RoW Chapter 14 Discussion

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 10/6/2020 at 11:09 AM, SpeakoftheDeval said:

I really liked a lot about this chapter- the logicspren thing was interesting, my brain instantly jumped to fabrial computers. 

 

Venlis wonder at ancient singer architecture really resonated with me and I was reminded of the time I went to Versailles and I asked my mum, do you think there are any palaces in India that could compete with Versailles? And she went no probably not, but every time I see an old painting that shows a building, I'm like yeah there would be so many palaces in India that could compete with Versailles if they still had their carpets or awnings or murals or gardens, not to mention just if they still had all the rooms and pavilions that were later demolished by the British as punishment or as booty. It's a bit off topic I know, but I really relate to this aspect of the singer experience- we had something amazing too once, but not having it now does cause a moment where you have to wrestle with that cultural insecurity and deal with it, which people of the culture that did the erasing never have to go through.

I think your mom was wrong. The Taj Mahal is as beautiful in construction and the surrounding grounds are likewise as beautiful as Versailles. The Chand Baori, Modhera and Rani Ji Kabori stepwells are some of most beautiful buildings ever made in form and function. I've never been to India, but before I die, I would like to visit one of the prettiest spots on the face of this planet, the Rock Garden of Chandigarh. I loved Gaudi's Park Guell, but Chand's rock garden seems even more elaborate and integrated better into the environment. I get your point about the buildings that were destroyed as an expression of imperial power, but Europe too is strewn with the corpses of once beautiful castles and cities. It's likewise tragic that the Taliban destroyed the Bhuddas of Bamiyan and that ISIS destroyed the Temple of Jonah. Hopefully someday humanity will realize that true power is moving beyond conflict and working together to create more beauty in the world.

 

On 10/6/2020 at 0:13 PM, Child of Hodor said:

"The Nine" aspect of it must be a thing that happened after the Shards switched sides and the Singers ended up with Odium 9 Fused, 9 Unmade 9 is the "magic number" on Braize.

But the leaders being literally a "pillar of the community" must predate that. I wonder if they are imitating something else, like this is the derivative of how Singer leadership used to be. Were singers at one time actually able to transform into living stone? Were they led by "spirits of the stone" that the Stone Shamans refer to, but probably don't really understand? 

I hope for a really weird origin to this practice. 

I think, just like the Listener conclave that we saw in WoR where the leaders represented every known form of Listener, the Nine are likewise a ruling body representing each respective brand of the Fused. The fact they the nine have their backs to the gathered assembly and are permanently stationed facing each other, is very reminiscent of the 1st Generation Kandra, rule is by the consensus of the ruling elite. The gathered Fused of high Station are really just their to report to the nine, it's not really a deliberative assembly.

Edited October 8, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Shardsplinter]

13 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

The issue is they are not really sacrificing, the body they take over is sacrificed. 

Obviously their sacrifice isn't as big as if they were mortals, but that doesn't mean they aren't making a sacrifice at all. The body they took over sacrificed exactly the same as any other singer taken over by a Fused: it's life. But the Nine, as "spirits" with a brand (pun-intended) new body, are sacrificing spending their time back in Roshar following their own personal interests and instead are devoting themselfs in body and soul, quite literally, to advancing the Fused as much as possible in the war.

Some people have stated that this sacrifice isn't exactly altruist because they're doing it to hold a position of power. While this is true and they do seem to like a little bit too much being superior to their fellow Fused; I believe they are still putting the interest of their people over their own and their ambition is within logical limits. If not for anything else this makes sense when we see a clear example of what happens when said ambition falls out of reasonable limits and we end up with someone like our dear Lady of Wishes; whose personal interest have obviously outpassed the interests of her kind and in regard to her position upon the Nine "decided it was too… hampering upon her ambition"

 

13 hours ago, FollowYourMuse said:

Knowing Brandon, this is too much of a here is what is going to happen, when has he ever said oh here is our plan and have it go that way?

I agree with you completely. When I was reading the chapter I thought to myself: "Now we know what's happening on both sides of the conflict. Which knowing BS means that we're gonna get lots of details of how everything will happen and then, somehow, when the events actually develope will be even more surprising and unexpected than if we were hearing about'em for the first time" That's just the Sanderson touch. 

The wait until November is gonna kill me.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 10/7/2020 at 8:59 AM, robardin said:

We don't actually know the "victory condition" that Odium is going for here. 

For all we know, Odium's long game is to use the singers to push Rosharan humanity to the brink, and then to offer a Taravangian like deal to spare the remnant for his release. "Either my singers wipe you out, or you free me, I kill Cultivation and clean up the mess of over-invested spren hanging around here, and leave you alone" (on Ashyn, Braize, or some other world, leaving Roshar to the singers as he's probably promised them)

Eureka!

I love this topic and your idea about brinksmanship.  I wrote a bunch of stuff recapping what we know below then at the end had a thought: what if the agreement between Odium and Honor / Cultivation was "You have to stay on Braize as long as one of us is alive and in the system". Or something to that effect he has to either kill Cultivation or drive her off. Maybe that is why he influenced humans to play "the floor is lava" on Ashyn and Tanavast shows Odium trashing the surface of Roshar in WoK "This is what he wants." 

