RoW Chapter 13 Discussion

[IcaroRibeiro]

Another wholesome chapter 

 

This has been by far the hottest part 1 in the series so far, just too much stuff happening

[+Oltux72]

31 minutes ago, Rainier said:

As for Restares, I immediately thought he was Vasher.

Why would Vasher want Odium to return, plunging his retirement world into a war?

31 minutes ago, Rainier said:

Of course, not everyone is the same person, and I'm sorry for combining two different people, but we do know Vasher's being hunted (by Vivenna). We know so very little about what he's doing or why, but he straight out told Kaladin he's on Roshar for the same reason the Ghostbloods are: cheap and easy Investiture. We know that Warbreaker was a pseduo-prequel to Stormlight, because it tells Vasher's backstory. That's an awful lot of connection to one guy who hasn't done diddly thus far. And think some more: what could Restares offer to Lasting Integrity that would prompt them to grant his asylum request? Why, the knowledge of one of the Five Scholars.

Who was last seen in the company of Honorspren and has interesting knowledge to offer: Azure

31 minutes ago, Rainier said:

The Ghostbloods, on the other hand, are out here trying to be the Cosmere's version of Standard Oil, and Mraize is giving off some There Will Be Blood vibes. God forbid you get in the way of the Investiture pipeline being built through the Horneater Peaks, that stuff needs to make it to market!

Rather the East India Company.

[Eternal Khol]

2 hours ago, Innovation said:

Returned would certainly love it. But beyond that, I can’t see any uses other than Investiture conversion, which haven’t been discovered yet. 

I think Fabrial usage mostly. 
and i mean cross magics fabrials. like when the term becomes cosmere wide for any magical device.

 this might be farfetched but...

The commom populace of Roshar may have forgotten fabrial tech. 
but those secrets stay with people in shadesmar. Fabrial tech that is just now being rediscovered on Roshar, has probably been being actively used in Shadesmar for hundreds if not thousands of years still.

The Ire were using a advanced warning fabrial 300 years prior to the events of The Stormlight Archive when the common populace is just rediscovering those fabrials. 

think of where the Ire must be now, if we met them during the events of the Stormlight Archive

 

this info brandon is giving us isnt meant to give us direct answers right now, but to make the transition into era 3 easier, when a lot of these “hard” problems are now like solving a algebra equation.

finally bringing the larger cosmer plot to the foreground. Get us, as well as those in-world to start asking these questions, because they’ll probably already have the answers by era 3

Edited September 29, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Brandon could have had this idea and plot point in his head and outline BEFORE he committed to doing DID "right", whatever that means to you. I doubt he would abandon it entirely in his efforts to present a DID depiction more realistically. The DID does not exist in this narrative for it's own sake. It is there to serve the character, and it is there to serve the plot. 

Sounds like if Brandon's fiction deviates one iota from the current prevailing consensus of the mental health community, you are going to have a problem with it, because it is going to "hurt" people. Well, what can one say to that? What defense is there? None.

Agree to disagree. I refuse to limit my imagination of where this story could go simply because something doesn't line up 100% with a textbook definition of a real world mental health diagnosis.

I take this tack too - he's admitted to reading up on DID to add depth to how Shallan's personas express themselves, which is laudable because it means he's using real life experiences to add realistic depth to a fictional character (in a way he did not, for example, with the character of Adien in Elantris, who comes across as "off" to people who know actual autistic people of that nature)... But it shouldn't parameterize, define, or drive the character's story arc.

"Expecting people with DID to eventually integrate into a single personality is not healthy" can be true without therefore implying, much less requiring, "it would be harmful to make Shallan Davar a poster child for DID and then have her integrate into a single personality, so that should not be the outcome".

Anyway let's please remove this kind of discussion to another thread, if indeed there is anything left to be said, at this point everybody has said what there is to say and we can just sit back and see how Brandon ends up writing it, then complain / admire as appropriate.

[DeployParachute]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Anyway let's please remove this kind of discussion to another thread, if indeed there is anything left to be said, at this point everybody has said what there is to say and we can just sit back and see how Brandon ends up writing it, then complain / admire as appropriate.

100% agree and appreciate this. Provided, of course, we can all also agree to not lob the old "that's not how X disorder works in real life, so your plot predictions have no merit" at people as well.

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

The biggest flaw in this isn't another form of investure, but just plain old electricity. Scadrial has entered its industrial phase, and is just a few years away from many devices which could render fabrials obsolete. Why buy a magical contraption which runs on an exotic energy source that must be brought from another planet when you can get an electrical appliance that does the same thing? Once a power station is built on your planet, it should supply energy much more cheaply than an interplanetary trade route. If I were looking to turn a massive profit, I would be smuggling appliances out of Scadrial. That said, perhaps Mraize doesn't know the potential electricity has. It would be hilarious to see him succeed only to be crushed in a decade by Scadrian entrepreneurs..

