Ishnah really is the killer...

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

If you can't wait for the analysis that leads up to the conclusion, and want to know right away who I think Ishnah really is you can click the spoiler below.

Spoiler

IYATIL!!!

First off, I think sometimes the simplest explanation is the best. The character with the best access to Ialai prior to her poisoning and who also has a very explicit connection to the Ghostbloods is Shallan's squire Ishnah. I think it's worthwhile examining Ishnah's actions in Chapter 8, where Ialai was assassinated.

Quote

“Ishnah,” Shallan called, drawing the attention of one of her agents. The short Alethi woman hastened over. She’d been with Shallan for over a year now, and—along with Vathah, leader of the deserters that Shallan had recruited—was one of those she trusted most.

“Yeah, Brightness?” Ishnah asked.

“Take Vathah and Beryl. Go with those soldiers and make certain they don’t let Ialai speak to anyone. Gag her if you have to. She has a way of getting inside people’s heads.”

....

Ishnah and the soldiers—Adolin’s men, hand-picked from among his finest—led the disguised and bound Ialai out the door. The highprincess sagged in their grip.

...

“She must have taken poison,” said Vathah, leaning down. “Blackbane.”...

“I didn’t see her do it,” Ishnah said, sheepish. “I’m sorry.” 

...

Ishnah joined her. “Brightness? Do you need something?”

“She didn’t eat poison, did she?” Shallan asked softly.

“Can’t be certain,” Ishnah said. “I know a little about blackbane though…” She blushed. “Well, I know a lot. My gang would use it on rivals. It’s tough to make, because you need to dry the leaves out, then make a gum out of them to get it to full potency. Anyway, eating it isn’t the best. If you can get it into the blood though, it kills quickly…” She trailed off, frowning—perhaps realizing as Shallan had that Ialai had died very quickly.

Shallan knew of blackbane herself. She’d studied up on poisons recently. Would I be able to spot a pinprick? Shallan thought, kneeling beside the corpse.

Either way, she suspected Ialai had been right: The Ghostbloods hadn’t trusted Shallan to kill her, and they’d sent a second knife to see the job done. That would mean they had an operative among Adolin’s guards or Shallan’s own agents. The idea made Shallan’s stomach twist.

And this person was separate from the spy Ialai supposedly had among Dalinar’s elite? Storms. It was tying Shallan’s mind in knots. “Look the body over,” Shallan whispered to Ishnah. “See if you can find evidence if this was self-inflicted, or if someone else killed her.”

“Yes, Brightness.”

Ahhh Shallan, Shallan, Shallan, such poor judgement at times. Right after having your stomach turn in knots for suspecting your own squires, why have the most suspicious of your squires who was one of the only people who had the opportunity to poison Ialai inspect her corpse for evidence? That's an excellent oppurtunity to remove the damning evidence, namely the gag that Ishnah was instructed to use on Ialai.

This scene is interesting for a couple of reasons, first I think Ishnah's explanation of the application of blackbane contradicts what Kaladin said, namely that to be effective it has to completely dry out. If you take an active drug where the efficacy is dependent on it being completely dry and then turn that into a gum (the only means being the addition of liquid) wouldn't that impair the efficacy of the drug? Also, a gum is a semi liquid state that is in no way fit for injection. It's all about misdirection... The most efficient and covert means of administering the blackbane powder would be to apply it to the gag yhat you shove in the target's mouth. The second interesting point is that Ishnah initiates the conversation with Shallan right after Ialai dies, essentially putting herself forward as the best candidate for investigating the murder that she most likely committed.

What do we know about Ishnah, who appeared rather suspiciously in Oathbringer?

Ishnah contacted Veil ostensibly to join the Ghostbloods, but she didn't approach Veil until she already had Gaz and Vathah as squires. Ishnah was known to be a spy for a minor lighteyes house, whose head, Brightlady Hamaradin, incidentally was assassinated by the ghostbloods and her spys were the chief suspects. Pretty good cv for most trusted squire so far.

Here is her physical description from the Coppermind:

Quote

Ishnah is a short woman^[2] with straight, black hair and dark brown eyes. She usually wears makeup, including red lipstick and penciled eyebrows,^[1] and a havah typical of a high ranking darkeyed woman.^[3]

She is by far the most obvious candidate for the ghostblood spy, which also makes her the least satisfying. I believe she is not truly Ishnah the Alethi spy (or rather not just Ishnah) but instead that she really is Iyatil, the Ghostblood infiltrator extradanoire!

