RoW Chapter 13 Discussion

[psc92]

32 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Though this is probably an unpopular opinion, I really disliked the fact that the conversation between Shallan and Mraize casually dropped massive cosmere ideas and concepts and seems to indicate that RoW will introduce an integrated cosmere fully into a mainstream novel for the first time with very minimal buildup for such a major concept.  I've gone on about this in other threads so I won't repeat myself here.  Just disappointed in what seems to be the direction the story is taking based on the Shallan/Mraize scene.

Brandon has maintained that he doesn't want specific knowledge about the Cosmere to be necessary to understand any of his novels (Mistborn Era 4 notwithstanding), but that having Cosmere knowledge would enhance your experience. Mraize acknowledging that the Cosmere exists and hinting about things beyond Roshar doesn't cross this line. If there is any worldhopping going on in Stormlight I'm sure it will be the Roshar system only (Ashyn and Braize). Integrating the Cosmere fully into one of these novels is specifically what Brandon has said he will not do, regardless of what you think this conversation between Mraize and Shallan was indicating.

I would however be very worried if things like Allomancy, Feruchemy, or any other non Rosharan magic system started to play an important role in the story, or if (lol) Shallan does turn out to be a Kandra, because that would be crossing this line.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We already knew from OB that it does not.

Yes, but now we are told that with additional measures it does work. Why else mention the Everstorm?

1 hour ago, Michael Portz said:

I guess that was Gavilar visiting Braize bringing back the voidlight filled spheres:

How? Does Voidlight just pool on the surface of Braize?

39 minutes ago, robardin said:

If Mraize was indeed telling the truth by denying the GBs had any agents in Adolin's team of soliders, it would seem the only possibilities are either a really fast-acting Ishnah, or... A version of Shallan. Either after Ialai said "they won't let me" and before the soldiers arrived on the scene, or while doing the Lightweaving.

Or a man who looked like on of Adolin's men was not one of Adolin's men.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but now we are told that with additional measures it does work. Why else mention the Everstorm?

I think that in this case at least that is shorthand for "before all this stuff started happening."

[agrabes]

29 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

Minimal buildup? You say that like we haven't had two books worth of increasingly unsubtle hints of 'the Ghostbloods are Cosmere-aware', three books of epigraphs of Hoid talking with Shards, and one book of main characters from Warbreaker hanging out with important characters, making no particular effort to hid their identities. 

And nor are the ideas being dropped here particularly massive. Names are dropped without any context for what they mean beyond the implication that they're somewhere further than Ashyn and Braize, and there's talk about how it's hard to bring stormlight to those places. Not particular huge ideas, by themselves.

Really the whole Allomancy/ Fabrial connection should be making a lot more people go 'wait what?' than any of thing Ghostblood stuff, that's all been built up pretty naturally. 

And in case, there's certainly nothing here the requires having read Mistborn to understand what's going on, or anything.

Basically everything you've written is from the perspective of a fan/reader who is really into digging out cosmere secrets.  And from that perspective, you're right.  If you're a hardcore fan who's into this stuff, none of this is particularly new or massive.  If you're a fan who really wants to see the characters discover this stuff for themselves, it's disappointing when it just pops up without in world introduction.  You're writing about what is new information for us as readers and fans - I'm writing about what is new information for in world characters.

We've had hints the Ghostbloods are cosmere aware for two books.  However, no other characters (aside from special ones like Hoid or the Shards, etc) are aware of that.  Only readers.  So, when Mraize started talking about stuff like travelling to other worlds, this should have been a MASSIVE revelation to Shallan.  She should have reacted strongly to it, or recalled how she had strongly reacted when first learning of it.  Maybe she would play along outwardly to keep a strong face in front of Mraize, but internally being confused or questioning.  Instead, it was played out with her just being like "oh yeah, i knew about all this stuff in principle, but i want to know the secrets of how it actually works."

None of the main Rosharan characters know that anyone else is from another world.  Not Zahel/Vasher and not Azure/Vivenna.  Not even Wit/Hoid.  I don't think you could say that the Warbreaker characters are making no effort to hide themselves.  They are making effort to hide their true nature from the Rosharan characters.  Sanderson is not making a particular effort to hide their origins from us, the readers.  That is a key difference.

The ideas dropped are indeed massive, relative to the knowledge of the Knights Radiant.  The Knights Radiant only know that humans did not originate on Roshar as of the end of OB.  They would believe at that time that it took Shard level power to travel between worlds, since they know Odium helped them come to Roshar.