You cannot build an electrical painrial. Or an alerter. Or an attractor. Let alone a Soulcaster. Even the fabrial fridge circumvents the laws of thermodynamics. Electricity is a toy compared to fabrials.

 

[Rainier]

I'm with @DeployParachute on this one, but that's because I think Shallan is the first alter created (Shallan became the perfect daughter), which means that everything else from the original person had to go somewhere.

You'll notice in this chapter, too, how Shallan brings back her memories, which aren't from that early in her life, they're from after she already killed her mother. These are from the alter, not from the whole person.

Quote

She opened her eyes and glanced at the little creationspren gathering around her, imitating mundane things. Her mother’s teakettle. The fireplace poker. Objects from her home in Jah Keved, not objects here—somehow they responded to her imaginings. One in particular made her feel cold. A necklace chain slinking across the ground.

In truth, those days at home had been terrible times. Times of tears, and screams, and a life unraveling. It was also the last time she could remember her entire family together.

Except… no, that wasn’t the entire family. This memory had happened after… after Shallan had killed her mother.

Confront it! she thought at herself, angry. Don’t ignore it! Pattern moved across the floor of the room here in Urithiru, spinning among the dancing creationspren.

She’d been only eleven years old. Seven years ago now—and if that timeline was correct, she must have begun seeing Pattern as a young child. Long before Jasnah had first encountered her spren. Shallan didn’t remember her first experiences with Pattern. Other than the distinct image of summoning her Shardblade to protect herself as a child, she had excised all such memories.

No, they’re here, Veil thought. Deep within, Shallan.

She couldn’t see those memories; didn’t want to see them. As she shied away from them, something dark shifted inside her, growing stronger. Formless. Shallan didn’t want to be the person who had done those things. That… that person could not… not be loved…

She gripped her pencil in tight fingers, the drawing half-finished in her lap. She’d buckled down and forced herself to read studies on other people with fragmented personas. She’d found only a handful of mentions in medical texts, though the accounts implied people like her were treated as freaks even by the ardents. Oddities to be locked away in the darkness for their own good, studied by academics who found the cases “novel in their bizarre nature” and “giving insight to the addled mind of the psychotic.” It was clear that going to such experts with her problems was not an option.

Memory loss was apparently common to these cases, but the rest of what Shallan experienced seemed distinctly different. Importantly, she wasn’t experiencing continued memory loss. So maybe she was fine. She’d stabilized.

Everything was getting better. Surely it was.

So, since we, the reader know that nothing is getting better, and that she's not fine, why should we believe her when she says she's not experiencing continued memory loss? I think this is being built up for a twist, and no-memory-having Formless seems a better bet than most.

[Pathfinder]

Just have enough time to drop in and say gotta love the confirmation from Mraize that Amaram was in it for the power and glory, not because of religion. 

 

"He recruited others, promising them a return to the old glories and powers. Some, like Amaram, listened because of these promises - but for the same reason were easily lured by the enemy. Others were manipulated through their religious ideals."

 

Pretty clear, others (not Amaram), were manipulated through their religious ideals. Others were promised the return to old glories and powers, promises that some (Amaram) listened to because of. 

[Infinity Sliver]

50 minutes ago, robardin said:

Oh yeah, good pick up. If Sja-anat can leave spanreed notes for Shallan somehow, then sure, why not be able to do so for Navani? Though who was the agent to plant that paired ruby under Navani's desk?

Now hear me out,Could it be...Renarin? We know he was on the floating barge they have. And Shallan mentions that the spanreed was from a day before she returned and I think i might be wrong on the timings but does the barge arrive before Shallan and Adolin get back?

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, Infinitysliver said:

Now hear me out,Could it be...Renarin? We know he was on the floating barge they have. And Shallan mentions that the spanreed was from a day before she returned and I think i might be wrong on the timings but does the barge arrive before Shallan and Adolin get back?

I like it. We do know that Renarin has relatively recently learned to read/write just like Dalinar - maybe Navani doesn't recognize his handwriting because of that!

[Rainier]

22 minutes ago, Lightspine said:

The easiest explanation would be that stormlight can be applied in a manner that Breaths can't be.