The only defining physical characteristics that we have of Iyatil are that she wears an orange carapace mask that has seemingly grown into her skin and that she has brown eyes. And we know that Ishnah wears heavy makeup and pencils her eyebrows in. Why the heavy makeup? Perhaps to hide the scars where her flesh had grown into the mask perhaps? Why the lipstick? To disguise the only other feature visible beneath her mask, namely her lips.

I really didn't harbor this suspicion util the Mraize hunting moles scene in Chapter 13 came out, but the evidence in this chapter is pretty compelling.

Here are the pertinent Chapter 13 excerpts (emphasis added only once, but holy crap this is important):

Quote

“One of your operatives killed Ialai,” Veil said, trying to pick out what Mraize was looking at. He was staring intently, tracking something out there. She saw only snow and slopes.

“Yes,” Mraize said.

“I don’t like the idea of someone watching over my shoulder,” Veil said. “It says you don’t trust me.”

...

“What is that?” Veil asked. “What did it catch?”

“A mole,” Mraize said.

“A what?”

“Like a rat, but different. You know the word, mole? An informant? Comes from these creatures, which live in Shinovar and dig into places they’re not wanted. 

They’ve made their way across Azir over the centuries, then into the mountains.”

“Whatever,” Veil said.

The scarred man eyed her, a hint of a smile on his lips.

...

“I have news for you,” Shallan said. “Sja-anat contacted me while I was away. She agreed to your terms, and is sending one of her spren to the tower, where it will investigate your members for a possible bond.”

“Those weren’t the terms,” he said. “She was to promise me a spren to bond.”

“Considering where we started last year,” Shallan said, “you should take what you can get...

...

“I don’t need to worry about two spies then,” Shallan said. “Only the one you have watching me, the one who killed Ialai. It’s one of Adolin’s guards, isn’t it?”

“Don’t be silly. We have no interest in men such as that. They offer us nothing.”

“Who, then?”

“I cannot betray this secret,” Mraize said. “Let’s just say that Lightweavers fascinate me, and leave it at that. And you should not fear if I did keep someone close to you. Such a person could be an… aid in times of need. Iyatil did the same for me.”

Shallan fumed. He all but promised the Ghostblood spy was among her Lightweavers, which did make sense. Mraize would want someone who could watch Shallan in places a soldier might not be able to reach. One of the deserters then? Or Ishnah? One of the newer squires? The idea made her sick.

So we know that bonding spren is a key objective of the Ghostbloods, and that they are not the type of organization to have only one poker in the fire. Why settle for just a corrupted Radiant bond when you have an easy path to a true radiant bond? The fact that Ishnah joined up with team Shallan after it was a proven fact that direct association with her was setting others on the path to Radiancy I think is very significant. Also, Mraize explicitly states that the guardianship that Shallan/Veil is under is directly comparable to what Iyatil did for him when he was an untested apprentice. This seems to be a pretty explicit tip of the hand. Mraize seems wryly bemused during this whole exchange, and what better explanation is there to this wry amusement than that his own babsk is the one keeping tabs on Shallan/Veil.

One final point, there is a new nexus of power in ascendance on Roshar, namely the Knights Radiant. With the only stated aim so far of the Ghostbloods being the acquiring of power, it makes complete sense for one of their top and most capable members to try and infiltrate a known group that provides a ready pathway to this power. And just think what juicy truths Iyatil could reveal to her secret hungry cryptic. 

Edited September 30, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Karger]

It all fits pretty well.  Ishnah is on site, her background has been verified by the people responsible for the crime and she has easy access to Shallan.  Maybe Shallan will crack this and reveal it at an opportune moment forcing Iyatil to try and kill her and fail.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Karger

[Chaos]

No spoilers in topic titles, please.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

 

20 minutes ago, Chaos said:

No spoilers in topic titles, please.

Oops, sorry about that, thanks for changing it!

[Aon Tia]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine 

Ishnah is also my number one suspect. I would not be surprised at all if she is the killer. 
She turned up rather mysteriously in OB, I don’t think much due diligence was done to check her identity or background story. Shallan took her iinder her wing simply because she was too useful to discard. It was like Ghostbloods dangled the right goods at Shallan and she took the bait. 
 

