RoW Chapter 13 Discussion

[+robardin]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

Nice move Resteres.  Looks like Shallan might get cosmere aware.  Why do the GB want investiture off world?  Mraize wants to bond Sja-anat.  Why on earth?  Mraize says he can get investiture off roshar.  Even Hoid doesn't know that trick. 

No, the way I read it is that Mraize wants to bond a corrupted ("enlightened") Radiant spren, the way that Renarin has bonded Glys. But she's concerned about how Renarin has been treated because his spren was "touched" (i.e., Jasnah was about to kill him, and who knows what else since).

Interesting, because Mraize also said that having a Nahel bond would effectively tie him to the Rosharan system, whereas he seems to have been able to move about more freely otherwise - he seems to have the "life sense" associated with having enough Breath for at least the First Heightening.

Given that Glys's "Illumination" grants visions of the future, I would think it likely that whatever kind of "enlightened" radiant spren this is, one of its Surges will be similarly Odium-ized - perhaps it's another Illumination granting spren that Mraize would be particularly interested in.

And now Sja-anat has sent one of her "children" to (potentially) choose someone to bond with among the GBs, who may be Mraize, another one, or nobody.

I wonder how taking Stormlight to Nalthis or Scadrial would be valuable. I guess it's basically an arbitrage play, because Stormlight is cheap on Roshar (it literally rains from the sky on a regular basis), and the GBs already have a way to convert it to something locally useful?

And Restares hiding out in Lasting Integrity... Is he the reason, or one of them, that the honorspren are refusing further bonds? And what, if not killing him, would Shallan "know to do" upon finding him there (and he is a human, so it's not like she can imprison him in a gemstone)?

44 minutes ago, Karger said:

Assuming Mraize is not lying(he usually is not) then Ishna, or Gaz seem the only possibilities.

Or... another hidden identity of Shallan's, haha. The "Formless" that Shallan thinks is suppressed but is actually Doing Stuff without "Shallan" knowing.

That feels inelegant to me somehow, but it is a possibility, as Mraize seems a bit too amused that Shallan doesn't know.

What about the Oathgates granting direct access to Shadesmar, that Dalinar's (Navani's) scholars have been slowly unlocking the secrets of? I thought they were locked from doing so "by the word of the parent" who is "dead now" in "the parent's last days" in Oathbringer? (Was that parent not Honor, could it be the Sibling who is now "sleeping" as a spren cannot really be "killed"?)

So Gavilar had obtained Voidlight on Braize. When it's said that the Fused and the Heralds "go back" to Braize after being killed on Roshar, are they there physically the way they are on Roshar? What else is there on Braize but Fused engaging in a Herald Hunt, and why would the Fused have given a human like Gavilar a gem with Voidlight? Since all the Fused now hang out in the Everstorm instead of going back to Braize upon getting killed, is there nothing there at all? Hmm.

Edited September 29, 2020 by robardin

[Kuram]

55 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Why do the Ghostbloods even want Stormlight anyway? It’s only valuable as a light source and for Radiants. Maybe Stormlight is easy to convert to other forms of Investiture?

Fabrials.  Unkeyed metalminds.

 

27 minutes ago, KidWayne said:

I can't say why, but this jumped off the page at me. How does access to Shadesmar enable Dalinar to properly fight Odium?

Strong tactical advantage, you can control instantaneous movement across the continent.  He didn't say controlling shadesmar, he said controlling the oathgates.  But having the ability to access shadesmar would be beneficial too, as we see the fused in shadesmar attempting to control space in OB.

 

Quick generic thought: I don't think mraize has lifesense from breath, I think he has it from his aviar.  That or it's giving him seeker powers, which I assume are kinda the same.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Kuram

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Do you know a group called Set? He had plans for centuries. This did not stop them from trying to rush the schedule with other methods. The GB just won that with the Oathgates.

The set seem to have an actual political agenda.  We have seen no indication of what the GBs are up to.

[Mage of Lirigon]

1 minute ago, SteelShaper said:

Squeee!!! So many Cosmere morsels!

Theory about why plentiful Rosharan investiture would be useful in Scadrial system: We know in Scadrial the CR is basically an ocean of mist, that you can't move through/across without having investiture to push against it.  Invest an oar, or a ship, with stormlight, and you would gain a reliable trade route to Scadrial and its growing fabrial tech as well. Meanwhile, on Nalthis, of course, it would be useful to the Returned, even if it would be difficult to use it for Awakening.  

