RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[+Oltux72]

31 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

IThe idea that you can only become of the the big decision makers (rulers of your fellow singers) if you sacrifice all your personal ambitions/luxuries to make sure that your decisions are actually based on what is best for your "country" and not for you personally.. ensures that certain types of politicians never reach those high offices.  

That, however, is an illusion. Would they abandon Kholinar if the strategical or tactical situation demanded it? I doubt it.

[IcaroRibeiro]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Eh, she could simply be much more natural at or more practiced with Soulcasting than Transportation, the way Shallan hasn't done much Soulcasting. Or it's one of those Surges that come first for the order - the way that Skybreakers can fly as squires with Gravitation after the Second Ideal, but evidently don't "get" to use Division until the Third Ideal.

Ooh. A thought just occurred to me. It is odd, isn't it, that Shallan hasn't done any Soulcasting except under extreme duress or as a kind of depth effect to her Lightweaving (literally only twice - transmuting a goblet to blood when frantic to get the "fabrial" to work, and the ship to fire then to save herself from the Ghostbloods on The Wind's Pleasure)?

Is that another aspect of her "blockage" of OG Shallan? Like maybe the past version of her that she's suppressing, did a lot more with Soulcasting...

Soulcasting was most likely Jasnah first ability. I guess Jasnah already used transportation the same way as Venli is using now, to move some parts of her body/senses into the realm, but never fully. If that chapter was canonical, Ivory someway managed to get her into Shadesmar, but she herself couldn't do that yet

My theory is that she progressed in the months she was there, that's how she gained her ability to come back. The first time we saw her shardblade was when she was back and used it to try to intimidate Hoid, at this point she was surely on her third ideal, she can get her fourth in her Oathbringer war scene 

[Michael Portz]

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

1) Why would Logicspren be important to Artifabrians?

Obviously to be able to build computers.

[+honorblades]

7 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

She specified Jasnah oaths might be advanced enough to push through suppression fabrials. Is this in any way related to her order, or is just a assumption her oaths are indeed stronger (4th ideal)?

I’m thinking it’s that the 4th oath grants shardplate, which would protect from the suppression field. Similarly to how shardplate would protect from lashings or allomantic pushes / pulls. 

[Schneeente]

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That, however, is an illusion. Would they abandon Kholinar if the strategical or tactical situation demanded it? I doubt it.

That is pure speculation and considering how much they abandoned already that requirement would be but a drop in the ocean. 

[Blacksmithki]

The fused seem confident about their ability to capture the tower with what seems to just be a strike force. Even if they can get to the pillar and suppress the powers of the radiants, i suspect they may not be able to hold it, as it's still a tower full of trained soldiers. It would no doubt be a costly fight, but it would also provide a good opportunity for Kaladin to fight again, seeing as he is one of the most skilled fighters with or without his powers, and would probably stay in the tower even if the army heads off for a battle somewhere else.

If i had to guess what is going to happen, I think the fused will capture the heart of the tower, suppress the powers of the radiants inside, and Kaladin and maybe Adolin will end up needing to lead a force to take it back. This would lead to the humans realizing that they need to learn more about the tower, and the nature of their bonds, as well as giving Kaladin something to do, he can train radiants in fighting without their powers.

It would pretty effectively set up the human coalition investigating the nature of the tower, to stop it from being used against them again. It also makes more sense for the humans to end up in control of the tower then the opposition, and i think we've even seen an interlude or two taking place in the tower?

[IcaroRibeiro]

I think it's time to list all species of Fused we had  named so far

 

Shanay-im, also know as The Ones of Heavens, Surge Gravitation 

Mavset-im, The Ones of Masks, Surge Illumination

Fannahn-im, The Ones of Alteration, Surge Transformation 

Nex-im, The Ones of Husks, Surge Transportation?

We also know Fused who can use Abrasion, but they were not named yet

 

Am I forgetting someone?

Also, what is the surge Fused don't have access to? So far I'm leaning towards Adhesion 

Edited October 6, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro

[NeutroniumAlchemist]

 

43 minutes ago, Michael Portz said:

Obviously to be able to build computers.

maybe Navani will attempt to build HAL 9000 and fly to Brazie?

[Gilphon]

20 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

I think it's time to list all species of Fused we had  named so far

 

Shanay-im, also know as The Ones of Heavens, Surge Gravitation 

Mavset-im, The Ones of Masks, Surge Illumination

Fannahn-im, The Ones of Alteration, Surge Transformation 

Nex-im, The Ones of Husks, Surge Transportation?

