Disappointment in Era 2 - Spoilers for Mistborn Era 2

[E-Harmony]

Disclaimer: I have not yet read Eleventh Metal or Secret History, I will be reading them tomorrow.

I am feeling disappointed in the way Era 2 has gone so far. I was so optimistic after the Alloy of Law. It was a nice, fast-paced intro to the new generation, and while it didn't have the most grand or epic plot, it was okay, it was the first novel in the series, no biggie.

Then Shadows of Self was a little bit of a mess in my opinion, and while it had its moments of course, I thought it was way too busy and convoluted. Despite a good ending, with really nice emotional consequences it seemed for Wax, I didn't like that book very much. But, hey it was Book 2, that just happens sometimes.

On to the Bands of Mourning. Started out nice, although Wax' trama wasn't as pronounced as I would have thought. Steris became one of my favorite characters in the series all the way through the party scene and then promptly did... pretty much nothing the rest of the book. Wayne became a caricature of himself this whole book and I really didn't like him this time. To me he is a very sincere character who puts on an act to cover up his pain and pureness of heart, like 70% sincere and 30% goofy. In this book he was maybe 30% sincere and 70% buffoon. Ugh.

Then the stakes just felt really shallow. This person's dead! Nope just kidding, now this person's dead, gotcha! They're fine. *insert Oprah* You can heal, you can heal, everybody can heal!!!

Sigh.

Maybe my expectations were just too high. After the first and even the end of the second book I thought we were really going to explore some darker themes and have some real stakes. I feel like I just watched Avenger's Endgame or Rise of Skywalker. Let's go chase a macguffin and dont worry no one you like is gonna be in any real danger.

I'm ranting, I just want y'all to know I have a lot of positive things I like about Era 2 as well, but the second half of BoM left a sour taste in my mouth. Here's hoping Secret History helps.

Any discussion is welcome, I would love to work through these feelings with y'all!

[Honorless]

Yeah, era 2 feels very low stakes if you jump over straight from era 1. I couldn't even complete Alloy of Law when I first started it! But now era 2 books are the ones that I've reread the most.

Secret History is awesome, don't worry!

[OmniBident]

I also had really high expectations coming from just rereading Era 1 before reading Era 2, and could barely finish alloy of law. It took me quite a while after before I could get around to reading the next one. I feel if you go into them not straight off other Brandon works or go in knowing what to expect it might be fine, but Era 2 can definatly be a bit of a shock first time because of how different the stakes are.

[E-Harmony]

35 minutes ago, OmniBident said:

I also had really high expectations coming from just rereading Era 1 before reading Era 2, and could barely finish alloy of law. It took me quite a while after before I could get around to reading the next one. I feel if you go into them not straight off other Brandon works or go in knowing what to expect it might be fine, but Era 2 can definatly be a bit of a shock first time because of how different the stakes are.

Isn’t Mistborn supposed to be the throughline series to the Cosmere as a whole? If so it just seems like a little bit of an odd choice to have such a tone shift 

[OmniBident]

3 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

Isn’t Mistborn supposed to be the throughline series to the Cosmere as a whole? If so it just seems like a little bit of an odd choice to have such a tone shift 

Well, era 2 was a sper of the moment thing for Brandon, not originally planned, so it makes a bit more sense, have to see in era 3 if they keep that sort of shift or go back to more era 1. 

[ftl]

Yeah, the first book of Era 2 (Alloy of Law) was supposed to be a standalone side project.

Then it turned into a series of 4 books, because Brandon.

 

I think it's pretty typical for people to recommend treating Era 2 as a separate series - people who come in expecting "Like Era 1, more of the same, let's see where this goes next" are the ones who end up disappointed, but the people who treat it as "separate story that's set on the same planet"  (no more similar than Elantris and The Emperor's Soul) end up thinking it's great.

 

[LanceBOON]

That’s funny, I just finished Bands of Mourning today myself and I have to say I was very pleasantly surprised with era 2. I understand people’s complaints of it but I didn’t mind it at all and thought the stakes were actually pretty damnation high lol. For me I liked them in chronological order from least to most favorite. I definitely think Wayne was the most annoying in the third book and Steris did kinda just sit there a lot in the end, but the tense moments and twists at the end really made it for me. I started really getting attached to the characters by the second book. I also went in with low expectations off of what I’ve heard so I think that is why I ended up enjoying it so much. I still like era 1 better probably, but I also can’t wait for book 4 and era 3! 

