RoW Chapter 13 Discussion

[Michael Portz]

13 hours ago, Bliev said:

Character-wise, Shallan is hardly ever shocked, either--her ravenous curiosity is a pretty strong character trait that Mraize definitely knows how to exploit. 

And one should take into consideration, that Shallan has so many problems with herself, that I doubt, that she has any kind of measure, when she should REALLY be surprised. Anything happens / is told what COULD worry an average person => character switch time for Shallan!

[bdoble97]

22 hours ago, I Am A Fish said:

Who do people think the spy is?

Shallan 4th. Personality/ formless

[+Child of Hodor]

21 hours ago, robardin said:

Hmmm, I kind of doubt that Restares=Kalak would be seeking to bring back the Voidbringers and trigger another Desolation, eh? Which he apparently was, as the head of the Sons of Honor.

Yeah, it doesn't make a lot sense if Restares was trying to return the Voidbringers, although Gavilar thought Restares may be the one who sent Szeth,  That speaks to a disagreement. Sons of Honor with Gavilar joining and basically co-opting the group may have had different goals than they did before. Mraize thinks Restares was the founder of the group.

There is, of course, the little issue of Gavilar and Kalak meeting in person in the prologue and Gavilar clearly knowing Kalak and Nale are Heralds. It's possible Gavilar never met Restares or never met him when Restares wasn't under a mask for their goofy initiation rituals and doesn't know Kalak =  Restares. 

The theory sprang to mind because I had previously been speculating that the reason the Honorspren aren't bonding more radiants is that someone is hanging out at Lasting Integrity influencing them, maybe a Herald or Unmade. If Restares is a Herald he'd have to be either Kalak or Ishar because the other three are dead, hanging out with Ash and Jasnah or siding with the Fused and while limiting the # of Windrunners is helpful for the Fused, Nale was already the head of the Skybreakers secret society, narratively it doesn't seem like he should be running two for all those years.  Ishar is still running a nation as far as we know so he's busy.  

It could be someone else. Mraize telling Shallan he's not necessarily ordering her to kill Restares "you'll know what to do" when she gets there makes me think Restares is something special. Herald or spren or something that needs to be dealt with another way.

Unless it's someone Shallan has known personally for a long time which will help her in connecting with them. Which is a little too contrived for me on paper, but could work in practice (this being a book "in practice" is also on paper ) if the reveal is well done and Brandon's usually are. 

[agrabes]

15 hours ago, Gilphon said:

You've misunderstood my point completely. I was absolutely writing from the perspective of what was new information to the characters. And I would, in fact, argue that Azure made her identity pretty obvious- obvious enough that I, who at the time had not read Warbreaker and had fairly limited Cosmere knowledge- put the pieces together without much effort. My mind was going 'okay, she's obviously from another world; she's all but outright said that and specifically denied every other reasonable explanation for what her deal could be, but which one? She doesn't match anything I'm aware of, and it seems like that weird sword Szeth has is from the same place.'

And Mraize is pretty much doing that exact same thing here. He stops just short of saying that there are other worlds out there. He gets close enough to exclude every other reasonable possibility, but doesn't actually say it: He says that they're places you can reach from Shadesmar, and heavily implies that they're further away than Ashyn and Braize, but doesn't say anything more than that. It's still possible for a casual reader to think that Scadrial and Nalthis are odd and remote spren communities out there somewhere, although the implications say different. That's why I'm saying there isn't actually anything truly game-changing from the character's perspective here. 

And, indeed, I don't think the idea of other worlds being out there somewhere is that shocking to the characters. Like when the revelation happened at the end of OB, there was shock, yeah, but it wasn't at the idea of other worlds existing, or travel between them being possible, it was at the idea that humans had stolen Roshar from the Singers. Like Dalinar goes as far as to admit he had seriously considered the idea, but had just been hoping that humans start in Shinovar, and he's not exactly on the front lines of scientific thoughts. 

Everything kind of points 'familiar with the concept in principle, but ignorant of specifics' being the general Rosharan attitude towards that sort of thing. There's a WoB somewhere that I can't be bothered to find right now about how they'd shrug and say 'yeah, probably' if asked if they thought Roshar's moons were inhabited. And the same sort of thing is true elsewhere, by the way- there's a brief moment in Bands of Mourning where we see the characters jump to the conclusion that the Southerns are from another world. It kinda seems there have been enough unsubtle worldhoppers in the Cosmere's history that the idea of other worlds existing and behind potentially visitable has seeped into the general cultural consciousness. 