I'm very interested in the Connection problem.  If it is so difficult to bring investiture or highly invested people off-world, how did Vasher manage it? Or Azure/Vivenna? Or the Elantrians?  Except, I've always wondered how much power the Elantrians would retain in the CR.  Certainly, Riino the lighthouse keeper seems not to be silver anymore.  In any case, Either Mraize doesn't understand it as well as he thinks, or he's not yet telling the whole truth about worldhopping.  

Nalthians are naturally Invested, so that may make some difference. Same thing could go for the Elantrians based on the nature of the Shaod.

 

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Mraize is officially the coolest character in Stormlight at the moment. I suspect that he will wind up being pretty nasty to the protagonists sooner or later, and probably die violently (hopefully not in this book), but he is still one of my favorite characters. I also like that he never seems to be lying.

Also, I´m increasingly certain that Sebarial is a Ghostblood, and possibly Thaidakar himself. He is a merchant, which goes well with their stated objective of trading in investiture. He is putting up an act of caring about politics a lot less than he is doing. He joined Dalinars excursion to Narak for no good reason in WoR (Roion and Aladar joined since it was right, but I dont think Sebarial did). And now Mraize is masquerading as a Sebarial guard. The first GB-meeting Shallan attended was in Sebarials camp as well. 

I don't want Sebarial to be a Ghostblood, since he's the most prominent example of a non-standard Alethi male we see in the books.

[ScadrianTank]

I think that the theoretical value of Stormlight is in its properties as fuel. Roshar has an energy source more that is easier to obtain than electricity and which might be more efficient. We haven't seen any way to use it this way, other than by those with access to an Invested art, that doesn't mean that there are none.

The problem is that the Ghostbloods are unlikely to view it this way, even knowing that they were to Scadrial and saw electricity there. What may be more likely is that Stormlight can be used in that method of slow aging that Silverlight and Seventeenth shard use.

Also, Mraize's words about Investiture being hard to transport from its source has me thinking if the same holds for God metals.

 

 

[+Child of Hodor]

Quote

"She focused on the sketch—which she’d drawn poorly, since her eyes had been closed. It took her a second to notice that in the fireplace back home, she’d drawn burning souls. One might have mistaken them for flamespren, but for the fact that they looked so similar to her and her three brothers…"

Did she soulcast someone into fire as a child? Obviously not her 4 brothers, one Kaladin stabbed through the eye, the other three are still alive. But somebody. 

Sounds like Restares is the source of the Honorspren not bonding anymore people. He ran to and sought asylum in Lasting Integrity. Sounds like something Kalak would do, run and hide. Also, he is the Willshaper Herald and this is the Willshaper (Venli) book. 

 

Quote

 she and Adolin had a tenth of Urithiru to tend.

I take this to mean the other 9 highprinces (still alive) rule the other 9/10ths. Alethkar rules all of Urithiru? The other members of the coalition don't get any taxes or whatever? I know Alethkar doesnt have a homeland anymore, but seems like it would ruffle some others. I assume they all agreed to it. 

Quote

“Immortality, in part. He thought he could become like the Heralds.

I still think this is not quite right. I think Gavilar who, like Dalinar, was bonding the Stormfather aspired to be a Shard. He may have not understood it all, but Herald seems small. Plus he met Heralds and presumably knows how terrible their existence became. 

 

[Friendshipspren]

31 minutes ago, Innovation said:

I didn’t think of that. You are correct, Fabrials could be a large enterprise. However, Spren don’t seem to be able to be transported off world. 

Read my post again bro. I edited it to include more 

[+honorblades]

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

I wonder how taking Stormlight to Nalthis or Scadrial would be valuable. I guess it's basically an arbitrage play, because Stormlight is cheap on Roshar (it literally rains from the sky on a regular basis), and the GBs already have a way to convert it to something locally useful?

 

I still think the real treasure here is getting Radiants off-world. The stormlight will be useful, and certainly very profitable, but the knowledge of how to get a full Radiant with powers intact to somewhere like Scadrial - or beyond - is invaluable 

[Toaster Retribution]

One thing that points toward the Ghostbloods having a more sinister purpose than taking the monopoly on the energy market in the Cosmere is their name. If your goal is to develop a popular brand on multiple planets and make a rust-ton of money, you dont name yourselves "The Ghostbloods".

[+Oltux72]

4 minutes ago, SteelShaper said:

I'm very interested in the Connection problem.  If it is so difficult to bring investiture or highly invested people off-world, how did Vasher manage it? Or Azure/Vivenna?