The Allomancy/Fabrial connection is completely unknown to the characters.  Navani's artifabrians have no knowledge of Allomancy.  It has not been built up at all that in world characters (again aside from special ones) would have this kind of knowledge.  It's sort of new for readers, but honestly a pretty obvious connection.  Sanderson has obviously created some "laws of magical physics" or whatever you want to call them for the Cosmere.  It makes complete sense that the different magic systems work based on similar concepts.  So it's cool to see it written in the epigraphs that metal works in a similar way in fabrials as it does in Allomancy/Hemalurgy, but this is a conclusion only a fan could draw, not an in world character.

You're just a different type of fan from me.  For you, it seems to be exciting to figure out mysteries and connections between the various books.  For me, that's interesting, but a distant second place to seeing the characters themselves gradually learning new information and solving mysteries.

[+Oltux72]

36 minutes ago, Zea mays said:

BTW, the bird could be a Kea.

Going by Brandon's videos Magellan is having his cameo. The bird is from First of the Sun. He will not match a terrestial species exactly.

The interesting question is what ability he grants Mraize.

[agrabes]

21 minutes ago, psc92 said:

Brandon has maintained that he doesn't want specific knowledge about the Cosmere to be necessary to understand any of his novels (Mistborn Era 4 notwithstanding), but that having Cosmere knowledge would enhance your experience. Mraize acknowledging that the Cosmere exists and hinting about things beyond Roshar doesn't cross this line. If there is any worldhopping going on in Stormlight I'm sure it will be the Roshar system only (Ashyn and Braize). Integrating the Cosmere fully into one of these novels is specifically what Brandon has said he will not do, regardless of what you think this conversation between Mraize and Shallan was indicating.

I would however be very worried if things like Allomancy, Feruchemy, or any other non Rosharan magic system started to play an important role in the story, or if (lol) Shallan does turn out to be a Kandra, because that would be crossing this line.

I agree with you about what Sanderson has said in the past.  That said, in this scene Mraize tells Shallan that people can travel to other worlds and strongly implies that he wants her to help him do it.  Mraize is telling Shallan that he wants her to participate in a cross-cosmere Investure smuggling operation.  This technically doesn't violate Sanderson's statement that you wouldn't need to have read Warbreaker or Mistborn to understand the plot of RoW, because the Ghostblood Investure smuggling is not related to the plots of Mistborn or other cosmere books.

I think the line is different for every fan.  For me, this conversation with Mraize crosses the line of my own preferences.  Doesn't mean I won't read the book (or that I may be entirely wrong about what was going on in this conversation), but I just don't like the direction things seem to be going.

[+robardin]

14 minutes ago, agrabes said:

You're just a different type of fan from me.  For you, it seems to be exciting to figure out mysteries and connections between the various books.  For me, that's interesting, but a distant second place to seeing the characters themselves gradually learning new information and solving mysteries.

OK, but in what way do these hints about the wider Cosmere detract from the SA story arc? It's not proving to be an essential component of what the characters will need to figure out, to face, or to use to fulfill their story arcs regarding advancing in Ideals, avoiding (or embracing) a Second Recreance, dealing with the singers, the Champion Throwdown With Odium, the Final Desolation, etc.

I personally think Brandon Sanderson is playing it pretty well in terms of SA standing on its own, while also tying it in to the wider Cosmere - first as "easter eggs" in the first five, then later - as he's said - more integrated as Roshar takes center stage in the wider Cosmere events he has planned.

For now, you could view the primary purpose of Chapter 13 to be to illustrate the depth of the Ghostbloods' knowledge and breadth of their goals. Similar to all the off-world references that Wit makes all the time that makes it clear he's "not truly of this world", and that the Shards that are/were the Rosharan gods were originally human ("Tanavast was a fine fellow...", "Sixteen, actually"), you can decide to take them at face value ("OK, so Hoid is Something More than Rosharan"), or look deeper ("...which means what, exactly?").

The Ghostbloods don't just know things about Gavilar, Braize, Odium, Surgebinding, the Unmade, etc., but know about off-world things and places.

Yes, if you've read all the other Cosmere works you can geek out over things like "Ooooh, they know about/have been to Scadrial (Mistborn) and Nalthis (Warbreaker)!", but it is not necessary to follow how those elements tie in with the Stormlight Archive.