I feel like you are infusing your own perspective onto things.  If it's obvious to you, you seem to feel it must be obvious to the characters.  I disagree.  I'm starting from the assumption (which may be my own bias creeping in) that the Rosharans will assume by default that people are -not- from other worlds.  This makes sense based on my memory of what has occurred in the books.  For example, Kaladin knows that Azure is strange, but he assume she's from a far away place with strange magic - not another planet.  She puts everything she does in Rosharan terms - calls her weapon a shardblade, even though it isn't.  She even says she's from another land, not another world or another planet.

I can't think of a single native Rosharan character who ever considered the idea that there could be other worlds that are inhabited by people, prior to being told in OB that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn.  Even that is most likely understood in a religious context - the Vorin religion teaches that humans were expelled from the Tranquilline Halls so most of the characters would view it as more of a transfer from one spiritual plane of existence to another.  I can't think of a single instance of any native Rosharan POV character speculating that another character is likely to be from another world or considering the possibility that people from other worlds may be among them.  I'll probably start a reread in October so maybe I'll pick up on a few things I missed in the past, but as of now I don't remember any instances native Rosharans thinking about other words.

But at the end of the day, it's just personal taste.  I don't like the way this (may) be going down in RoW.  It's (imo) one of the few flaws in Sanderson's writing.  He builds up the big concepts and secrets like worldhoppers external to the actual main books through things like epigraphs, easter eggs, and fan interactions until they are old news to fans.  Then when it's time for the characters to actually learn about those things in world he doesn't make it a big deal.  Massive ideas and concepts are just accepted by the characters with a shrug and then everyone moves on.  He even did this in the WoT books he wrote.  For some people (and I think probably Sanderson himself) the fact that the characters now know this information and can use it for cool battles and schemes is the payoff.  I think a lot of the reason Sanderson does this is to keep the plot moving along, rather than spending time on reactions of characters learning things.  There's nothing wrong with liking things that way.  It's just not what I personally prefer.  It will probably bug me for a while, but I'll get over it.

[+Bliev]

On Reddit last night, Brandon kind of confirmed (to some degree) Mraize's and the GB stated purpose, in response to a question about Lift and how she could be a renewable battery of stormlight--so why isn't Mraize interested in her?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/j1yqk5/row_rhythm_of_war_chapter_13/g75a4z3/?context=3

Quote

He is aware of Lift, and is very curious about her. But she isn't able to produce on the scale he wants. One person who could charge batteries by touching them would certainly be cool--but if you're goal is to (say) dominate and monopolize the battery distribution to all of America, that person would be more of a curiosity (scientific implications aside) than a huge asset.

This suggests that global/cosmic economic domination is the true goal here. This is interesting, because it pits a more "base" motivation--money--against the good v evil paradigm that is prompting a global war on Roshar. I love with Brandon does this--demonstrates that not everyone is at all worried about a war...even more people (I would have included WOR-era Sadeas in this too) are worried about their own personal money/power/respect (and if anyone just sang those words as if they were from The Lox song, then that was completely intended.) lol 

[Karger]

31 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I can't think of a single native Rosharan character who ever considered the idea that there could be other worlds that are inhabited by people, prior to being told in OB that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn.  Even that is most likely understood in a religious context - the Vorin religion teaches that humans were expelled from the Tranquilline Halls so most of the characters would view it as more of a transfer from one spiritual plane of existence to another.  I can't think of a single instance of any native Rosharan POV character speculating that another character is likely to be from another world or considering the possibility that people from other worlds may be among them.  I'll probably start a reread in October so maybe I'll pick up on a few things I missed in the past, but as of now I don't remember any instances native Rosharans thinking about other words.

So modern Rosharan scholars do believe that the world is round although mythology and religion have not caught up yet.  As such they probably know about planetary movements including the moon and given the background of cosmere aware individuals I think it likely that the hypothetical existence of other inhabited planets is known in some academic circles.  As far as ordinary people are concerned.  I do not think that the idea of far away lands with weird customs, technology, and even magic are particularly surprising.

31 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Then when it's time for the characters to actually learn about those things in world he doesn't make it a big deal.  Massive ideas and concepts are just accepted by the characters with a shrug and then everyone moves on

That is kind of how the real world works though.  The idea of a single all powerful deity was not even a big deal in a very small part of the roman empire and took centuries to spread.  Jesus's career was not exactly noteworthy at the time.  Jon Snow made the first practical use of the germ theory of disease in the 16th century and no one really took note.  Giordano Bruno, the guy who actually proposed an infinite universe teaming with, life was actually seen as just another political dissident and his works were largely ignored.  People don't always take note of earthshaking developments.