We also know Fused who can use Abrasion, but they were not named yet

 

Am I forgetting someone?

Also, what is the surge Fused don't have access to? So far I'm leaning towards Adhesion 

We've also seen a guy who was able to manipulate his carapace to instantly grow spikes and stuff; I believe the consensus is that that was Progression. 

I've been leaning towards Tension being the missing Surge. It does feel like it has to be one of the Bondsmith surges, in any case. 

[+Oltux72]

26 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

I think it's time to list all species of Fused we had  named so far

 

Shanay-im, also know as The Ones of Heavens, Surge Gravitation 

Mavset-im, The Ones of Masks, Surge Illumination

Fannahn-im, The Ones of Alteration, Surge Transformation 

Might also be Cohesion. Or those who teach carpentry and change their bodies do all building.

26 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Nex-im, The Ones of Husks, Surge Transportation?

Unknown.

 

[+robardin]

1 hour ago, Experience said:

That's a cool idea. Now I want to go back and read her flashback chapters to see if there's any hidden evidence of that.

Right. I just went back and re-read the scene in TWoK Ch. 45 where she Soulcast the goblet to blood, and that was the first time she spoke "a truth" to Pattern - before she even saw Pattern as a pattern, instead of a shadowy, symbol-headed figure - when her rather flimsy so-called "truth" was, "I'm terrified."

This was right after she'd decided to "begin the process" of summoning a Shardblade (not in so many words, but in re-reading it, that's obviously what she was thinking of and rejecting as forbidden). And as she did so, waiting the "requisite" ten heartbeats, came the message in her mind: What are you?

Her response, "I'm terrified", is in no wise enough of a deep, hidden truth about herself to count as an Ideal - in reality, simply acting to summon a Patternblade and responding to her spren's question was the same as admitting a pretty deep bond with it (at least the Third Ideal), and that revived the bond enough to allow her to Soulcast (once again). And a hidden part of her knew that.

The second (and so far as I can recall, only other) time Shallan has straight-up Soulcast was to transmute The Wind's Pleasure (into water?) to cause it to sink.

To do so, Pattern said to her, "I will intercede... You have given enough [truth]." And later, he repeats, "I wil,l intercede... Translate. You are not ready." Yet he hadn't had to "intercede" for the goblet Soulcasting to blood.

That first time, she heard the goblet as a "warm voice" saying, "I will change. Give me what you have." that was different from the "cold whisper" she had heard just a bit earlier asking What are you? But on The Wind's Pleasure, she was enough (re)-advanced as a Lightweaver to know she needed to Soulcast, but not to talk to the spren of objects (that, or convincing the ship, a much larger thing cognitively because people think of it as a "her", would be much harder to do?).

[SomeRandomPeasant]

3 hours ago, lightweaver spy said:

I’m glad to finally get confirmation that the Sibling is a deadeye, that’s a thought I’ve had for a while.  I suspect Adolin in the process of reviving Maya will be imperative to the Radiants helping the Sibling live again as well. Let’s just hope they can figure it out before it’s too late for Urithiru... 

The Sibling isn't a deadeye. Raboniel even said in this chapter that the Sibling is essentially a deadeye.  We know from a chapter preface that the Sibling withdrew long before the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths. 

If anything, I think this chapter sets up Navani reawakening the Sibling, becoming the second Bondsmith, and repelling Raboniel's risky assault.

Edited October 6, 2020 by SomeRandomPeasant

[+robardin]

17 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

We've also seen a guy who was able to manipulate his carapace to instantly grow spikes and stuff; I believe the consensus is that that was Progression. 

I've been leaning towards Tension being the missing Surge. It does feel like it has to be one of the Bondsmith surges, in any case. 

I don't think the Fused are missing a Surge, I think they're missing a "Brand" vis-a-vis the ten Radiant Orders - like the Radiants, each "Brand" appears to wield two Surges. So if they are missing what would have been their Bondsmith combo, they still have both Bondsmith surges represented in adjacent Brands.

[Sandra]

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

I don't think the Fused are missing a Surge, I think they're missing a "Brand" vis-a-vis the ten Radiant Orders - like the Radiants, each "Brand" appears to wield two Surges. So if they are missing what would have been their Bondsmith combo, they still have both Bondsmith surges represented in adjacent Brands.