Highly Connected people. Not necessarily highly Invested people.

At a first guess Breaths are Connected to the bearer, but Stormlight is connected to Roshar or the Stormfather. An Elantrian presumably has a lot of innate Investiture, but it is his. The only other "free" Investiture we have seen is Shardpools, Skaze, Seon and Threnodian Shades. Only the latter have we seen off world. In fact, none of the Ire had Seons.

 

[+robardin]

2 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Sounds like Restares is the source of the Honorspren not bonding anymore people. He ran to and sought asylum in Lasting Integrity. Sounds like something Kalak would do, run and hide. Also, he is the Willshaper Herald and this is the Willshaper (Venli) book.

Hmmm, I kind of doubt that Restares=Kalak would be seeking to bring back the Voidbringers and trigger another Desolation, eh? Which he apparently was, as the head of the Sons of Honor.

[Honorless]

1) a chapter that gives hope to all who were tired of Shallan's insensitive quips

2) She did... something unforgivable? Did she really let loose an Unmade in the Davar household as has been theorised? Perhaps for the Ghostbloods if they were indeed that closely affiliated even back then

3) Mraize is here! Stupid war profiteer!

4) new minor spren! (I'm keeping track of these for fun)

Also Creationspren! They do seem like they'd be the secondary spren of the Lightweavers in this

5) The Sons of Honor, the original group knew a lot a things, but what did they know that a Worldhopping war-profiteering group would call dangerous knowledge? It seemed in the prologue that they learned to Worldhop items within the Rosharan system... Hmm,  also wonder if they're aware of the Veristitalians or just Jasnah

6) Ialai assassination by Ghostblood operatives, instead of suicide confirmed

7) Wonder what Mraize's Aviar bestows. Mraize has very heightened senses but I don't think that's Aviar granted, maybe Breaths?

8) Mraize also treats Shallan, Veil & Radiant as separate individuals. I wonder if this kind of perception could actually affect Shallan's Cognitive...

9) A... A-a... A father figure?!?! In Mraize?! That was unexpected! 

10) Shallan having a not your apprentice tantrum: the sequel

11) He wants the Stormlight? It is an easily accessible form of Investiture, distributed freely and in large amounts by a natural phenomenon. Which is something that another Worldhopper is finding invaluable *cough*Zahel*cough*

12) Aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhh! Stormlight in Nalthis? On Scadrial? Investiture that isn't Breath, not Preservation's, er Harmony's power dripping through metals via the Metallic Arts. Free, portable, easy-to-access Investiture... damnation

Hmm... Why aren't the Ire also trying to butt in? 

13) How much do the Horneaters know? Do they not allow passage easily after all, like Sigzil said?

14) Mraize is just casually dropping Cosmere knowledge!

Quote

“This power is something we call Investiture,” Mraize said. “Investiture manifests in many forms, tied to many places and many different gods. It is bound to a specific land—making it very difficult to transport. It resists. Try to carry this too far, and you’d find it increasingly difficult to move, as it became increasingly heavy.

“The same limitation restrains people who are themselves heavily Invested. Radiants, spren—anyone Connected to Roshar is bound by these laws, and cannot travel farther than Ashyn or Braize. You are imprisoned here, Radiant.

The last part is interesting though, so people practicing an Invested Art would find it harder to leave, huh

15) "I already have" *shivers* Hey Brando! Weren't we supposed to wait till era 4 for things like this to happen!

16) Sja-Anat is willing to lend Corrupted spren to the Ghostbloods!!! Too much! This is too much! 

17) one of the Lightweavers! If it's Gaz then screw forgiveness! I'll personally find a way to enter the pages and strangle him!.... But I like Red and Vathah and Ishnah, dammit! Please don't be one of them! 

18) Iyatil and Thaidakar, namedrop some more high-rankers for us, ones we don't know yet! Huh, so the Ghostbloods could in the future perhaps be allied with

19) 

Quote

Immortality, in part. He thought he could become like the Heralds. In his quest, he discovered a secret. He had Voidlight before the Everstorm—he carried it from Braize, the place you call Damnation. He was testing the movement of Light between worlds. And one close to him might have answers. At any rate, we couldn’t risk Ialai or the Sons of Honor recovering these secrets

Book 5 prologue can't come fast enough! He really was looking for immortality!

20) Restares, finally! Erk-! In the Honorspren capital! What! So that's why Shallan will take the mission to go to the Honorspren!