Edited September 30, 2020 by Karger

[Raphaborn]

17 minutes ago, Bliev said:

On Reddit last night, Brandon kind of confirmed (to some degree) Mraize's and the GB stated purpose, in response to a question about Lift and how she could be a renewable battery of stormlight--so why isn't Mraize interested in her?

I think they are interested in her, but her ability is not easily replicable. He needs Stormlight outside of Roshar on a large scale.

[Potus]

34 minutes ago, Bliev said:

On Reddit last night, Brandon kind of confirmed (to some degree) Mraize's and the GB stated purpose, in response to a question about Lift and how she could be a renewable battery of stormlight--so why isn't Mraize interested in her?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/j1yqk5/row_rhythm_of_war_chapter_13/g75a4z3/?context=3

This suggests that global/cosmic economic domination is the true goal here. This is interesting, because it pits a more "base" motivation--money--against the good v evil paradigm that is prompting a global war on Roshar. I love with Brandon does this--demonstrates that not everyone is at all worried about a war...even more people (I would have included WOR-era Sadeas in this too) are worried about their own personal money/power/respect (and if anyone just sang those words as if they were from The Lox song, then that was completely intended.) lol 

Reading that makes me assume that Mraize would be most interested in Dalinar's perpendicularity ability. However I don't think that Dalinar will be able to move off Roshar very easily. Seeing as he has a spren bond, but not only that but he's bonded to THE Stormfather/Honor's Cognitive Shadow. But he could at least fuel spheres on Roshar for off world travel. It's unlikely he'll be willing to help Mraize out with the GB goals.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I feel like you are infusing your own perspective onto things.  If it's obvious to you, you seem to feel it must be obvious to the characters.  I disagree.  I'm starting from the assumption (which may be my own bias creeping in) that the Rosharans will assume by default that people are -not- from other worlds.

Yes, for each individual. In general, no. Theirs is a culture that has legends other other worlds for millenia. And some of them can look into Shadesmar and they are surrounded by supernatural entities.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

  This makes sense based on my memory of what has occurred in the books.  For example, Kaladin knows that Azure is strange, but he assume she's from a far away place with strange magic - not another planet.

Kaladin does not have a proper concept like that. He probably knows that there are planets other than Roshar in the Rosharan system, as he is fairly educated for a Vorin man, but he has no concept of the distance to the stars.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

  She puts everything she does in Rosharan terms - calls her weapon a shardblade, even though it isn't.  She even says she's from another land, not another world or another planet.

You are raising a point. What is the state of astronomy on Nalthis?

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I can't think of a single native Rosharan character who ever considered the idea that there could be other worlds that are inhabited by people, prior to being told in OB that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn.

Well, they considered their moons inhabitated for one thing. And they had a concept of the Tranquiline Halls and Damnation.

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I'll probably start a reread in October so maybe I'll pick up on a few things I missed in the past, but as of now I don't remember any instances native Rosharans thinking about other words.

I doubt that this distinction is meaningful to most Rosharans.

42 minutes ago, Karger said:

So modern Rosharan scholars do believe that the world is round although mythology and religion have not caught up yet.

In a world with spanreeds that is more obvious to more people than in the past of the Earth.

42 minutes ago, Karger said:

As such they probably know about planetary movements including the moon and given the background of cosmere aware individuals I think it likely that the hypothetical existence of other inhabited planets is known in some academic circles.  As far as ordinary people are concerned.  I do not think that the idea of far away lands with weird customs, technology, and even magic are particularly surprising.

Do they have a theory of what stars are?

 

[Rainier]

7 hours ago, Storyspren said:

Shallan has always seemed fake to me from book one.

7 hours ago, Storyspren said:

Remember Pattern being so confused she couldn’t make her illusions walk and talk anymore?

Brandon tells us, in print, that she's fake. In WoR, one of her flashback chapters starts: "Shallan became the perfect daughter." This is the same as saying Radiant became the perfect leader, or Veil became the perfect spy. It's actually the flashback chapter that immediately follows the chapter where Shallan is trying to get her illusions to walk and talk, and where Pattern tells her she's already done this before, and she needs to remember how. The timing is too perfect.

 

 

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Do they have a theory of what stars are?

Unknown.

[Chana]

I'm on board with Shallan being fake from the beginning and Formless being the scarred child that stores the majority of the trauma (after all 'Shallan' wasn't aware that she killed her mother until fairly recently) but I don't really like the idea of her being the spy/the killer. She is an unreliable narrator but she literally mentions in this chapter she doesn't experience memory loss and like she already has issues with repressed memories so I think adding to that her having a different type of amnesia is just a bit too much.