The easiest explanation is the one given by Vasher, to Kaladin. It's easier to get as Stormlight than it ever was as Breaths. You don't need to convince another sentient soul to give up their own Investiture, you just have to be around when a Highstorm blows through. I don't think there's anything special about what you can use Stormlight for, I think it's by far the most abundant and easily accesible form of Investiture in the Cosmere.

I made the comparison of the Ghostbloods to Standard Oil, so I'm going to keep the oil analogies.

Stormlight is the light sweet crude in Saudi Arabia, where you can practically fill your car up from a hole in the ground the oil is of such high quality. Breaths are shale oil, accessible through fracking at much higher cost, and if you don't have other options, still worth the effort, but not comparable in terms of accessibility.

Or take gasoline vs liquid natural gas. One can be transported in a cup or bottle, the other needs high pressures and will evaporate away if not properly contained, although now I've switched my metaphors and suddenly Stormlight is the one that evaporates through leaks and Breaths are the ones you can pour from one vessel to another without much loss.

[Lightspine]

16 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

You cannot build an electrical painrial. Or an alerter. Or an attractor. Let alone a Soulcaster. Even the fabrial fridge circumvents the laws of thermodynamics. Electricity is a toy compared to fabrials.

 

Good point! For some reason I was only thinking of spanreeds and heating/cooling, since those are more commonly seen. I guess I was both underthinking and overthinking at the same time :P. 

Edit: New reply just as I posted this one lol. Adding as an edit so I don't double-post

Just now, Rainier said:

The easiest explanation is the one given by Vasher, to Kaladin. It's easier to get as Stormlight than it ever was as Breaths. You don't need to convince another sentient soul to give up their own Investiture, you just have to be around when a Highstorm blows through. I don't think there's anything special about what you can use Stormlight for, I think it's by far the most abundant and easily accesible form of Investiture in the Cosmere.

I made the comparison of the Ghostbloods to Standard Oil, so I'm going to keep the oil analogies.

Stormlight is the light sweet crude in Saudi Arabia, where you can practically fill your car up from a hole in the ground the oil is of such high quality. Breaths are shale oil, accessible through fracking at much higher cost, and if you don't have other options, still worth the effort, but not comparable in terms of accessibility.

Or take gasoline vs liquid natural gas. One can be transported in a cup or bottle, the other needs high pressures and will evaporate away if not properly contained, although now I've switched my metaphors and suddenly Stormlight is the one that evaporates through leaks and Breaths are the ones you can pour from one vessel to another without much loss.

That sounds like a good analogy! Stormlight is certainly easier to acquire. What this makes me wonder the most, however, is how the amount of investure in a breath compares to stormlight.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Lightspine

[+Bliev]

5 minutes ago, Rainier said:

I'm with @DeployParachute on this one, but that's because I think Shallan is the first alter created (Shallan became the perfect daughter), which means that everything else from the original person had to go somewhere.

You'll notice in this chapter, too, how Shallan brings back her memories, which aren't from that early in her life, they're from after she already killed her mother. These are from the alter, not from the whole person.

So, since we, the reader know that nothing is getting better, and that she's not fine, why should we believe her when she says she's not experiencing continued memory loss? I think this is being built up for a twist, and no-memory-having Formless seems a better bet than most.

So do we think that Radiant and Veil are wrong too? That they are also amnesiac? Because Veil seems to remember. And Radiant seems to know that they are currently stable, but in peril from other unformed identities. I don't disagree with your here--she's definitely not a fully credible source of information. But I think that's what's different about this. Brandon has gone out of his way to show us her risks but also her stability as of right now. I don't see any textual evidence that there is an unknown identity that has been operating all this time without us knowing. I do think the *risk* for another identity is palpable. And I don't think she's "fine". But I don't see any of the textual evidence so far leading me to the idea that Formless is the assassin or another player in this game *yet*. It may well become  an issue, for sure. And I think that's what we'll see emerging as she lies more and more to Adolin and Veil/Radiant/Pattern try to force her to tell the truth. 

I think the twist is being set up, for sure, but I think it's less "Formless has been here the whole time" and more likely something like "Shallan has been part of Mraize's plan the whole time and deep down, a part of her knows it's true." I think there will be a moment where she has to choose to embrace a fundamental lie (giving life to Formless) or truth (embracing her past) which I hope is in where this books goes.

In another thread I speculated as to whether what she thinks is so bad is actually not as bad as she thinks it is--but is a more mundane childhood trauma than one that involves matricide or patricide. I'm now not so sure about that, and wondering if it's more magical in nature. If she was cultivated by the Ghostbloods (or the Sons of Honor, even!!) from the beginning due to their interest with budding Radiants...finding a chaotic, abusive household that already had spren attracted there (Skybreakers) and trying to broker a bond (maybe Pattern's cryptics were a part of this...why did they choose her??). But there's little text evidence for that as of yet I think.