Whether she has a secret identity, I never thought that but interesting idea!

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

12 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Ishnah is also my number one suspect. I would not be surprised at all if she is the killer. 
She turned up rather mysteriously in OB, I don’t think much due diligence was done to check her identity or background story. Shallan took her iinder her wing simply because she was too useful to discard. It was like Ghostbloods dangled the right goods at Shallan and she took the bait. 
 

Whether she has a secret identity, I never thought that but interesting idea!

Yeah, former house spy and would-be Ghostblood, what's suspicious about that background?

Also, one thing else that aligns with this theory is that Ishnah quickly falls into the role of mentor/teacher, teaching Veil, Gaz and Vatha how to read a room inconspicuously, training Vatha how to plan an operation, and from the recent chapter apparently training new recruits. Iyatil is Mraize's babsk, and the one time she was teamed up with Shallan during WoR, her role kind of seemed like a driver's ed instructor. The watchful eye of the master, letting the apprentice succeed or fail on their own.

Also, what better position to be in to recruit new Ghostblood Radiants than as the primary instructor of Lightweaver squires? The order has a known attraction to secrets, and that's the lifeblood of the Ghostbloods, gathering and selectively revealing information.

[+robardin]

Ishnah wears no mask.

I cannot see Iyatil going maskless.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

Ishnah wears no mask.

I cannot see Iyatil going maskless.

This is speculative, to be sure, but all we know of Iyatil is that she was born in Silverlight and that she supposedly has Southern Scadrian ancestry (due to her wearing what appears to be a Southern Scadrian Hunters mask). There are a number of plausible scenarios where her most distinguishing feature, her mask, is just that, something she uses to conceal her true identity.

It's rather hard to believe that the culture of the warrior tribe of Hunters exists in anything like it's native form in the Scholar city of Silverlight, but it is likely that there may be a pocket of Southern Scadrian emigres in Silverlight, like Little Herdaz in Sebarial's war camps, where certain traditions are maintained and are generally known about, so it might be assumed common knowledge that Hunter Southern Scadrian wear their masks from adulthood until death.

I think it is dubious that Iyatil is truly a Hunter South Scadrian, unless she has figured out how to magically increase her lifespan. Hunters get their second, permanent mask when they reach adulthood and Iyatil's mask is described as both being made of orange carapace (hence from a creature native to Roshar) and as being grown over by her skin. That would mean that Mraize's Babsk reached adulthood on Roshar, and most likely was a member of either the Ghostbloods or the Seventeenth Shard before she was an adult (how else could she travel to Roshar to get her adult carapace mask), both of which seem highly unlikely. I think it's far more likely that masked Iyatil is a useful disguise.

With the preface behind us, here are the plausible scenarios:

• Iyatil is wearing her mask because she is a practicing Hunter South Scadrian, but she also utilizes the cultural significance of her mask to do tasks unmasked (and therefore perversely incognito). She is shown to a potential recruit with her skin apparently growing into her mask to establish a negative identity between masked Iyatil and Iyatil the infiltrator. The Ghostbloods worship at the altar of power, there are no sacred cows to them, taboo is only taboo for the weak, if breaking a taboo is unexpected and useful then in service of power it will be done.
• She is descended from the Malwish Nation, and accustomed to the idea of changing masks, she sees the utility in adopting a Hunters disguise (which implies a permanent association with one particular mask). When moving amongst Southern Scadrians, this would be an extremely effective disguise because there's a 1 to 1 correspondence between mask and individual, extremely useful if it's necessary to hide in plain sight.
• She is descended from the Fallen, the original rulers of Southern Scadrial, and as above adopts the disguise of a Hunter Scadrian because of its utility. If this is the case, then Iyatil herself might be Thaidakar, and she will wear her final ornately painted mask when all of her plans have come to fruition. I personally think this scenario is very unlikely.
• She is a member of the heretic sect The Deniers of Masks, and would have no qualms about adopting a Hunter persona if it achieves her ends. This is my personal favorite, because culturally she would know about Hunter South Scadrians, and ideologically she would probably delight in the ruse.
• She is not descended from South Scadrians at all, but growing up in Silverlight she was aware that Hunter South Scadrians existed and saw in them the idea of a permanent mask, and realized this was the ultimate expression of conspicuous anonymity. I think this is the most likely, and that Iyatil's probable background is with the stage. Easy to create the semblance of flesh growing into a mask, and we know that Ishnah wears heavy makeup and lipstick and that she pencils in her eyebrows. All the pieces fit.