And as for the "back five" eventually having Roshar take "Cosmere center stage", I'm sure it won't be done in a comic book fashion where in an issue The Fantastic Four of there might be an asterisk and a box in the corner, "See Incredible Hulk #58!". You'd just recognize certain characters or groups or actions for what they are immediately, instead of "shoulder surfing" with the SA characters' POVs to figure out what the deal is.

Edited September 29, 2020 by robardin

[psc92]

8 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think the line is different for every fan.  For me, this conversation with Mraize crosses the line of my own preferences. 

That's fair. I will concede that Brandon is sorta playing with fire here and he needs to be careful, though I'm sure that he has spent more time thinking about how to balance this than any of us have haha. 

I would prefer that the Cosmere novels stay mostly separate. Which is why I'm not a fan of the 'Kelsier is running the Ghostbloods' theory, the 'Autonomy will play an important role in Stormlight' theories, and any theory that involves too much heavy Cosmere stuff.

[agrabes]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

OK, but in what way do these hints about the wider Cosmere detract from the SA story arc? It's not proving to be an essential component of what the characters will need to figure out, to face, or to use to fulfill their story arcs regarding advancing in Ideals, avoiding (or embracing) a Second Recreance, dealing with the singers, the Champion Throwdown With Odium, the Final Desolation, etc.

I personally think Brandon Sanderson is playing it pretty well in terms of SA standing on its own, while also tying it in to the wider Cosmere - first as "easter eggs" in the first five, then later - as he's said - more integrated as Roshar takes center stage in the wider Cosmere events he has planned.

For now, you could view the primary purpose of Chapter 13 to be to illustrate the depth of the Ghostbloods' knowledge. Similar to all the off-world references that Wit makes all the time that makes it clear he's "not truly of this world", and that the Shards that are/were the Rosharan gods were originally human ("Tanavast was a fine fellow...", "Sixteen, actually"), you can decide to take them at face value ("OK, so Hoid is Something More than Rosharan"), or look deeper ("...which means what, exactly?").

The Ghostbloods don't just know things about Gavilar, Braize, Odium, Surgebinding, the Unmade, etc., but know about off-world things and places.

Yes, if you've read all the other Cosmere works you can geek out over things like "Ooooh, they know about/have been to Scadrial (Mistborn) and Nalthis (Warbreaker)!", but it is not necessary to follow how those elements tie in with the Stormlight Archive.

And as for the "back five" eventually having Roshar take "Cosmere center stage", I'm sure it won't be done in a comic book fashion where in an issue The Fantastic Four of there might be an asterisk and a box in the corner, "See Incredible Hulk #58!". You'd just recognize certain characters or groups or actions for what they are immediately, instead of "shoulder surfing" with the SA characters' POVs to figure out what the deal is.

I don't think that the hints that have appeared so far in released, published material detract from the SA story arc.  However, I believe that Ch. 13 is moving the story in a direction that would detract.  The Shallan/Mraize scene seems to be setting up Shallan having significant involvement in RoW or SA5 with cross-cosmere trading.  If it turns out this was just a hint from Mraize and he will clam up and shut Shallan out from here, then I'm fine with it.  It doesn't seem like that's the way it's going.  But, maybe that's a result of reading one chapter at a time and overanalyzing.

Your general description of what you'd like to see is generally what I would like to see.  Hints throughout the cosmere novels, until at some point it's revealed as part of the main plot of one of the series.  I could see this happening in Mistborn Era 3.  Then open the next series with the wider cosmere no longer being a mystery.

[+robardin]

5 hours ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, I agree that Formless has probably been around all along, but emphatically disagree with the idea that Formless could be a Ghostblood agent.

Formless is, most likely, a heavily traumatized child who creates her alters because she feels she's useless and unlovable on her own. Shallan, Veil and Radiant are all there do stuff whereas Formless feels she can do nothing. We saw Shallan talking about this explicitly when Pattern was trying to push her to remember her mom's death.

And, like, Formless working against the other three would very much be the 'Hollywood DID' thing that Brandon has specifically said he's trying to avoid. 

I would not equate "Formless is working with the Ghostbloods" with "Shallan was already a Ghostblood at age 11" (though that would be an interesting explanation for Shallan's mother decrying, "She's one of THEM!" - meaning the GBs). For one, it was pretty obvious Mraize and the others did not know Shallan Davar was a Lightweaver when they first met her.

