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RoW Chapter 13 Discussion


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17 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

So the previous chapter's cliff hanger hasn't been answered, or has it? It seems to me that the development causing Leshwi agony has been shown: An Unmade is switching sides

It looks like Sja-Anat's cover is less tight than she hopes it to be.

Certainly possible.  It does beg the question "how did Odium find out?"  Sja-anat should know enough to hide herself.  Perhaps the GBs are playing her too?  They get their spren and then give her to Odium.

Side Note:  We know have confirmation that Radiants can  go to Ashyn and Braize.  That could be super interesting even if it does not happen until the back half.

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Why can't Mraize fall into one of these holes?

Her brothers should still recognize him. 

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Also, could you refresh my memory, which assassination attempt are you referring to?

WoR early chapters.  The GBs were clearly trying to kill Jasnah and all witnesses.  They also certainly knew that Shallan was there.  Shallan just got lucky.  Given the amount of effort that went in to prepping her you would think they would be a little more circumspect in putting her in harms way not to mention taking actions that could alienate her.

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Mraize had a special purpose for Shallan and her family, likely in relation to gaining access to a Surgebinder who could get him easier access to Shadesmar (Oathgates), or something else entirely that has yet to be revealed (I don't take his "power" explanation entirely at face value).

With you so far.

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Neither he nor his agents set out to "create" Formless, she's just a consequence of whatever problems or issues that befell the Davar family as a result of his initial meddling/plans. Perhaps he considered whatever plans he had for the Davars a failure, and cut his losses. That that "consequence" finds him later, many years down the road is perhaps a surprise to him, but he recognizes its usefulness. 

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

So in WoR, he is approached by a woman he does not recognize or know, Veil. This makes sense as she didn't exist before then. He decides to make use of her, but then is pleasantly surprised to find out that she is in fact Shallan Davar, a loose thread, a lost tool that is now suddenly back in his arsenal. And not only that, someone he knows he has leverage over through his history with her and her family. He also knows that the two faces she presented to him at that point are not the entirety of her whole self. Recall his response to Shallan's insistence that "Veil is the mask"..."I think not". 

Certainly more plausible.

17 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Formless is likely to be what "Shallan Davar" doesn't want to believe she is capable of: a ruthless killer. She alludes to it in this chapter. Do you not think that that will be played out later down the road?

I am actually on board so far.  It ties into Tyn's killing.  A truth Shallan does not want to acknowledge.  She is willing to kill when her life is in danger.  An abuse victim lashing at out abuser.  However I do not think it plausible that Shallan proactively kills or acts.  The one scene that may have been formless acting (Tyn's death) we see them as frantic and scared.  Mraize may be relying on that as how to deal with her next assignment but I still don't think it matches the MO of Ialai's killer.  Too much planning and not enough threat.

Edited by Karger
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Wow a lot to unpack in this chapter. Mraize is the master of the dangling carrot trick. Like someone else said I think his Aviar is an Owl by the hunting and the way Shallan describes as "The thing was so strange, so alien. It stood upright, like no other beast Shallan had studied." Second guess would be a hawk or falcon. I also think it is granting his "Lifesense" like powers. Sounds like Shallan will be more Cosmere aware soon. Who in the heck is Restares? Shallan will know what to do when she finds him? More info on what Gavilar was doing I found interesting as well as his travels to Braize and the in-book confirmation of Voidlight. I feel like there is more to the motivation of the Ghost bloods but was glad to get this much as it was a lot more than we knew thus far. So are there "cells" of Ghostbloods on other planets throughout the Cosmere? I would think with their goals and clear world hopping abilities they would have started to build a network throughout the Cosmere. 

 

On a side note Brandon has always made it clear he does not want people to have to have Cosmere knowledge or have read all the books to enjoy the different series but I feel like this is a little jump here. It has gone from cameo appearances and minor story lines to what looks like bigger plots. I know the Ghost Bloods are only a minor plot in the grand scheme of things but now we know their goal and a major character is getting more involved with a lot of Cosmere wide implications. Not complaining in any way I love the Cosmere goodies I just think this is quickly getting past the point of being able to fully enjoy as a stand alone series and that is a little surprising to me. 

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4 minutes ago, StormingTexan said:

Like someone else said I think his Aviar is an Owl by the hunting and the way Shallan describes as "The thing was so strange, so alien. It stood upright, like no other beast Shallan had studied." Second guess would be a hawk or falcon. I also think it is granting his "Lifesense" like powers

I mean, an Aviar is not necessarily any real life bird, but it's clearly most similar to a parrot, what with it's bright green feathers and ability to mimic speech. I also feel like it's more likely that Mraize just has a bunch of Breath, giving him regular Lifesense.