Edited October 2, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, robardin said:

Ishnah wears no mask.

I cannot see Iyatil going maskless.

Being maskless is a questionable concept for a Lightweaver.

[+robardin]

Iyatll definitely seemed to have the mask "growing into her face" to Shallan when she first saw her, and in any case Shallan wouldn't have known anything about Scadrial Hunters or anything, so it makes little sense to me to present that as a fake out. Fake out of who? The other Ghostbloods?

Same thing with the whole thing about telling the ardents (when she accompanied Shallan into Dalinar's camp to check out the "madman" who was Taln) that if they removed her mask, she'd have to kill them. "That did not seem to be part of the act." Nobody on Roshar would know that her removing mask would be a mortal offense so who would that pretense be for, if it was a fakeout?

Besides, no reader of SA as a standalone work would pick up on that anyway (if you consider it intended as a fakeout of the reader). In fact you have to have read The Bands of Mourning specifically, of all Cosmere works, to pick up on that detail.

And of course the whole "are you hunter, or prey?" dichotomy that Mraize espouses sure sounds like it'd be derived from the Scadrian Hunter culture, as inculcated in him by his babsk.

So the simplest view is that that aspect of Iyatil is one of those "cross-Cosmere background detail to add depth to the character while giving an easter egg to the right subset of readers" type of things; that Iyatil really is a sincere Hunter style mask-wearer; and that would seem to rule her out as being Ishnah.

That doesn't mean Ishnah isn't someone with a possibly false backstory and hidden allegiance - she could well be a GB agent - I just don't think she's Iyatil.

Edited October 2, 2020 by robardin

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

On 10/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, robardin said:

Iyatll definitely seemed to have the mask "growing into her face" to Shallan when she first saw her, and in any case Shallan wouldn't have known anything about Scadrial Hunters or anything, so it makes little sense to me to present that as a fake out. Fake out of who? The other Ghostbloods?

The mask could be a fake, Iyatil would be wearing it not to impersonate a Southern Scadrian (who on Roshar would even know or care what a Southern Scadrial Hunter is) but rather because she saw in the Hunter's mask the ultimate means of hiding her true identity, namely a mask that seems unremovable. A permanent mask is an apparent contradiction of terms, and it does imply heavily that there is something important to hide. 

On 10/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, robardin said:

Same thing with the whole thing about telling the ardents (when she accompanied Shallan into Dalinar's camp to check out the "madman" who was Taln) that if they removed her mask, she'd have to kill them. "That did not seem to be part of the act." Nobody on Roshar would know that her removing mask would be a mortal offense so who would that pretense be for, if it was a fakeout?

If she is invested in the ruse of her identity being masked Iyatil, then the fact that her true identity has been compromised is just as believable a motive (or more believable really) to kill the people who have seen her true face rather then killing them because of some Southern Scadrian Hunter taboo. Think Kaiser Sose.

On 10/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, robardin said:

Besides, no reader of SA as a standalone work would pick up on that anyway (if you consider it intended as a fakeout of the reader). In fact you have to have read The Bands of Mourning specifically, of all Cosmere works, to pick up on that detail.

I read WoR before I read Bands of Mourning, and without knowing anything about Southern Scadrian Hunters, Iyatil's mask was incredibly effective at establishing her alien menace. The fact that her skin was seemingly growing into the mask conveys (without additional cosmere knowledge being necessary) that she never takes off her mask, and just made her scarier and more mysterious. The idea that the mask is her true identity is established by the symbol itself, but I think that it's very compelling for this permanent mask to be a subterfuge. And this deception would be incredibly useful if her role in the ghostbloods is to be the deep cover operative that watches new inductees. Also, adopting the mask of Ishnah she would have a clear path towards becoming a Lightweaver, which is an explicitly stated goal of the Ghostbloods.