He's struggling to kill her directly so: he's turned the Singers against her, he's killed her husband souring her feelings on humanity, destroyed Ashyn's surface and will destroy Roshar's giving her nothing to grow. I know Cultivation is about more than trees, but come on she stormin' loves plants and great varieties of lifeforms. Odium's on Braize, if she goes there she's dead because she won't win a straight up fight, the other ten planets are gas giants.

She's still a Shard driven by her Intent. With nothing to grow or cultivate the Shard Intent would win out over the Vessel and cause her to seek out planets capable of sustaining life. Her only alternative would be to expend a bunch of effort to make a planet in the system habitable again and that would give Odium a chance to kill her. 

 

Can't Just Be Fused vs. Heralds

For one, why did Tanavast record Visions urging the appointment of champions in a proxy battle if one had already been agreed to? He wouldn't, besides the Heralds were undefeated.  The Heralds and the Oathpact came after the Fused already existed and the cycle of Desolations was never meant to happen, Honor thought the Heralds would stay on Braize forever (OB Ch. 38). That means it couldn't have been a "contest of champions" of Herald vs. Fused. As you point out, it doesn't seem like "we'll let you go if the Singers wipe out humans", The Fused have been mostly anti-genocide, "The Lady of Pains" was kicked out of the nine and was meant to stay asleep, in Leshwi's mind" for the latest cycle because she wanted to wipe all the humans out.  In addition, from Visions in OB we've seen The Fused had humans on their side in some Desolations. 

When Was He Trapped?

We don't even know this. He may have been stuck on Braize since very soon after he arrived in the system. Like before Ashyn was trashed. He had something to do with what went down there per Brandon. He may have had some spren or spren-like minions influence people on Ashyn which nudged them towards destroying the planet in order to get some pieces on the board of Roshar. The humans did "bring the void" with them. He may have been stuck acting indirectly even then. 

The Desolations Have To Matter

It does seem like the Desolations post-Oathpact were always meant to free him, somehow. Stormfather does say "convince him he can lose. Stormfather does say "convince him he can lose. He will take that chance instead of risking defeat again, as he has suffered so often." He has to be referring to Odium losing on Roshar, Stormfather has little knowledge of things beyond Roshar. He doesn't remember specifics about the past on Roshar all that well either. Besides that, Odium hasn't taken many loses outside the Rosharan system, he couldn't find Ambition, went and killed two other Shards, found and killed Ambition then got stuck on Braize. 

Besides that from a story perspective, 6,000(?) years of Desolation cycles has to have been for an important reason. He was trying to accomplish something and it didn't work. I can't see these Shards agreeing to something as intangible as wagering on the corruption of people's souls or morality. It must be something tangible. I like your idea about making one side or the other desperate enough to agree to his plans. It fits with his M.O. both on large scale with Ashyn humans and then Singers and on small scale with The Thrill encouraging people to do terrible things and then swooping in with offers to take away the pain.

Substantial Transformation

Regardless of how, if Odium were to get free he will now have obliterate most of the system to free up his investiture. He's been in the system and for many thousands of years and that must have caused his investiture to permeate the system, along with intentional investment like The Fused, The Unmade and voidspren. He'll need that investiture to take on the other Shards. I guess he'll have to fulfill his agreements, but I'm sure he has some wiggle room in what he promised The Fused and Taravangian.

At the end of WoK Tanavast shows the surface of the planet literally crumble into nothingness and said "This is what I fear could happen. This is what he wants". I'm taking his word for it. 

[Rainier]

13 hours ago, Shardsplinter said:

The wait until November is gonna kill me.

Thirty-nine days. I'm going to start scrawling it compulsively onto the walls around me.

[Valigus]

I really thought it was hilarious how leshwi was like nope lezian you cDNA that Kaladin he killed me first so he is mine. Personally I really want at least an interlude chapter from her POV to explain Her thoughts.

[+Bzhydack]

16 hours ago, Rainier said:

Thirty-nine days. I'm going to start scrawling it compulsively onto the walls around me.

Some of us have to wait also for translation.

[FollowYourMuse]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:29 AM, Schneeente said:

Excuse me? Just to confirm, you are not sarcastic? 

No, in many ways they have achieved the highest level, they are sustained, fed by their "god" and they have the ultimate power.  What they have given up is bodily pleasures, and "earthly" or in this case Rosharan cares, if you look at many of the worlds religions this is the highest level of godly devotion. 

[Infinity Sliver]

Could the Elsecaller Raboniel have been talking about not be Jasnah but Shallan. There are some theories that Shallan is of the Fourth ideal although her memories are repressed and we know that Odium thinks she's an Elsecaller and not a Lightweaver

[Samrat]

I know, out of the blue question....

Was Meleshi bonded to the Sibling??

[Shakakakakaka]

8 minutes ago, Samrat said:

Was Meleshi bonded to the Sibling??

Maybe. Probably. Yeah, I think so. 

Quote

There is … a third sibling. They are not with us.

“In hiding?”

No. Slumbering.

“Tell me more.”

No.

“But—”

No! Leave them alone. You hurt them enough.

 

[Chanarach]

Way late to the party but journey before pancakes and all that.  Everything was way creepy. I didn't think my adulation / simping for the heralds could go higher, but considering the shape the fused are in and the fact they could take a nap between desolations, wow.  Kind of perturbed that Shallan can have 36 personalities and be crazy as a loon, and it's all good, but boy gets a little shell shocked and he's court martialed.  Ok cool, so jasnah and dal get lured away, my disgraced boy swears the 4th ideal during the attack and saves the planet.  Can't wait to read more after work!