As far as we know, each brand only has one surge. 

[Gilphon]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

I don't think the Fused are missing a Surge, I think they're missing a "Brand" vis-a-vis the ten Radiant Orders - like the Radiants, each "Brand" appears to wield two Surges. So if they are missing what would have been their Bondsmith combo, they still have both Bondsmith surges represented in adjacent Brands.

We never seen any of them using more than one surge, and all of their names refer to a single surge. And, like, in this chapter we have them saying 'we don't need an airship, we have the Heavenly Ones', not 'we have the Heavenly Ones and [whatever the Skybreaker equivalent would be called]', and the new palace was built by the Fannahn-im, not the Fannahn-im and Mavset-im or anything like that. And we have Lezian relying entirely on Transportation in combat, never using Transformation or Cohesion. None of them have noticed that Venli has an extra spren, which would fit with the Nex-im being small in number is none of the others being able to use transportation.

There's... just a lot that implying they get one surge each, and nothing that points to them having more than one.

[+Ptolema]

I agree that the "essentially" implies the Sibling isn't a deadeye, just that the Fused probably say "deadeye" there because it's the closest thing they can think of to explain it. That said, isn't deadeye a term we didn't see until Ico? Though I suppose the Fused could have heard it either prior to the gap between desolations or when they were in Shadesmar. Still found it pretty curious that they chose to use that term.

I really hope now that whatever the "gemstones at the Sibling's heart" are/do gets explored at some point, since Raboniel seems to think them so important.

[+robardin]

4 minutes ago, Sandra said:

As far as we know, each brand only has one surge. 

 

2 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

We never seen any of them using more than one surge, and all of their names refer to a single surge. And, like, in this chapter we have them saying 'we don't need an airship, we have the Heavenly Ones', not 'we have the Heavenly Ones and [whatever the Skybreaker equivalent would be called]', and the new palace was built by the Fannahn-im, not the Fannahn-im and Mavset-im or anything like that. And we have Lezian relying entirely on Transportation in combat, never using Transformation or Cohesion. None of them have noticed that Venli has an extra spren, which would fit with the Nex-im being small in number is none of the others being able to use transportation.

There's... just a lot that implying they get one surge each, and nothing that points to them having more than one.

Hmm. I guess I just assumed they had two Surges each like the Radiants.

[knightedbishop]

There seems to be an assumption that the Fused are speaking with authority when they said at least one Radiant had sworn the Fourth Ideal. Remember, earlier in the chapter the Pursuer said Kaladin must have have sworn the Fourth Ideal since he was able to overcome the suppressor. We know that’s not true. 
 

I think the rest of the Fused took it on faith that the Pursuer is right and Kaladin is at stage 4, then assume some others may be too. Clearly the fourth ideal is a hard one to hit and many Radiants don’t get that far. 

I don’t think the Fused have a definitive information source on who is at what ideal. I don’t see a neat directory listing somewhere. If there is then Venli is in big trouble. 
 

I agree it’s likely Jasnah may have hit the Fourth Ideal, and the geometric pattern we see around her at the end of Oathbringer could be her dismissed plate. Jasnah is well versed at keeping secrets and she’s been consciously on the Radiant path the longest of anyone we know of. I can see her wanting to keep her exactly power level secret. 

[IcaroRibeiro]

31 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

 

Unknown.

 

He used some kind of transportation when fighting Kaladin 

[SpeakoftheDeval]

I really liked a lot about this chapter- the logicspren thing was interesting, my brain instantly jumped to fabrial computers. 

 

Venlis wonder at ancient singer architecture really resonated with me and I was reminded of the time I went to Versailles and I asked my mum, do you think there are any palaces in India that could compete with Versailles? And she went no probably not, but every time I see an old painting that shows a building, I'm like yeah there would be so many palaces in India that could compete with Versailles if they still had their carpets or awnings or murals or gardens, not to mention just if they still had all the rooms and pavilions that were later demolished by the British as punishment or as booty. It's a bit off topic I know, but I really relate to this aspect of the singer experience- we had something amazing too once, but not having it now does cause a moment where you have to wrestle with that cultural insecurity and deal with it, which people of the culture that did the erasing never have to go through.