On 10/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, robardin said:

And of course the whole "are you hunter, or prey?" dichotomy that Mraize espouses sure sounds like it'd be derived from the Scadrian Hunter culture, as inculcated in him by his babsk.

I actually don't agree with this. I think the whole hunter vs prey thing is the defining aspect of Mraize's world view, in a world were morality is an axis that is of no concern the only thing that matters is power. And the proof of the power comes in its application, the strong are the hunters the weak are the prey.

Iyatil (admittedly she was pretty taciturn during the Amaram base camp infiltration) doesn't espouse any such ideology, she seems more like a spider that watches and waits for the right time to apply her power. The characters actions are different because of fundamentally different world view.

On 10/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, robardin said:

So the simplest view is that that aspect of Iyatil is one of those "cross-Cosmere background detail to add depth to the character while giving an easter egg to the right subset of readers" type of things; that Iyatil really is a sincere Hunter style mask-wearer; and that would seem to rule her out as being Ishnah.

I don't see that it follows that that is the simplest view. While reading WoR I wondered if her seemingly permanent mask was itself just a cover for a different secret identity. The idea of a permanent mask is cool and bone-chilling in and of itself, but there's also the possibility that it is just a mask.

On 10/2/2020 at 6:48 AM, robardin said:

That doesn't mean Ishnah isn't someone with a possibly false backstory and hidden allegiance - she could well be a GB agent - I just don't think she's Iyatil.

I agree that Ishnah isn't necessarily Iyatil, but the fact that Ishnah wears heavy makeup, pencils her eyebrows and wears lipstick makes me suspicious that the persona Ishnah is just a mask. Whether the true identity of Ishnah is Iyatil or some other member of the Ghostbloods doesn't really matter, but I do think it would be a compelling twist if it turned out to be Iyatil.

Edited October 3, 2020 by hoiditthroughthegrapevine

[Elsecaller_17.5]

On 10/1/2020 at 8:49 PM, robardin said:

Ishnah wears no mask.

I cannot see Iyatil going maskless.

I can't see someone so high up in the GB being bothered be such a tradition.

I agree that Ishnah is out most likely culprit and her really being Iyatil would be an interesting twist. 

[+robardin]

3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I can't see someone so high up in the GB being bothered be such a tradition.

I agree that Ishnah is out most likely culprit and her really being Iyatil would be an interesting twist. 

I agree, except that the twist would only even really BE a twist in the first place if you were already immersed in what it means for a Southern Scadrian to be unmasked (plus the off-screen mention by Allik of the hardcore "Hunters") from reading The Bands of Mourning, which doesn't seem to be something Brandon would do at this juncture if ever.

Otherwise, for any other readers it'd be like, "HAHA! And Ishnah was Iyatil all along! Who... Wait for it... Removed her mask to pull off the disguise instead of putting one on!"

"Okay...?"

"Yeah! Didn't think she'd do that, huh? How about THEM apples!"

"...What apples?"

"EXACTLY!"

[Elsecaller_17.5]

6 minutes ago, robardin said:

I agree, except that the twist would only even really BE a twist in the first place if you were already immersed in what it means for a Southern Scadrian to be unmasked (plus the off-screen mention by Allik of the hardcore "Hunters") from reading The Bands of Mourning, which doesn't seem to be something Brandon would do at this juncture if ever.

Otherwise, for any other readers it'd be like, "HAHA! And Ishnah was Iyatil all along! Who... Wait for it... Removed her mask to pull off the disguise instead of putting one on!"

"Okay...?"

"Yeah! Didn't think she'd do that, huh? How about THEM apples!"

"...What apples?"

"EXACTLY!"

Ok, I'm seeing your point more now.

Still if Brandon wants to pull off the story of the Cosmere he has to start assuming his readers have read it all eventually. 

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

I agree, except that the twist would only even really BE a twist in the first place if you were already immersed in what it means for a Southern Scadrian to be unmasked (plus the off-screen mention by Allik of the hardcore "Hunters") from reading The Bands of Mourning, which doesn't seem to be something Brandon would do at this juncture if ever.

Otherwise, for any other readers it'd be like, "HAHA! And Ishnah was Iyatil all along! Who... Wait for it... Removed her mask to pull off the disguise instead of putting one on!"

"Okay...?"

"Yeah! Didn't think she'd do that, huh? How about THEM apples!"