However, I think it's plausible that because at least two of the three personalities (Shallan and Radiant) have pulled back from cooperating with the GBs, and have also been suppressing the reawakening of those earlier memories that "Formless" represents, that that aspect of Shallan might yet embrace working with the GBs for reasons we don't yet understand - which may have to do with What Really Happened in Shallan's childhood.

My guess is that Formless knows or recognizes something about the GBs, even if they hadn't known about her, and is simultaneously shielding The Three from it while also pursuing that line.

And my prediction is that eventually, Formless as "OG Shallan" will emerge to "integrate" (if that is the right word) with "Shallan the mask" - perhaps leaving Veil and Radiant in place as useful constructs, but in any case, cementing a complete identity of "Shallan Davar" (with all her memories of past actions acknowledged) as the core one.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, agrabes said:

I don't think that the hints that have appeared so far in released, published material detract from the SA story arc.  However, I believe that Ch. 13 is moving the story in a direction that would detract.  The Shallan/Mraize scene seems to be setting up Shallan having significant involvement in RoW or SA5 with cross-cosmere trading.  If it turns out this was just a hint from Mraize and he will clam up and shut Shallan out from here, then I'm fine with it.  It doesn't seem like that's the way it's going.  But, maybe that's a result of reading one chapter at a time and overanalyzing.

Your general description of what you'd like to see is generally what I would like to see.  Hints throughout the cosmere novels, until at some point it's revealed as part of the main plot of one of the series.  I could see this happening in Mistborn Era 3.  Then open the next series with the wider cosmere no longer being a mystery.

Yeah, maybe it's a side effect of over-analzying what is, after all, only part of one chapter among what will be well over a hundred of them in the final book.

But I doubt we'll see Shallan sent off of the Shadesmar Market to trade her Stormlight (only to come back with magic beans!). Shallan herself didn't seem very interested in pursuing that line of inquiry, "please to explain exactly how would you use Stormlight in another place to literally change worlds?"; when Mraize promises he'll tell her "everything" when she comes back after succeeding in doing whatever it is she'll know what to do with Restares in Lasting Integrity, she's more interested in more personal secrets she believes they know the answers to.

Quote

They’d been hooked as soundly as any fish. For in Mraize’s mind were answers. About the nature of the world and its politics, but more beyond. About Shallan. The Davar house steward had belonged to the Ghostbloods. It was possible Shallan’s father had as well. Mraize had never been willing to speak of that, but she had to think they’d been grooming her—and her family—for over a decade.

He knew the truth about Shallan’s past. There were holes in her childhood memories. If they did what he asked, Mraize would fill them.

And maybe then, at long last, Veil could force Shallan to become complete.

That's which of Mraize's big hints really tantalize her. Sure, knowing more about the Radiants would be useful, and about other worlds interesting, but her and her family are the foremost questions in her mind.

BTW refresh my memory-  by now, she knows Kaladin is the one who killed Heleran, right? Or rather, that Heleran was the Full Shardbearer going after Amaram that Kaladin killed as a spearman, and whose Shards Amaram then stole (and are now in a box going to the Horneater Peaks)? Which Mraize had earlier told her was something he'd been commissioned to do by the Skybreakers... Which totally felt like a lie?

[+Bliev]

30 minutes ago, agrabes said:

We've had hints the Ghostbloods are cosmere aware for two books.  However, no other characters (aside from special ones like Hoid or the Shards, etc) are aware of that.  Only readers.  So, when Mraize started talking about stuff like travelling to other worlds, this should have been a MASSIVE revelation to Shallan.  She should have reacted strongly to it, or recalled how she had strongly reacted when first learning of it.  Maybe she would play along outwardly to keep a strong face in front of Mraize, but internally being confused or questioning.  Instead, it was played out with her just being like "oh yeah, i knew about all this stuff in principle, but i want to know the secrets of how it actually works."

I see your point here, but I don't think that she reacted in a way that was unexpected. Last book, they traveled to another "world"/realm. They met people who looked weird (lighthouse guy). They saw spren cities. They met a stranger with a strange blade (Azure). And surely they have enough astronomy to know there are moons and planets out there. My guess is that (a) she thinks he wants to travel to another planet, which, wouldn't be strange for her as a scholar to hear, and (b) she is not at all even fathoming the breadth of the worlds we know he is discussing. Even the ancient greeks had theories regarding planets and the cosmos--and Galileo's telescopes expanded knowledge even more. So I don't think it's outside the realm of expectation that she wouldn't be surprised that some people wanted to go to different planets, and magic might make that possible. I guess I didn't think that was unrealistic as a reaction. 