 

I'm also interested to see how staged a lot of singer politics seems to be- it reminds me of the early centuries of the holy Roman Empire where the culture of public displays of emotion and politics of all decisions needing to be unanimous to be valid led to most decisions being made in back room negotiations and then acted out in public so that all the right emotions and grand declarations of servitude or magnanimity seem spontaneous, authentic, natural and thus unalterable. In singer culture, which values emotion so much, id imagine it's even more important to have planned out what's going to happen in any assembly because you need to know exactly which emotions to broadcast and when by attuning the various rhythms. 

 

Seeing all the fused who have given up their minds also leads me down the Buddhism path- there's obviously some parallels in terms of a cycle of rebirth, but I think these mindless fused might parallel Boddhisattvas in Mahayana Buddhism- they've been reborn enough and become so enlightened that they have fully given up their suffering (attained Nirvana/Buddhahood), but out of compassion for the rest of us who continue to suffer, they continue to be reborn to help us and once they've helped us only then will they allow themselves to fully exit existence. Even if Venli doesn't seem to find their fate attractive, the average singer about town who wholeheartedly believes these ancestors have come to save them will find a way to rationalise why they seem so mindless that fits with the saviour narrative. 

 

 

[+Oltux72]

6 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

He used some kind of transportation when fighting Kaladin 

That is highly debatable. It certainly did not look like an oathgate or like Jasnah.

His spirit/ghost/spren moved from one place to another. But so do spren and other Cognitive Shadows without bodies. In fact so do the Singers who animate Thunderclasts. The only unique ability he has shown was partially dissolving his body and creating a new body. He showed an inability to transport anything but his mind, again in contrast to Jasnah or an oath gate. She was not nude when she met Hoid.

[IcaroRibeiro]

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is highly debatable. It certainly did not look like an oathgate or like Jasnah.

His spirit/ghost/spren moved from one place to another. But so do spren and other Cognitive Shadows without bodies. In fact so do the Singers who animate Thunderclasts. The only unique ability he has shown was partially dissolving his body and creating a new body. He showed an inability to transport anything but his mind, again in contrast to Jasnah or an oath gate. She was not nude when she met Hoid.

Doesn't look like any other kind of surge though. Surges humans and singers uses aren't exactly the same, his inability of transport physical objects other than himself doesn't mean he was not performing transportation

[Gilphon]

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is highly debatable. It certainly did not look like an oathgate or like Jasnah.

His spirit/ghost/spren moved from one place to another. But so do spren and other Cognitive Shadows without bodies. In fact so do the Singers who animate Thunderclasts. The only unique ability he has shown was partially dissolving his body and creating a new body. He showed an inability to transport anything but his mind, again in contrast to Jasnah or an oath gate. She was not nude when she met Hoid.

I've always been very confident that he uses Transportation, and this chapter cements that in my mind even more. The main alternative theory was that it was Transformation; that he was Soulcasting up new bodies, but now we've met the Transformation Brand and they're clearly different. We've also had Venli implicitly not having to deal with any Transportation Fused, and now we have Lezian's brand being called out as rare enough that she'd never seen one before Lezian.

And, y'know, having a Fused's signature ability being teleportation and then that guy not being in the Transportation Brand would just be Brandon intentionally confusing us for no obvious reason.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Gilphon

[+honorblades]

36 minutes ago, SomeRandomPeasant said:

The Sibling isn't a deadeye. Raboniel even said in this chapter that the Sibling is essentially a deadeye.  We know from a chapter preface that the Sibling withdrew long before the Knights Radiant abandoned their oaths. 

I responded to someone else saying essentially the same thing, but I’ll reiterate:

 

People are taking issue with my use of the word deadeye, which is fair, but it’s basically semantics right? We agree on the main point, which is that the Sibling is slumbering, unable to be bonded, and needs to be woken up / revived / whatever by someone. 
 

The term deadeye is used for a spren who similarly is unable to be bonded. It may not be exactly right, but I would argue that term is as close as we can get to the truth right now. 

[+Oltux72]

2 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Doesn't look like any other kind of surge though.

True

2 minutes ago, IcaroRibeiro said:

Surges humans and singers uses aren't exactly the same, his inability of transport physical objects other than himself doesn't mean he was not performing transportation

Well, that is quite ambiguous, If Surges don't have to match what tells us that it is Transportation working differently here?

• dividing body and soul -> Division
• manipulating the connection between body and soul -> Adhesion

7 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

but now we've met the Transformation Brand and they're clearly a different Brand.

How do you know that the builders are not using Cohesion?