"...What apples?"

"EXACTLY!"

I think that the fact that the mask was described as having her skin growing over it establishes clearly that the mask is permanent, the idea of a permanent mask is not dependent upon knowledge of some obscure tribe on a different planet. Skin is growing over her mask, hence she can't apparently remove it. Removing a seemingly permanent mask, to basically don a mask of being unmasked is in and of itself a compelling twist. The threat to kill anyone who sees her unmasked is likewise not dependent on knowledge of Southern Scadrial culture, and if viewed without the bias of being a cultural significant detail to an alien culture, the threat is even more menacing and hints at a secret about her true identity that she is willing to kill to keep.

[Schneeente]

I think it is more likely that IF Ishnah is the killer, it went like that:

Before Shallan ever accepted Ishnah into her ranks, she asked the Ghostbloods to do a "background check" on her. That would have been the perfect timing/opportunity to approach her - before she starts to feel "sympathetic" to Shallan. And the GB doing that wouldn't be far fetched either, it's little effort but potentially huge return. So why not. 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Schneeente said:

 

Before Shallan ever accepted Ishnah into her ranks, she asked the Ghostbloods to do a "background check" on her.

No she did not.  The GBs did that on their own initiative(or said they did).

[Schneeente]

Well, the point is the same. They could have approached her before she began "tying herself" to Shallan. It's much easier to recruit a spy if they don't have the feeling that they are betraying someone. 

[+Bliev]

I think that this is a really cool theory.

It would be cool if the real Ishnah was incapacitated and Iyatil is impersonating her with a Lightwoven disguise, put there by squire or another Lightweaver they've co-opted. It would further explain Mraize's comment about being intrigued by what Lightweavers can do...but wouldn't negate his implication that the GB have no Radiants. 

Are they all in disguise during this time anyways? I'll have to go look at it...

Also, Mraize all but promises that this mole would be helpful to Shallan if she needed them, not that they would be antagonistic, necessarily. what does that portend?

[Zedseayou]

I am generally in agreement that Ishnah makes the most sense as the killer of Ialai/GB spy. I am not so convinced that she is Iyatil, despite the chapter 13 Mraize mention. I don't see Ishnah being Iyatil as critical to the idea of Ishnah being the spy, nor does it feel narratively important/necessary. In particular, the payoff seems low; most of the interesting aspect of the twist is Shallan discovering a traitor/spy in her squires rather than who that spy is. It's not so much more enticing to have the secret identity of the hidden spy character be... a different character with a previously minor role who we don't know much about. Unveiling a mystery to discover another mystery.

My sole nit/question is this:

On 9/29/2020 at 8:19 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Ishnah contacted Veil ostensibly to join the Ghostbloods, but she didn't approach Veil until she already had Gaz and Vathah as squires.

Unless you don't mean Radiant squires, the timeline is off here, right? Nominally, Ishnah saw Shallan use the GB symbol, and then approaches her in the tower (servant disguise) pretty soon after. Vathah doesn't manifest any Radiance until Kholinar, after the entire training sequence. Of course, Mraize knows Shallan is a Radiant at this point, but would they know that people close to her could become Radiants too? Perhaps just based on analogy from the Windrunners...

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

12 hours ago, Zedseayou said:

I am generally in agreement that Ishnah makes the most sense as the killer of Ialai/GB spy. I am not so convinced that she is Iyatil, despite the chapter 13 Mraize mention. I don't see Ishnah being Iyatil as critical to the idea of Ishnah being the spy, nor does it feel narratively important/necessary. In particular, the payoff seems low; most of the interesting aspect of the twist is Shallan discovering a traitor/spy in her squires rather than who that spy is.

I agree with you that Ishnah is the most likely culprit, but I guess it doesn't seem satisfying because she is so clearly the obvious suspect. I personally don't want it to be Formless, Gaz, or Vatha, so the way to still achieve a satisfying twist is to have it be the obvious suspect but then have that suspect be more than she first appears.

Thinking about it more though, it does seem like a ham fisted means of assassinating Ialia if Ishnah is really Iyatl, basically killing her in a manner where she is left as the prime suspect.