[DeployParachute]

2 minutes ago, Bliev said:

Because Veil seems to remember. And Radiant seems to know that they are currently stable, but in peril from other unformed identities.

I could be wrong, or missed some very important wording in text some where in one of the preview chapters, but my impression was that Veil only knows that the memories exist, but not what is actually contained within them. She wants Shallan to remember because she knows it is what needs to be done. However I'm certainly open to being wrong on this, especially if there is verbiage somewhere that suggests Veil knows the full history, although Mraize's recent comments seem to indicate that none of the primary 3 do:

Quote

He knew the truth about Shallan’s past. There were holes in her childhood memories. If they did what he asked, Mraize would fill them.

And maybe then, at long last, Veil could force Shallan to become complete.

I think the wording here "Shallan's past" refers to the Cosmere entity known as Shallan Davar, and not just the alter. Veil, Radiant, and Shallan currently seem to all know what each other knows, about what is going on in the world, and shared memories. Why would Veil not share with Shallan if she knew? The "Shallan" before Veil and Radiant were created didn't, so how would Veil? Again, I could be wrong. Perhaps Veil really is holding out on the other two. But for someone who potentially already knows everything, she seems awfully eager herself to get those answers out of Mraize.

[Karger]

27 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

You are assuming that Mraize was the one who had to work to get her on his side, or to even train her, rather than her seeking him out in the first place. 

When?  She only met Mraize in WoR.  Her brothers also don't recognize Mraize so it can't have been at home. 

31 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Perhaps he's had a lot more time with her than we thought.

This is a somewhat more valid point.  However if true it leads to some odd questions.  For example Mraize clearly did not know about Shallan's photographic memory.  Why train formless at all?  Even if he is engineering her family for a particular purpose he seems pretty unable to keep track of his own people and he ordered her assassination.  If he only engaged with her during the time skip then why did we get some clues to formless during WoR? 

35 minutes ago, DeployParachute said:

Sounds like if Brandon's fiction deviates one iota from the current prevailing consensus of the mental health community, you are going to have a problem with it, because it is going to "hurt" people. Well, what can one say to that? What defense is there? None.

Shallan has already moved several iotas.  Because people are different and magic is involved not to mention the fictional and fantastical setting Brandon does get much more leeway then he would if he were writing something that was true to life.  However feeding into a very negative, very real, and very harmful stereotype is different.  Imagine your reaction to Brandon making a gay child molester a character in one of his books.

[Subvisual Haze]

I would assume the Ghostbloods' ultimate goal is immortality.  Specifically immortality without location requirements, because that's just far too limiting.

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

So do we think that Radiant and Veil are wrong too? That they are also amnesiac? Because Veil seems to remember. And Radiant seems to know that they are currently stable, but in peril from other unformed identities. ...

I'm coming around to the "Formless has been around the whole time and is the Original Shallan"

And that at a deep level all versions of Shallan remember what has been suppressed... Which means any examples of "Formless took over and did something and The Three didn't notice/remember it" is even more interesting

Explained as, "Formless" is actually the master who is intentionally leaving Shallan and her Two Adjutant Identities in the dark so they don't have to deal with what OG Shallan accrues to her ledger"

[+Bliev]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

I'm coming around to the "Formless has been around the whole time and is the Original Shallan"

And that at a deep level all versions of Shallan remember what has been suppressed... Which means any examples of "Formless took over and did something and The Three didn't notice/remember it" is even more interesting

Explained as, "Formless" is actually the master who is intentionally leaving Shallan and her Two Adjutant Identities in the dark so they don't have to deal with what OG Shallan accrues to her ledger"

I could get behind the idea that Formless is a catch all for her pre-11 yo life/memories and all that entails, which would, I suppose, make her "OG". I don't know if I'd call it the "master" identity as if it's pulling strings, but definitely could get behind the idea of it as a useful repository for further dissociation. i.e., "Oh, don't like that at all, let's just shove that down deep with all the other awful things that have happened." What I have a bigger issue with is the idea that Formless is a fourth identity that is out there in the world acting when the other three are unaware of it. I don't see any evidence at all that this is the case. It would be a huge twist, yes, but also one without the satisfying foreshadowing that I am used to.

Willing to be wrong, tho.

[Michael Portz]

1 hour ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Recall Ruin. Imagine what some other Shards in situations like that might do with a steady supply of unconnected investiture...

I think that is EXACTLY the whole point! The GB want to tip the balance int the shardic struggle in favor of ... their Boss-Shard?