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Did I understand it correctly? The Ghostbloods want to "smuggle" / export Stormlight from Roshar to other planets? I assume they are able to "transmute" Stormlight into whatever is needed to "do magic" on the respective planet? Otherwise the premise doesn't make sense.  And apparently Stormlight is very easy to get their hands on, much easier than for example "Breaths" from Warbreaker...? Just want to affirm that I understood Mraize correctly. 

Edited by Schneeente
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4 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

Did I understand it correctly? The Ghostbloods want to "smuggle" / export Stormlight from Roshar to other planets? I assume they are able to "transmute" Stormlight into whatever is needed to "do magic" on the respective planet? Otherwise the premise doesn't make sense.  And apparently Stormlight is very easy to get their hands on, much easier than for example "Breaths" from Warbreaker...? Just want to affirm that I understood Mraize correctly. 

Pretty much. We've already seen some stuff along these lines, with Vasher/Zahel being able to sustain himself via stormlight and therefore not have to take other people's Beaths to live. So a way to get stormlight off-world would be incredibly valuable to the Returned.

It's less obvious how he expects Scadrial to make use of Stormlight. I feel like it would take additional hacking to get an Allomancer to use stormlight, and I don't think a Feruchemist could at all. 

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18 minutes ago, Karger said:

Her brothers should still recognize him.

Yeah, the only thing I can think is that perhaps Mraize used a proxy in most (or all) of his dealings with the family. My impression is that he has built a vast network of subordinates who do most of the actual "work" of the GB, and he gets "personally" involved in active work rarely, and in circumstances he cannot trust to others. I doubt that the Davar family was his only active scheme to achieve Surgebinders, so it seems likely to me he would have used subordinate proxies for that kind of work. We'll have to see though.

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

WoR early chapters.  The GBs were clearly trying to kill Jasnah and all witnesses.  They also certainly knew that Shallan was there.  Shallan just got lucky.  Given the amount of effort that went in to prepping her you would think they would be a little more circumspect in putting her in harms way not to mention taking actions that could alienate her.

Ah, got it. Ok, so this is assuming that Mraize himself personally knew Shallan would be there, or if it was just his proxies who knew. Again, he has skilled members of GB to do the work he wants done, and my additional impression is that he largely leaves it up to them how to go about it. In this case, it was Tyn who did the actual orchestration of the Jasnah "hit". Who is Shallan Davar to her? So unless Mraize indicated that she was someone not to be meddled with, Tyn wouldn't concern herself with Shallan's presence. And if Mraize did know that Shallan was with Jasnah, can we assume he would care about her at that point. Perhaps to him, she was Shallan Davar, a potentially broken lighteyed girl, who was part of one of his failed ventures. He didn't take special interest in her until after she had infiltrated his organization as Veil.

Clearly, I'm really playing up the "failed venture, lost/discarded/broken tool (Shallan), rediscovered, newly useful" angle here for how Mraize views Shallan Davar. I could be completely off, but it seems plausible.

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1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

It's less obvious how he expects Scadrial to make use of Stormlight. I feel like it would take additional hacking to get an Allomancer to use stormlight, and I don't think a Feruchemist could at all. 

Well, even if the Stormlight to "insert planetary currency" only works on a few planets, it would still be a big deal? As you said, if "they" can use stormlight instead of breaths, isn't that alone already huge? 

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4 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Ok, so this is assuming that Mraize himself personally knew Shallan would be there, or if it was just his proxies who knew

If it is the second I think my respect for Mraize just dropped a few points.  He had an informant near there who worked on Shallan for months and her presence was public knowledge.  Your other theory has more merit but it still implies that Mraize missed a few beets.

Edited by Karger
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1 hour ago, Infinitysliver said:

Could it be...Renarin? We know he was on the floating barge they have. And Shallan mentions that the spanreed was from a day before she returned and I think i might be wrong on the timings but does the barge arrive before Shallan and Adolin get back?

It couldn't be Renarin; Spanreeds don't work on the barge, and it was (almost) definitely back in the air by the time Navani landed on the shattered plains. 

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2 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

Well, even if the Stormlight to "insert planetary currency" only works on a few planets, it would still be a big deal? As you said, if "they" can use stormlight instead of breaths, isn't that alone already huge? 

Oh, absolutely. It's also just scratching the surface of what might be possible. Stormlight can be used to manifest objects in Shadesmar to make travel easier. And stormlight can be taken off-world, then spren probably can as well, which leads to exporting Fabrials and Shardblades. And who knows what else. It could be a very big deal.

Although Mraize overplays his hand by implying it's more important than the conflict with Odium. If Odium gets free, none of this stuff will seem nearly as significant anymore.

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3 minutes ago, Schneeente said:

There's always someone who does it first. Until that moment everyone thought it's impossible, one smart cookie finds a way, voilà? 

Sure.  However he must know he can't keep it a secret forever.  Eventually silverlight or Hoid will crack it even if no one else does.  This will imperil his monopoly so a long term economic campaign is probably not what he is looking for unless he has a very good reason to suspect his method cannot be replicated.