Edited September 28, 2020 by LanceBOON
Spelling

[Gisaku75]

I agree era 2 was a big disappointment. I liked AoL but the two sequels were so disappointing that I also re-evaluated the first book in negative. The setting is banal, a copy of pre-industrial England with a hint of the old west. And the development of Metallic art was really disappointing.

[Use the Falchion]

11 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Started out nice, although Wax' trama wasn't as pronounced as I would have thought.

Because Wax tried giving up once before, at the beginning of The Alloy of Law, but he couldn't do it. So this time he isn't "giving up" per se, but he's not going to play by Harmony's rules. And he's clearly still having problems. He can't shoot like he used to, he avoids everything that Harmony gives, and it ultimately culminates in him yelling at God. I mean, you really can't get more pronounced anger than having the opportunity to yell at your deity and taking it. At the end of the book, Wax still has issues - his sister is alive and out there when he'd rather her just dead, he still has problems with Harmony and himself, and he still hasn't solved any of the main questions surrounding The Set. 

 

11 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Steris became one of my favorite characters in the series all the way through the party scene and then promptly did... pretty much nothing the rest of the book.

Because after the party scene the book was mostly action, and Steris is pretty much useless with action. But she DID help Alik and his people escape and prevented a global war. So while her contributions may not have been as...overt, she was FAR from useless in the back half. 

 

11 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Wayne became a caricature of himself this whole book and I really didn't like him this time. To me he is a very sincere character who puts on an act to cover up his pain and pureness of heart, like 70% sincere and 30% goofy. In this book he was maybe 30% sincere and 70% buffoon. Ugh.

YMMV here. I never saw Wayne as someone who was 70% sincere. Or rather, I never saw Wax as someone who was 70% serious. Wax is always sincere, and this book didn't really change that, but he's still a silly goofball at heart and he's always been that way. Yes, Wayne's best moments were when he's serious, but he's rarely that way, and the rarity of those moments add to the specialness of them. Wayne isn't covering up some "major internal trauma" because he really only has two traumas and deals with them in pretty mature ways. In a lot of ways, We've already seen Wayne's growth too. His books were AoL and SoS (which he shared with Marasi). To me, Wayne was always silly. His entrance is literally him barging into Wax's house, "trading" his stuff, and then acting like his uncle. But silly doesn't mean there isn't anything there. Yes, treating a bar like a church is silly, but look at how he uses it to defuse tension. Yes, his drinking of a dead woman's scotch is irreverent, but then he also uses it to analyze her personality. Neither of those things means that he can't have a belching contest with a Kandra and earn her respect either. Over the course of the series, you see that as much as Wax understands Wayne, Wayne doesn't always understand Wax.

Do I wish we'd see a more mature Wayne? Absolutely! But Wayne's moments in this book were really good: he manipulates a ferryman who'd cheat him out of money to get a ride for free, surprises Ranette and finally gets over her, hooks up with MeLaan (in which they explore the dynamics of a pretty gender-fluid relationship on both sides), saves Marasi's life in a firefight, acts like IRONEYES (which was both awesome and hilarious), solves the mystery of the Bands of Mourning separate from Marasi and Wax, and ultimately pushes down his own trauma to use a gun. Those are BIG things for Wayne. The only real silly thing is that he was making out during the train heist. But that's one bad moment out of a whole book of amazing ones. 

 

11 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Then the stakes just felt really shallow.

I guess you mean the stakes of life, in which I understand. But the stakes for Scadrial and the implications for the Cosmere where higher than nearly any book previously. In this book, we discover: Southern Scadrians do exist, and they have technology far beyond what Northern Scadrians have (flight, radio, advanced metallic art tech/fabrials, and BOMBS), we discover that Kelsier actually lived (which was hinted at as far back as Hero of Ages), we discover that The Set have Kandra on their side, and lastly we discover that The Bands of Mourning exist. These are Big Things. 

 

11 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

I feel like I just watched Avenger's Endgame or Rise of Skywalker. Let's go chase a macguffin and dont worry no one you like is gonna be in any real danger.

As someone who unabashedly loves Endgame and absolutely hates TROS, I'm offended by this statement! I do understand where you're coming from, but Endgame was absolutely not like your paraphrased explanation - not in terms of motivation (character vs story) or in terms of danger factor. In-world, Endgame was very much motivated about what was lost. In-world, TROS was motivated about stopping a threat that somehow came back.

By the end of Endgame: 

Spoiler

Captain America and Hulk are out of commission, Black Widow and Iron Man are dead, and characters like Ant-Man have to face the fact that their children grew up (again) without them. 