For her secret I'm starting to suspect she has unknowingly released an Unmade or interacted with it in some way, the hints towards a possible younger sibling seem to be a misdirection besides three times a charm is not really a rule with reveals. Once is surprising, second time also cause you don't expect the twist to repeat but then three times just becomes repetitive and predictable.

[Necessary Eagle]

[tinfoil hat time]

Mraize's spy is... Pattern.

[/tinfoil hat]

[Experience]

Just now, Necessary Eagle said:

[tinfoil hat time]

Mraize's spy is... Pattern.

[/tinfoil hat]

Maybe... Actually, no. I don't think that's very likely. Actually, maybe they bribed him with information? Other then that (and I have no idea how they could even bribe him), I think it's very unlikely. Fun idea though.

[Schneeente]

Couldn't the spy be a spren of a Ghostblood-radiant? 
Think about how the dustbringer (the one accompanying Taravangian) used her spren to spy on Dalinar? 

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Schneeente said:

Couldn't the spy be a spren of a Ghostblood-radiant? 

Mraize claims they don't yet have any radiants.

Edited October 1, 2020 by Karger

[Halyo_Alex]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Mraize claims they don't yet have any radiants.

And we're gonna just believe him?

[Karger]

19 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

And we're gonna just believe him?

Shallan claims he does not lie to her and while I am not saying that Mraize tells the truth all the time that seems like a fairly risky lie to make.  Also Shallan's value to them would not be so considerable if they had radiants of their own.

[Schneeente]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

Mraize claims they don't yet have any radiants.

I don't remember that they claimed that. But regardless, depending on the order you already have a spren for a long time that "obeys" you but you might not count as a radiant. So even if he said "we don't have any radiants", they could easily have someone who has already bonded a spren. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Schneeente said:

I don't remember that they claimed that.

Quote

“You are resourceful,” Mraize said. “You and yours have connections to the spren that no other Ghostblood has been able to manage so far.”

Seems pretty unambiguous.

[Zea mays]

Does that mean ‘no radiants’ or ‘no light weavers’, specifically.?

[+robardin]

11 hours ago, Karger said:

Shallan claims he does not lie to her and while I am not saying that Mraize tells the truth all the time that seems like a fairly risky lie to make.  Also Shallan's value to them would not be so considerable if they had radiants of their own.

I've been wrestling with this for some time now. Mraize had accepted Veil/Shallan as a Ghostblood at the end of WoR, only to find her half-and-half on the association.

He is still pressuring her to fully commit to them, i.e., to get the tattoo, while also treating her only halfway as a full member - she gets protection from the GBs and (some) information from him, in exchange for fulfilling missions that advance the GB goals inasmuch as they align with the Radiants, but only after this thing with Restares is he willing to trade full information for full membership - and even to let her walk away from the GBs with a promise of no personal vendetta (though he cannot guarantee other GBs "who do not like her" would do the same).

If that information turned out to be false and more importantly, falsifiable, that would be a big blow. And it also feels like Mraize would consider outright lying to be... Beneath him, especially to someone he's basically still recruiting, and even more so if she were a full member.

So, what does that mean for Mraize's letter to her about her family, in Oathbringer (Ch. 40)? The one that spoke of Helaran and the Skybreakers? Pattern had said after reading it with Shallan, "Secrets. There are lies in this letter."

For a while, I thought that meant that Mraize was lying about Helaran - intentionally - to Shallan, and that Pattern as a "liespren" could feel it through the text. But now I suspect something else: that Mraize is giving information to the best of his knowledge, but that that knowledge is wrong in a way that Pattern knows about. Pattern is not a "lie detector", as we've seen on numerous occasions (he took a while to learn about sarcasm!).

I think this ties into the related discussion topic about what truth Shallan is suppressing, which I will presume "Formless" or "OG Shallan" is surfacing with, and who has been there the whole time enabling Surgebinding of at least the Third Ideal.

Earlier than that letter, in Oathbringer Ch. 18, Shallan has a sudden moment of doubt that I think is the earliest suggestion of what she's buried as "OG Shallan", while she was busy investing more depth into the Veil persona:

Quote

"Veil is just a face." [from Pattern]

No, Veil was a woman who didn't giggle when she got drunk... hadn't been sheltered, practically locked away, until she went crazy and murdered her own family.

Shallan stopped in place, suddenly frantic. "My brothers. Pattern, I didn't kill them, right?"

"What?" he said.