[+robardin]

1 minute ago, Bliev said:

I could get behind the idea that Formless is a catch all for her pre-11 yo life/memories and all that entails, which would, I suppose, make her "OG". I don't know if I'd call it the "master" identity as if it's pulling strings, but definitely could get behind the idea of it as a useful repository for further dissociation. i.e., "Oh, don't like that at all, let's just shove that down deep with all the other awful things that have happened." What I have a bigger issue with is the idea that Formless is a fourth identity that is out there in the world acting when the other three are unaware of it. I don't see any evidence at all that this is the case. It would be a huge twist, yes, but also one without the satisfying foreshadowing that I am used to.

Willing to be wrong, tho.

Right, I don't mean "master" in that sense, but "master" in the sense that OG Shallan, or Deep Shallan, is aware of what The Three are doing and thinking, but not vice versa.

And evidently, and maybe only seen at this point when that identity is close to the surface nearing its integration - whether melding or simply getting "a seat at the table", able to "take control" for some actions while still leaving the Three in the dark, which after all is the reason OG Shallan created "Shallan" in the first place (who then created the other two).

So, "master" over them in the sense of a one-way flow of information, plus the ability to take control without leaving a memory trail in them.

[Gilphon]

I mean, I agree that Formless has probably been around all along, but emphatically disagree with the idea that Formless could be a Ghostblood agent.

Formless is, most likely, a heavily traumatized child who creates her alters because she feels she's useless and unlovable on her own. Shallan, Veil and Radiant are all there do stuff whereas Formless feels she can do nothing. We saw Shallan talking about this explicitly when Pattern was trying to push her to remember her mom's death.

And, like, Formless working against the other three would very much be the 'Hollywood DID' thing that Brandon has specifically said he's trying to avoid. 

[Subvisual Haze]

The changing hair colors, the dimming of perceived colors in the world when she becomes Veil, the retrograde amnesia occuring at a particular moment in her past...

Shallan is a Returned!

[+Bliev]

Just now, Subvisual Haze said:

The changing hair colors, the dimming of perceived colors in the world when she becomes Veil, the retrograde amnesia occuring at a particular moment in her past...

Shallan is a Returned!

I literally guffawed. Bravo. Ten points to you. 

[+Oltux72]

So the previous chapter's cliff hanger hasn't been answered, or has it? It seems to me that the development causing Leshwi agony has been shown: An Unmade is switching sides

It looks like Sja-Anat's cover is less tight than she hopes it to be.

[DeployParachute]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

She only met Mraize in WoR.  Her brothers also don't recognize Mraize so it can't have been at home.

Quote

He knew the truth about Shallan’s past. There were holes in her childhood memories. If they did what he asked, Mraize would fill them.

Why can't Mraize fall into one of these holes?

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

For example Mraize clearly did not know about Shallan's photographic memory.  Why train formless at all?  Even if he is engineering her family for a particular purpose he seems pretty unable to keep track of his own people and he ordered her assassination.  If he only engaged with her during the time skip then why did we get some clues to formless during WoR? 

I'm not necessarily saying that Mraize "trained" Formless, I'm just saying that he is benefitting from her existence NOW, after she approached him, probably because Formless remembers him, or whatever proxy he may have been using. Also, could you refresh my memory, which assassination attempt are you referring to?

My further refined thoughts, after your valid comments and complications are:

Mraize had a special purpose for Shallan and her family, likely in relation to gaining access to a Surgebinder who could get him easier access to Shadesmar (Oathgates), or something else entirely that has yet to be revealed (I don't take his "power" explanation entirely at face value). Neither he nor his agents set out to "create" Formless, she's just a consequence of whatever problems or issues that befell the Davar family as a result of his initial meddling/plans. Perhaps he considered whatever plans he had for the Davars a failure, and cut his losses. That that "consequence" finds him later, many years down the road is perhaps a surprise to him, but he recognizes its usefulness. 

So in WoR, he is approached by a woman he does not recognize or know, Veil. This makes sense as she didn't exist before then. He decides to make use of her, but then is pleasantly surprised to find out that she is in fact Shallan Davar, a loose thread, a lost tool that is now suddenly back in his arsenal. And not only that, someone he knows he has leverage over through his history with her and her family. He also knows that the two faces she presented to him at that point are not the entirety of her whole self. Recall his response to Shallan's insistence that "Veil is the mask"..."I think not". 

Formless is likely to be what "Shallan Davar" doesn't want to believe she is capable of: a ruthless killer. She alludes to it in this chapter. Do you not think that that will be played out later down the road?