Character-wise, Shallan is hardly ever shocked, either--her ravenous curiosity is a pretty strong character trait that Mraize definitely knows how to exploit. 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

I don't think that the hints that have appeared so far in released, published material detract from the SA story arc.  However, I believe that Ch. 13 is moving the story in a direction that would detract.  The Shallan/Mraize scene seems to be setting up Shallan having significant involvement in RoW or SA5 with cross-cosmere trading.  If it turns out this was just a hint from Mraize and he will clam up and shut Shallan out from here, then I'm fine with it.  It doesn't seem like that's the way it's going.  But, maybe that's a result of reading one chapter at a time and overanalyzing.

I think you are looking at this through the eyes of a 21 century reader rather then through Shallan's.  We have explored the entirety of our planet relatively thoroughly and have been fascinated by ETs for decades.  To Shallan who has barely herd of Azir and Shinovar as of WoKs the idea of other worlds or other peoples is not really that interesting.  She does not even know for certain her world is round.  She thinks so but no one has circumnavigated it yet.  For all she knows there could be a whole other continent on Roshar that has never been visited.  As such I think that he knowledge of what Mraize is up to is going to stay within OB parameters.  Mraize wants a monopoly of stormlight trade to far away lands that are only of academic interest to her.  Hardcore fans will know what is up.  More casual readers will likely take hints that the specifics are unimportant or decide to become hard corefans.

58 minutes ago, robardin said:

BTW refresh my memory-  by now, she knows Kaladin is the one who killed Heleran, right? Or rather, that Heleran was the Full Shardbearer going after Amaram that Kaladin killed as a spearman, and whose Shards Amaram then stole (and are now in a box going to the Horneater Peaks)?

Yes Shallan has known since WoR.

58 minutes ago, robardin said:

Which Mraize had earlier told her was something he'd been commissioned to do by the Skybreakers... Which totally felt like a lie?

Mraize said he was a Skybreaker acolyte and most likely attempted to kill Amaram as a way of proving himself.  I personally don't think that Mraize is unprofessional enough to tell more then one or two lies and then only when strictly necessary.  I don't see that being the case here.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Karger

[Gilphon]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Basically everything you've written is from the perspective of a fan/reader who is really into digging out cosmere secrets.  And from that perspective, you're right.  If you're a hardcore fan who's into this stuff, none of this is particularly new or massive.  If you're a fan who really wants to see the characters discover this stuff for themselves, it's disappointing when it just pops up without in world introduction.  You're writing about what is new information for us as readers and fans - I'm writing about what is new information for in world characters.

We've had hints the Ghostbloods are cosmere aware for two books.  However, no other characters (aside from special ones like Hoid or the Shards, etc) are aware of that.  Only readers.  So, when Mraize started talking about stuff like travelling to other worlds, this should have been a MASSIVE revelation to Shallan.  She should have reacted strongly to it, or recalled how she had strongly reacted when first learning of it.  Maybe she would play along outwardly to keep a strong face in front of Mraize, but internally being confused or questioning.  Instead, it was played out with her just being like "oh yeah, i knew about all this stuff in principle, but i want to know the secrets of how it actually works."

None of the main Rosharan characters know that anyone else is from another world.  Not Zahel/Vasher and not Azure/Vivenna.  Not even Wit/Hoid.  I don't think you could say that the Warbreaker characters are making no effort to hide themselves.  They are making effort to hide their true nature from the Rosharan characters.  Sanderson is not making a particular effort to hide their origins from us, the readers.  That is a key difference.

The ideas dropped are indeed massive, relative to the knowledge of the Knights Radiant.  The Knights Radiant only know that humans did not originate on Roshar as of the end of OB.  They would believe at that time that it took Shard level power to travel between worlds, since they know Odium helped them come to Roshar.