21) Shallan the Radiant or Shallan the Worldhopper? I have to say I never even contemplated the possibility of losing one of the 10 main flashback characters to be lost to anything but death

 

Hurk! My brain! This storming chapter!

[Toaster Retribution]

1 minute ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

I don't want Sebarial to be a Ghostblood, since he's the most prominent example of a non-standard Alethi male we see in the books.

Fair enough, even though I´d argue that Renarin would be the most prominent non-standard Alethi. I just think that there are a LOT of things pointing toward Sebarial being a Ghostblood at the moment.

[Friendshipspren]

Just now, Toaster Retribution said:

One thing that points toward the Ghostbloods having a more sinister purpose than taking the monopoly on the energy market in the Cosmere is their name. If your goal is to develop a popular brand on multiple planets and make a rust-ton of money, you dont name yourselves "The Ghostbloods".

Why not ? Commerce and economic gain is how near all world powers from the Venetians and Ottomans to the Portuguese , Spanish,  Dutch and English to the USA and China have used to wield global power. 

The east india company conquered all of the Indian subcontinent using it. 

Why shouldn't the Ghostbloods ? 

[Toaster Retribution]

Just now, PrinceGenocide said:

Why not ? Commerce and economic gain is how near all world powers from the Venetians and Ottomans to the Portuguese , Spanish,  Dutch and English to the USA and China have used to wield global power. 

The east india company conquered all of the Indian subcontinent using it. 

Why shouldn't the Ghostbloods ? 

Oh, no, they should. I just mean that "Ghosbloods" as a name sounds rather shady, and if I were to establish a business, I would want it to be called something less suspicious. They should call themselves "The Happy Unicorn Corporation".

[Mage of Lirigon]

7 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Fair enough, even though I´d argue that Renarin would be the most prominent non-standard Alethi.

Renarin wants to be a standard Alethi very much, in terms of wanting to follow in Dalinar and Adolin's footsteps as warriors. Sebarial doesn't fit in, and he owns that and makes no bones about it.

Quote

I just think that there are a LOT of things pointing toward Sebarial being a Ghostblood at the moment.

I wouldn't be surprised if it happens, I just don't want it to, not least because it would be really predictable. The lone merchant in the culture of warriors being a traitor...

Edited September 29, 2020 by Mage of Lirigon

[Innovation]

9 minutes ago, lightweaver spy said:

I still think the real treasure here is getting Radiants off-world. The stormlight will be useful, and certainly very profitable, but the knowledge of how to get a full Radiant with powers intact to somewhere like Scadrial - or beyond - is invaluable 

Hoid knows how to do it, so it certainly isn’t impossible. 

[+honorblades]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

15) "I already have" *shivers* Hey Brando! Weren't we supposed to wait till era 4 for things like this to happen!

This one .... it’s so good. November can’t come soon enough, we need more info!!!

[+robardin]

31 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

One thing that points toward the Ghostbloods having a more sinister purpose than taking the monopoly on the energy market in the Cosmere is their name. If your goal is to develop a popular brand on multiple planets and make a rust-ton of money, you dont name yourselves "The Ghostbloods".

Oh it's not about money. It's about Investiture that is cheap and easy to obtain, if only it could be transported.

"It’s about power, obviously. ...Portable, easily contained, renewable. You hold the energy of a storm in your hand, Veil. That raw energy, plucked from the heart of the raging tempest. It is tamed - not only a safe source of light, but of power that those with... particular interests and abilities can access.

...Suffice it to say there are places in Shadesmar where our Stormlight - so easily captured and transported - would be a valuable commodity. ... This gemstone cannot go where it is needed... the one who unlocks the secret would have untold power... The power to change worlds..."

The last bit sounds suspiciously like Ascension. But how would taking Stormlight off of Roshar result in that? Even if you captured all the Investiture dumped by a given highstorm and took it off Roshar, how many highstorms would you need to siphon off that way before you had enough to represent a Shard's worth?

We know that highstorms pre-date the arrival of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar... Are they at some level a kind of ongoing, net-positive "Roshar-Connected Investiture Generator" set up by Adonalsium that has simply kept going all these years after the Shattering?

Edited September 29, 2020 by robardin

[Mage of Lirigon]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

Oh it's not about money. It's about Investiture that is cheap and easy to obtain, if only it could be transported.