Compared to The Bands of Mourning, there are two different motivations for the journey. The first is Wax trying to find his sister. The second is Marasi trying to find the Bands of Mourning. They intersect and ultimately combine, but those are two wholly different ideals. 

Lastly, TROS was about "getting the Sith Dagger to find get a Wayfinder to find Exogul" while BoM was really just "find Telsin and The Bands before my Uncle gets them." The adventure is a winding road because The Set keeps trying to distract Wax and the crew (and because they're split up to do their separate quests). TROS has Rey and the crew find allies who help out randomly because the plot needs to move forward. Endgame and BoM do not have this. (Rather, Endgame has this in the first act while TROS has this in every act. BoM has this with Alik a tad, but ultimately it's more of an "enemy of my enemy" situation.)  

 

11 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

It was a nice, fast-paced intro to the new generation, and while it didn't have the most grand or epic plot, it was okay, it was the first novel in the series, no biggie.

I guess this is the ultimate crux of the issue. You want a grand, epic plot and assumed it'd build up to that. This series doesn't have that. You're not the first to express these feelings, so don't feel isolated by them despite the reactions you get on here and on Reddit. But at the same time, why can't Mistborn be a smaller-stakes series at times? Going bigger and bigger only leads to problems with serial escalation. Look at Dragon Ball Z, Naruto, and dozens of other shows and book series. And we're going to get larger stakes with Era 4, so enjoy the journey. Sometimes keeping the themes and story quick and tight is a nice contrast. Lastly, just because the story is small doesn't mean that the implications are small. As mentioned above, the Southern Scadrial's technology level is frightening and frankly above nearly everything we've seen in the Cosmere up to this point. The Bands of Mourning can turn a nobody into a monster, with the only question being how long you want that power to last. 

 

[Raphaborn]

No doubt I'm reading something unique, someone who loves AoL and didn't like SoS and BoM.

[Aspiring Writer]

Ok, time to answer some of the crap on this thread, because again, I have no life. Hope you're all willing to read.

12 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Then Shadows of Self was a little bit of a mess in my opinion, and while it had its moments, of course, I thought it was way too busy and convoluted. Despite a good ending, with really nice emotional consequences it seemed for Wax, I didn't like that book very much. But, hey it was Book 2, that just happens sometimes.

 

I get what you mean by convoluted, but it makes sense and is s sound plan on Bleeder's part, trying to tear the city apart because of her insane "We must leave Harmony!" motive. Definitely one of the better crazy characters to come out in recent media with a nice plan of 

Spoiler

Being the Mayor to create tension and strife in the city, as well as a disguise that would put her in the protection of everyone trying to find her.

 

12 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

On to the Bands of Mourning. Started out nice, although Wax' trama wasn't as pronounced as I would have thought. Steris became one of my favorite characters in the series all the way through the party scene and then promptly did... pretty much nothing the rest of the book. Wayne became a caricature of himself this whole book and I really didn't like him this time. To me, he is a very sincere character who puts on an act to cover up his pain and pureness of heart, like 70% sincere and 30% goofy. In this book, he was maybe 30% sincere and 70% buffoon. Ugh.

 

Wax still certainly has issues, though I'll admit that it is a jarring change from his state at the end of SoS, it does fit. For Steris, by 'does nothing' you mean doesn't fight, you really don't get Steris role. She is not combative, she is more contemplative, planning things and talking things out. As for Wayne... I know people who have a similar opinion that he was ruined because they felt he was more sincere and that he just didn't show it. I always saw him as somewhat of an Idiot with his outlandish logic, so I didn't feel that way. That's all I can say for Wayne. Oh, and WAYNE AND MILAN FOR LIFE. That ship is glorious.

 

13 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Then the stakes just felt really shallow. This person's dead! Nope just kidding, now this person's dead, gotcha! They're fine. *insert Oprah* You can heal, you can heal, everybody can heal!!!

Sigh.

... Sigh. I will admit, the scene where Wax revives himself was not good. It felt like a cheap way to do it. As for the other deaths/heal, Wayne's new goldmind makes perfect since how he survived so much, and Suit being blown certainly shows he low Suit was on the command chain, and we already have Sequence to take up our attention, so he would've been redundant.

12 hours ago, OmniBident said:

I also had really high expectations coming from just rereading Era 1 before reading Era 2, and could barely finish alloy of law. It took me quite a while after before I could get around to reading the next one. I feel if you go into them not straight off other Brandon works or go in knowing what to expect it might be fine, but Era 2 can definatly be a bit of a shock first time because of how different the stakes are.