The Allomancy/Fabrial connection is completely unknown to the characters.  Navani's artifabrians have no knowledge of Allomancy.  It has not been built up at all that in world characters (again aside from special ones) would have this kind of knowledge.  It's sort of new for readers, but honestly a pretty obvious connection.  Sanderson has obviously created some "laws of magical physics" or whatever you want to call them for the Cosmere.  It makes complete sense that the different magic systems work based on similar concepts.  So it's cool to see it written in the epigraphs that metal works in a similar way in fabrials as it does in Allomancy/Hemalurgy, but this is a conclusion only a fan could draw, not an in world character.

You're just a different type of fan from me.  For you, it seems to be exciting to figure out mysteries and connections between the various books.  For me, that's interesting, but a distant second place to seeing the characters themselves gradually learning new information and solving mysteries.

You've misunderstood my point completely. I was absolutely writing from the perspective of what was new information to the characters. And I would, in fact, argue that Azure made her identity pretty obvious- obvious enough that I, who at the time had not read Warbreaker and had fairly limited Cosmere knowledge- put the pieces together without much effort. My mind was going 'okay, she's obviously from another world; she's all but outright said that and specifically denied every other reasonable explanation for what her deal could be, but which one? She doesn't match anything I'm aware of, and it seems like that weird sword Szeth has is from the same place.'

And Mraize is pretty much doing that exact same thing here. He stops just short of saying that there are other worlds out there. He gets close enough to exclude every other reasonable possibility, but doesn't actually say it: He says that they're places you can reach from Shadesmar, and heavily implies that they're further away than Ashyn and Braize, but doesn't say anything more than that. It's still possible for a casual reader to think that Scadrial and Nalthis are odd and remote spren communities out there somewhere, although the implications say different. That's why I'm saying there isn't actually anything truly game-changing from the character's perspective here. 

And, indeed, I don't think the idea of other worlds being out there somewhere is that shocking to the characters. Like when the revelation happened at the end of OB, there was shock, yeah, but it wasn't at the idea of other worlds existing, or travel between them being possible, it was at the idea that humans had stolen Roshar from the Singers. Like Dalinar goes as far as to admit he had seriously considered the idea, but had just been hoping that humans start in Shinovar, and he's not exactly on the front lines of scientific thoughts. 

Everything kind of points 'familiar with the concept in principle, but ignorant of specifics' being the general Rosharan attitude towards that sort of thing. There's a WoB somewhere that I can't be bothered to find right now about how they'd shrug and say 'yeah, probably' if asked if they thought Roshar's moons were inhabited. And the same sort of thing is true elsewhere, by the way- there's a brief moment in Bands of Mourning where we see the characters jump to the conclusion that the Southerns are from another world. It kinda seems there have been enough unsubtle worldhoppers in the Cosmere's history that the idea of other worlds existing and behind potentially visitable has seeped into the general cultural consciousness. 

Edited September 29, 2020 by Gilphon

[Schneeente]

By now I have thought about this chapter a lot. And I have come to the following conclusion:

 

What was "revealed" (implied) by Mraize is a bigger deal for us than for Shallan. I readily admit that I was very confused about her casual behavior and felt her reaction wasn't ...  genuine/logical. 

But some people here have raised a very compelling argument why her behavior is indeed consistent: She has learned roughly one year ago that a whole "new dimension" exists. This dimension is largely completely unexplored. Now Mraize tells her that you can "go places" in that dimension. That should not surprise her at all, should it? 

 

That's why I think it was a bigger deal for "the audience" who can better judge the significance of this than for Shallan herself. At least that's how I explain her "underwhelming" reaction after being told what those names mean. 

[Pcheinze]

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

None of the main Rosharan characters know that anyone else is from another world.  Not Zahel/Vasher and not Azure/Vivenna.  Not even Wit/Hoid.  I don't think you could say that the Warbreaker characters are making no effort to hide themselves.  They are making effort to hide their true nature from the Rosharan characters.  Sanderson is not making a particular effort to hide their origins from us, the readers.  That is a key difference.

I think its safe to assume that they know that ash/taln is from ashen and that since they have found out a lot of info from ash she isn't as surprised as she would have been at the end of oathbringer. The whole humans arent from roshar thing kinda means everyone except the singers are from another world. 

[+Bliev]

8 minutes ago, Pcheinze said:

I think its safe to assume that they know that ash/taln is from ashen and that since they have found out a lot of info from ash she isn't as surprised as she would have been at the end of oathbringer. The whole humans arent from roshar thing kinda means everyone except the singers are from another world. 