I really don't want it to be Formless. I'm just barely on board with Shallan's DID and if she has a functional Ghostblood assassin alter I think it might just ruin for me what has been one of my favorite characters in fiction. Already the uncertainty and self-doubt about whether she has unknowingly killed Ialai is almost too much. There's no moral agency if there's no volitional control of one's actions. It's a circle that can't be squared.

I'm a fan of redemption arcs, so I don't want it to be Gaz or Vatha either, which leaves me hoping it's Ishnah, but also being somewhat unsatisfied with how obvious that would be, unless there were some sort of twist.

12 hours ago, Zedseayou said:

Unless you don't mean Radiant squires, the timeline is off here, right? Nominally, Ishnah saw Shallan use the GB symbol, and then approaches her in the tower (servant disguise) pretty soon after. Vathah doesn't manifest any Radiance until Kholinar, after the entire training sequence. Of course, Mraize knows Shallan is a Radiant at this point, but would they know that people close to her could become Radiants too? Perhaps just based on analogy from the Windrunners...

It's been awhile since I reread Oathbringer, I thought that Vatha was showing signs of protoradiancy before Shallan was contacted by Ishnah, but even with that not being the case, it's a feature of how Knights Radisnt operate that they take on squires and their squires have a higher likelihood of attracting spren to form Nahel bonds. The Ghostbloods, as an organization that specialize in information, I'm sure would have been aware of this.

[Calderis]

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine while I'm not sure I agree with your theory, I do want to point out one thing that supports it.

On 9/29/2020 at 8:19 PM, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

first I think Ishnah's explanation of the application of blackbane contradicts what Kaladin said, namely that to be effective it has to completely dry out.

It's actually not a contradiction. She's talking about making a version more potent than it is naturally to make it take effect more quickly. We saw what fully dried leaves do with Lin Davar, and it's not nearly so quick or effective. 

We have seen exactly this method though. On the darts that Iyatil used to try and kill Amaram.

 

Quote

He found Kaladin out in the monastery courtyard, calling for him. Dalinar approached, then handed him the little dart. “Ever seen anything like this before, Captain?”
Kaladin shook his head. He sniffed at the tip, then raised his eyebrows. “That’s poison on the tip. Blackbane derived.”
“Are you sure?” Dalinar asked, taking the dart back.
“Very. Where did you find it?”
“In the chamber that housed the Herald.”

 

Edited October 13, 2020 by Calderis

[ftl]

Ishnah being the assassin is only "obvous" to people who hang out on forums and cross-reference things on wikis. I'm 95% sure that people that just read the books straight through, one after the other, will have long forgotten the things that make it "obvious" its Ishnah - it'll just seem like good foreshadowing after it's revealed.

I'm fully on the Ishnah-as-killer train!

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

5 hours ago, Calderis said:

@hoiditthroughthegrapevine while I'm not sure I agree with your theory, I do want to point out one thing that supports it

Thanks Cal, all good points about the blackbane and that's interesting about Iyatl's dart.

I'm not sure I agree with my theory either, it's just I really don't like the alternatives. Kinda fun to speculate too.

4 hours ago, ftl said:

Ishnah being the assassin is only "obvous" to people who hang out on forums and cross-reference things on wikis. I'm 95% sure that people that just read the books straight through, one after the other, will have long forgotten the things that make it "obvious" its Ishnah - it'll just seem like good foreshadowing after it's revealed.

I'm fully on the Ishnah-as-killer train!

Yeah, I get what you're saying, but it still seems too obvious to me.

I really hope this is resolved before the trip to Lasting Integrity, it's an exciting enough plotline that it doesn't need the ratcheted up tension of wondering who can be trusted.

[+Bzhydack]

14 hours ago, hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

I'm a fan of redemption arcs, so I don't want it to be Gaz or Vatha either, which leaves me hoping it's Ishnah, but also being somewhat unsatisfied with how obvious that would be, unless there were some sort of twist.

I very like your theory!

One flaw, that many poit out, is that Iyatil told us, that she must kill anyone who see her without mask, but is solution tu this.

Maybe Ishnah in WoR and Ihnah now isnt the same person? She try to contact Ghostbloods, so they were awere of her, so they will know if she starts becoming Radiant. Maybe Iyatil, who is from Scadrial, has knowledge about Hemalurgy. What if she killed Ishnah with hemalurgic spike and stealed her Radiant Lightweaver powers, and then imporsinte her?