Edited by Karger
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3 hours ago, Karger said:

Nice move Resteres.  Looks like Shallan might get cosmere aware.  Why do the GB want investiture off world?  Mraize wants to bond Sja-anat.  Why on earth?  Mraize says he can get investiture off roshar.  Even Hoid doesn't know that trick. 

He wanted to Bond a spren from her, not Sja-Anat.

Quote

“Sja-anat contacted me while I was away. She agreed to your terms, and is sending one of her spren to the tower, where it will investigate your members for a possible bond.”

“Those weren’t the terms,” he said. “She was to promise me a spren to bond.”

 

Hoid would discover said trick soon with his own spren soon enough.

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Sure.  However he must know he can't keep it a secret forever.  Eventually silverlight or Hoid will crack it even if no one else does.  This will imperil his monopoly so a long term economic campaign is probably not what he is looking for unless he has a very good reason to suspect his method cannot be replicated.

Maybe the Ghostblood’s method is more efficient than other methods. That would allow them to transport and sell the most Stormlight.  

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Sure.  However he must know he can't keep it a secret forever.  Eventually silverlight or Hoid will crack it even if no one else does.  This will imperil his monopoly so a long term economic campaign is probably not what he is looking for unless he has a very good reason to suspect his method cannot be replicated.

Think East India Company. The access to Roshar is through a very small number of points. If they want to watch and defend them, they can. The goal is grow enough before anybody else cracks the secret, so that their position is unassailable.

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8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

He wanted to Bond a spren from her, not Sja-Anat.

Thank you for the correction.

8 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Maybe the Ghostblood’s method is more efficient than other methods. That would allow them to transport and sell the most Stormlight.  

I apologizes if I am being unclear.  No method yet exists.  If GB and co think they have one and it works that gives them several options.  However I see no way to keep this secret indefinitely.  Eventually someone will figure out a work around(either a different one or just copy their HW) and then your monopoly is gone along with a lot of your wealth and capital. 

6 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Think East India Company. The access to Roshar is through a very small number of points. If they want to watch and defend them, they can. The goal is grow enough before anybody else cracks the secret, so that their position is unassailable.

Possible.  However this would require the cooperation or subjugation of the radiants as well as, possibly, the spren.  No matter how rich you are you are going to have trouble matching a radiant army in combat.

Implications.  One:  The GB are confident that their method is not replaceable(at least short term).  Perhaps the only efficient method involves Sja-anat and there is only one of her.

Two:  The GB are just looking to make a buck.

Three:  The GB think that their goals will allow them a good enough position that they can keep it when their monopoly blows up.

Four: The GB's are idiots who think they can hold a monopoly indefinitely.

Edited by Karger
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Oh, and this stood out to me as well:

Quote

 

"Radiants, spren—anyone Connected to Roshar is bound by these laws, and cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize. You are imprisoned here, Radiant.”

“A prison as large as three planets,” Radiant said. “Forgive me if I don’t feel confined.”

She seems awfully unsurprised about being bound to Roshar extending to two more planets - one of them being Damnation and by implication, ... The Tranquiline Halls?!

My assumption is that she doesn't at that point recognize either of those two names and they may as well just be any two other planets she's never been to (and doesn't expect to visit) that she can go to with a spren bond.

But only a little bit later, in the same conversation with Mraize, he drops this:

Quote

[Gavilar] had Voidlight before the Everstorm—he carried it from Braize, the place you call Damnation

So at some point do you think something will click in her mind and say hey... Wait... Braize = Damnation = I can go there from Roshar... Then Ashyn = ...?????

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1 minute ago, Gilphon said:

If I recall correctly, Stormlight takes place a little bit before Mistborn Era 2, so Hoid's presence in those books implies that he does end up learning how to take a spren off-world. 

Or that he's broken off the Nahel Bond by then, or perhaps that the way to get off of Roshar with a bond is to suspend it somehow, like leaving your shoes in a cubbyhole at Chuck E. Cheese (and getting it back later when he returns to the Rosharan System).

Edited by robardin
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3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Possible.  However this would require the cooperation or subjugation of the radiants as well as, possibly, the spren.  No matter how rich you are you are going to have trouble matching a radiant army in combat.

What would Dalinar sign for a steady supply of mercenaries, cannons and shells from Scadrial? His oath would presumably bind subsequent Bondsmiths.

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Just now, Oltux72 said:

What would Dalinar sign for a steady supply of mercenaries, cannons and shells from Scadrial? His oath would presumably bind subsequent Bondsmiths.

Maybe but not all spren and radiants.  Windrunners and Edgedancers would not uphold such a treaty if it became ethically dubious.  I also think that Dalinar is smart enough not to make that kind of oath indefinite.  He must be aware that realities in war change as do the value of some types of forces.  Even if he is not Jasnah certainly is.

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