Yes, I agree. The whole reveal in OB was that the humans were otherworldly invaders who brought the evil god with them, so I think the knowledge of other worlds like Ashyn at least being inhabited is probably well known among the elites at least, though regular folks may still be in the dark.

[king of nowhere]

Quote

Are you a Ghostblood or not? You enjoy the benefits of our organization, but refuse to get the tattoo.”

wait a moment, didn't shallan get a ghostblood tattoo? in book 2, when first contacting them and passing their assignment, she was required to get one. and i seem to remember she got one somewhere near a shoulder.

[+Bliev]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

wait a moment, didn't shallan get a ghostblood tattoo? in book 2, when first contacting them and passing their assignment, she was required to get one. and i seem to remember she got one somewhere near a shoulder.

She was told to, but I don’t remember her getting it? Didn’t she carve it into a table in OB instead?

[Catlito]

Mraize - Shallan 

Not sure if that theory has already been discussed. What if Mraize lightweaver's spy is actually Shallan herself, or more another of her persona. Maybe the formeless one ? That would mean she actually killed Ialai .  To push further, the ghostbloods may know about that persona since Shallan childhood and that would explain why Mraize seems to know so much about her past.  

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Catlito said:

Mraize - Shallan 

Not sure if that theory has already been discussed. What if Mraize lightweaver's spy is actually Shallan herself, or more another of her persona. Maybe the formeless one ? That would mean she actually killed Ialai .  To push further, the ghostbloods may know about that persona since Shallan childhood and that would explain why Mraize seems to know so much about her past.  

Welcome to the shard.  This theory has been discussed at length over the last few weeks.  I personally take issue with it as it feeds into negative stereotypes around DID and Brandon has made a commitment to try and portray Shallan more accurately.  I also think it has a verity of narrative problems not to mention logistical and plausibility ones.  My opponents seem to argue the rule of cool allows it.

[Experience]

1 hour ago, Catlito said:

Mraize - Shallan 

Not sure if that theory has already been discussed. What if Mraize lightweaver's spy is actually Shallan herself, or more another of her persona. Maybe the formeless one ? That would mean she actually killed Ialai .  To push further, the ghostbloods may know about that persona since Shallan childhood and that would explain why Mraize seems to know so much about her past.  

I personally think that Formless is not the spy, and maybe Brandon is trying to make us think it (I don't know), but I find it very unlikely that Shallan herself would be the spy and she would have absolutely no idea that she killed Ialai. Also, the ghostbloods didn't know about Veil at first, so I'm guessing they didn't know about different personas before hand. Maybe they did. Other then that I don't really know who the spy is, though I do have my suspicions. 

[Black_Shoshan]

This annotation addresses the Cosmere reveals in this chapter:

 

[Storyspren]

In Oathbringer, Shallan literally tells her newly budding squires that Veil and Shallan are both fake. So here is my rant about this new Formless personality being totally telegraphed and not at all surprising. 
 

Shallan has always seemed fake to me from book one. Her mandatory quips are a little too mandatory. Her goody two shoesness a little too goody two shoes, especially in light of her behavior. And her dumb idea to save her family by stealing another fabrial? So shortsighted considering her plan to do that invoked so much opportunity. Leaving her family was unthinkable for some reason. “I killed my mom and dad” seems like a great reason NOT to be around your own family. It’s fake. It’s a fake story.
 

Read or listen closely to Shallan and she questions her own identity or who she is as a person from book 1. 
 

I don’t know if Formless is OG Shallan but that would be a good name for it. It’s the one that doesn’t fit into some prescribed form, some invented character sketch. 
 

Remember Pattern being so confused she couldn’t make her illusions walk and talk anymore? How much funnier are all those interactions if she basically IS doing what she wants to be able to do, holding a Shallan illusion.

i can’t wait to see what supposedly horrible but actually fine thing Shallan did that broke her down originally. This should be good. 

[+Child of Hodor]

15 hours ago, agrabes said:

Though this is probably an unpopular opinion, I really disliked the fact that the conversation between Shallan and Mraize casually dropped massive cosmere ideas and concepts and seems to indicate that RoW will introduce an integrated cosmere fully into a mainstream novel for the first time with very minimal buildup for such a major concept.  I've gone on about this in other threads so I won't repeat myself here.  Just disappointed in what seems to be the direction the story is taking based on the Shallan/Mraize scene.

I see what you are saying. If it's any consolation Brandon's latest annotation describes it more as a "careful mixing".