"I talked to Balat over spanreed," Shallan said, hand to her forehead [this refers to when she was Jasnah's ward in Kharbranth]. "But... I had Lightweaving then... even if I didn't fully know it. I could have fabricated that. Every message from him. My own memories..."

"Shallan," Pattern said, sounding concerned. "No. They live. Your brothers live. Mraize said he rescued them. They are on their way here. This isn't the lie." His voice grew smaller. "Can't you tell?"

She adopted Veil again, her pain fading. "Yes. Of course I can tell." She started forward again.

"Shallan," Pattern said. "This is ... mmm ... there is something wrong with these lies you place upon yourself. I don't understand it."

"I just need to go deeper," she whispered. "I can't be Veil only on the surface."

While forming Veil, she mentally listed all the things that "Shallan" was or had to deal with, that Veil was not and would not have to deal with, and what froze her was the trail leading to "went crazy and murdered her own family".

That she killed her brothers is not the lie... It's that Shallan killed her mother, all right. but not in self-defense. That's the lie she constructed in her mind. Her mother didn't just suddenly call her "ONE OF THEM" and go at her with a knife. Something else transpired.

And that "going deeper" beyond the face that she is doing is not healthy, even (or especially) for a Lightweaver. It is blocking, if not weakening the bond (the "deep fake" that was the "Shallan Davar mask" persona actually knocked Pattern back almost to being unbonded, though OG Shallan could still break through occasionally and enable things like Soulcasting and Shardblade summoning in emergency situations).

And so, coming back to what are the "secrets... There are lies in this letter" that Pattern saw there, I'm guessing it was this: Your mother had intimate contact with a Skybreaker acolyte, and you know the result of that relationship. Mraize actually believes that. But Pattern knows better, because he was there when things went down.

 

Edited October 1, 2020 by robardin

[Shuffel]

It's almost embarrassingly obvious that Mraize is a merchant, I don't think anyone predicted this. He literally calls his mentor Babsk. The same thing Rysn calls her Mentor.

[Gilphon]

23 hours ago, agrabes said:

I feel like you are infusing your own perspective onto things.  If it's obvious to you, you seem to feel it must be obvious to the characters.

So... yes and no. What I was doing was attempting to speak from the perspective of a hypothetical version of myself who does not have cosmere knowledge. That is the context of my original objection to your use of the phrase 'minimal build-up'; I feel that there's been plenty of things that a Stormlight-only reader is likely to take as foreshadowing before this point. 

I have been having some trouble, however, discerning whether you're concerned about the hypothetical non-cosmere aware version of yourself, or if you're concerned about Shallan. You've been saying the latter, but I also feel like finding some throwaway passage in WoR where Shallan thinks about other planets would not actually change your opinion. My current read on you- and correct me if I'm wrong here- is that you want the characters to act like this is a major shift to their worldview. Finding evidence that is not a major shift, then, would be missing the point. You feel like it should be treated as piece of huge new information, and are annoyed that it's not. Whether or not it's a plot hole that's not being treated as huge and new is, from that perspective, irrelevant. Do I have that right?

23 hours ago, agrabes said:

I can't think of a single native Rosharan character who ever considered the idea that there could be other worlds that are inhabited by people, prior to being told in OB that humans came to Roshar from Ashyn.

So, this doesn't fit the exact words of what you're asking for here, since the scene takes place after the reveal, but there's Dalinar's interaction with the Stormfather following the Elia Steele revelation (paraphrased because I don't have my books handy right now):

Stormfather: "Did you really think that humans were native to here?"

Dalinar: "I thought... perhaps Shinovar."

Stormfather: "That is the land you were given. A land where the plants and animals you brought with you from Ashyn could survive."

When pressed on the matter, Dalinar admits that, at some point in the past he had considered the idea that humans might've come from some other world, but preferred to believe that they had just come from Shinovar. So this scene is Dalinar admitting that he had considered the idea of other inhabited worlds existing at some point before the revelation. And if Dalinar has, I think we can presume that Jasnah, at the very least, has had similar thoughts.

[+Oltux72]

36 minutes ago, Shuffel said:

It's almost embarrassingly obvious that Mraize is a merchant, I don't think anyone predicted this. He literally calls his mentor Babsk. The same thing Rysn calls her Mentor.

So was Warren Hastings. In fact so was Francis Drake for a part of his career, technically. I am afraid that the title of merchant implies a strict division of mercantile and other functions that does not exist on Roshar. Or anywhere in the Cosmere.

What is Waxillum Ladrian? A politician, an aristocrat, an industrialist, a lawman?

In Thaylenah the council of captains is part of the government. In their view you can buy a country and a company can own warships and armies.