns.”

Quote

“I will lead a team into the tower,” Raboniel said, “then secure control of the Sibling’s heart. Using my natural talents, and the gifts of Odium, I will corrupt that heart, and turn the tower to our needs. The humans will fall; their powers will not work, but ours will. From there I suspect that—with a little time—I can learn much studying the gemstones at the Sibling’s heart. Perhaps enough to create new weapons against the Radiants and the humans.”

Is this a chance for Kaladin to swear the fourth ideal at a properly heroic time and save the day that I detect?

I am genuinely terrified of Raboniel right now. She's at least going to be the main antagonist for this book, and she's the first person we've met that I feel has the potential to last more than one book. Somebody stab her with Nightblood already. 

Shallan is already of the fourth ideal, I am absolutely certain that I saw a WoB saying that she was one ahead of Kaladin at the end of Words of Radiance. I can't seem to find it now though.

 

[Nathrangking]

1 hour ago, Subvisual Haze said:

I doubt it will play out this way, but I'm kind of hoping Lezian the Pursuer just gets repeatedly clowned every time he takes a run at Kaladin.

It would be meme city. It is interesting that from the beginning Lezian is being portrayed as a hot headed egoist. His downfall will likely be his inability to admit that he can lose. I would not be surprised if Leshwi double crosses him and leads him to be imprisoned in a gemstone or what have you. Lift has got to take him out with her shardfork first.

[ftl]

With the whole deal about a giant tower-wide suppressor fabrial, it seems like that might be the opportunity for Lift and Renarin to use their not-Stormlight power sources (food for Lift, or maybe Voidlight for Renarin).

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

And, like, if permanently killing a Fused was as simple as just throwing any random Lightweaver or Elsecaller at them, they would've, y'know, just done that centuries ago. Hell, the Transformation Fused probably would've done that to get rid of the Heralds, if that was all it took. Like entire reason this cycle has continuing so long is that neither side has any way of permanently killing the other! That's the entire reason the Oathpact was formed in the first place; they had no means short of Shardic intervention of ending the war!

Given the difficulty soulcasting just a normal human I don't think a random Lightweaver or Elsecaller would be up to the task.  Also Odium has probably known how to kill the Heralds for a considerable amount of time given what Moash did to J.  I don't think killing them is good enough for him.

[NameIess]

2 minutes ago, ftl said:

With the whole deal about a giant tower-wide suppressor fabrial, it seems like that might be the opportunity for Lift and Renarin to use their not-Stormlight power sources (food for Lift, or maybe Voidlight for Renarin).

Well, Renarin might be able to do something because his spren is corrupted with Odium's investiture, but Lift won't be able to hold stormlight without a nahel bond.

[Experience]

Just now, Nameless said:

Well, Renarin might be able to do something because his spren is corrupted with Odium's investiture, but Lift won't be able to hold stormlight without a nahel bond.

Would she not still be able to turn food into Investiture?

[NameIess]

Just now, Experience said:

Would she not still be able to turn food into Investiture?

Yeah, but how would she use that without a nahel bond? A regular person can't hold stormlight, so why would Lift be able to?