"It’s about power, obviously. ...Portable, easily contained, renewable. You hold the energy of a storm in your hand, Veil. That raw energy, plucked from the heart of the raging tempest. It is tamed - not only a safe source of light, but of power that those with... particular interests and abilities can access.

...Suffice it to say there are places in Shadesmar where our Stormlight - so easily captured and transported - would be a valuable commodity. ... This gemstone cannot go where it is needed... the one who unlocks the secret would have untold power... The power to change worlds..."

The last bit sounds suspiciously like Ascension. But how would taking Stormlight off of Roshar result in that? Even if you captured all the Investiture dumped by a given highstorm and took it off Roshar, how many highstorms would you need to siphon off that way before you had enough to represent a Shards' worth?

We know that highstorms pre-date the arrival of Honor and Cultivation to Roshar... Are they at some level a kind of ongoing, net-positive "Roshar-Connected Investiture Generator" set up by Adolansium that has simply kept going all these years after the Shattering?

Recall Ruin. Imagine what some other Shards in situations like that might do with a steady supply of unconnected investiture...

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

I wonder how taking Stormlight to Nalthis or Scadrial would be valuable. I guess it's basically an arbitrage play, because Stormlight is cheap on Roshar (it literally rains from the sky on a regular basis), and the GBs already have a way to convert it to something locally useful?

Which gets them money.  So far so good.  However given how knowledgeable and connected their organization is they could get "more wealth then any man can spend" quite easily.  There has to be something more.

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

Or... another hidden identity of Shallan's, haha. The "Formless" that Shallan thinks is suppressed but is actually Doing Stuff without "Shallan" knowing.

I have personally rejected the idea.  Even considering it now.  Veil states Formless is "unreal" and her very name implies that she does not in fact have a fully realized identity yet.  Also how could Shallan find formless

Quote

an… aid in times of need

Formless has no experience or skills Shallan does not nor as far as an opponent is concerned is there really a difference.

13 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Sounds like Restares is the source of the Honorspren not bonding anymore people. He ran to and sought asylum in Lasting Integrity. Sounds like something Kalak would do, run and hide. Also, he is the Willshaper Herald and this is the Willshaper (Venli) book. 

Gavilar new who Kelek was.  I think it is implied by the way he talks about his "friend" that they are different people.

[Friendshipspren]

4 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Oh, no, they should. I just mean that "Ghosbloods" as a name sounds rather shady, and if I were to establish a business, I would want it to be called something less suspicious. They should call themselves "The Happy Unicorn Corporation".

Eh not really . We are just used to such names. I mean Amazon for example , not really all that fluffy a name if u think of it. 

 

[Mage of Lirigon]

3 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Eh not really . We are just used to such names. I mean Amazon for example , not really all that fluffy a name if u think of it. 

Amazon is the name of a forest, river or mythological warriors. Ghostbloods is a gang name.

Edited September 29, 2020 by Mage of Lirigon

[+robardin]

2 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Recall Ruin. Imagine what some other Shards in situations like that might do with a steady supply of unconnected investiture...

Well he did specify or qualify with the phrase "in Shadesmar". I don't think the GB's intent is to overstuff a Shard to become a Supershard, if that were possible to do with Stormlight; if it were, why didn't Honor and Cultivation "bulk up" before Odium's arrival and then beat him down with it?

Maybe Thaidakar is resident in Silverlight?

 

2 hours ago, Mage of Lirigon said:

Amazon is the name of a forest, river or mythological warriors. Ghostbloods is a gang name.

Yeah, and you don't demonstrate allegiance to a conglomerate consortium by getting a tattoo.

Well, except for Amazon.

I may have said too mu--

[Shardsplinter]

Even if we cannot understand exactly all the uses Stormlight could have on other planets, there is no arguing that there is no other way probably on the whole Cosmere to obtain that much Investiture almost freely. In an Universe where everything is made up of matter, energy and investiture this would be the Earth-equivalent of monopoly over a clean affortable energy source.

I remember a WoB saying that as technology advances on the Cosmere there'll be more artefacts (like the Southern medallions) capable of replicating any kind of "power" and that in time all of this artifacts would come to be know as fabrials. I think this was a hint at the fact that fabrials, spren and Stormlight are eventually getting off-world and the consequences of a eassier way to gain Investiture will impact places like Scadrial or Nalthis greatly. It makes sense that the Ghostblood would want in on that. Whoever achieves this first will not only be very rich, but also extremely powerful. After all, holding an exclusive and important commercial route has been one of the most commun ways of having dominion over other nations throughout Earth history.