It's a much less harsh time, the world itself isn't in danger (yet), it's more of a side story to the whole series, so yes, the stakes are different. What were you expecting, a copy? The series has its own feel, which includes different stakes. It might take a slight shift in mindset if you have certain expectations, but it should not take away from the story.

8 hours ago, Gisaku75 said:

I agree era 2 was a big disappointment. I liked AoL but the two sequels were so disappointing that I also re-evaluated the first book in negative. The setting is banal, a copy of pre-industrial England with a hint of the old west. And the development of Metallic art was really disappointing.

Oh, no you storming didn't. *Inhales* First off, copy of pre-industrial England with a hint of the old west? It is similar to a time period and culture? That is a bad thing? Scadrial culture often mimics are own, having many parallels, which is interesting to think about how human society would be if you clicked a reset button and what similarities there would be. Also, there are many differences in this era regarding Allomancy and events from the previous series that make an impact and how society values certain metals and skills, as well as laws on how Allomancy can be used (Ex. Emotional Allomancy can't be used for certain commercial practices.) And again, WHAT DO YOU MEAN IT COPIED AN ERA?

And oh,  do not touch the development of the metallic arts. This series has done a lot to advance how Feruchemy and Allomancy now work, from the dilution of power, to the interbreeding and twinborn, to unkeyed metalminds and the Bands of Morning that can be used very interestingly in both Scadrial setting and the entire Cosmere! (I am waiting for a black market on traits like healing or strength, that will be storming AWESOME.) The new metals are... strange (Time manipulation is always going to be odd to implement) but are used nicely in combat situations. And the new uses for Aluminium shows a progression of technology and experimentation for ways to combat Allomancy (Aluminum alloy for bullets and using aluminum lining in hats to block emotional Allomancy), so by disappointing you mean world and even universe changing, then yeah, I guess it's disappointing.

 

Give this series some credit. Just because it's not the Mistborn 2, the copy in another era doesn't make it bad. If anything, I would advocate for the opposite. Oh, and I didn't even mention Harmonium and the southern Scadrails or- no, just read the damnation books again. they're great. Not perfect, but great.

[+robardin]

I'd agree that a direct segue into Mistborn Era 2 fresh from finishing (and loving) the Era 1 trilogy is a mistake - it greatly ruined my initial enjoyment of Alloy of Law.

Letting time go by and and reading other stuff in between and then going back to re-read it improved it greatly. Consciously or not, I kept wishing for or looking for info on where the original crew ended up, of which are there a few hints as an easter egg kind of thing, but not the central point of the story.

Yes, the way the Metallic Arts play out and interact are very different now. It's going to get even more different in Era 3 - the medallion technology we see in BoM is surely going to have a major impact, when those who needed it to make up for their lack of Metalborn hook up with a land relatively rich in Metalborn.

Because there are no more Mistborn or even Full Feruchemists, there is a certain "awesome factor" that is now lacking except for the moments when Marasi or Wax wielded the Bands "to surpass even the Ascendant Warrior" in power level and become, for a while, another Lord Ruler...

But that is OK. The time of gods among men is passed, and it's time for people to make the most of what they have left. It's what Harmony wants. And how cool is it that he still sounds like Sazed when talking to Wax?

I get where you're coming from with Wayne beginning to come off as "a caricature of himself" at times - I alternate between loving and hating Wayne as a character (fun to read, but with a heavy dose of oh come on now). I actually think he comes off as much more fleshed-out (i.e., seems like a real person) in BoM, maybe because we see more of him independent of Wax.

 

[OmniBident]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

It's a much less harsh time, the world itself isn't in danger (yet), it's more of a side story to the whole series, so yes, the stakes are different. What were you expecting, a copy? The series has its own feel, which includes different stakes. It might take a slight shift in mindset if you have certain expectations, but it should not take away from the story. 

I agree and now quite like era 2, and don't think the shift takes away from the story, which is its own thing from era 1 which is great. I am very glad era 2 isn't a copy of era 1. However, that being said, it can pull someone away initially. It was for me at least so different it just took some getting used to. I think this is a lot less of an issue now than when it was written as we have a lot more cosmere stories with similar stakes so there is more context, when Alloy came out there weren't the large amount of novellas that have similar stakes to era 2 started with. I definatly don't blame the writing or era 2 at all for anything, they are great books, some flaws like art, but still great books, all I blame were my own past expectations. 

Also, I did, even on my first read, love the worldbuilding of era 2, so it still had that going for it.

[Aspiring Writer]

16 minutes ago, OmniBident said:

I agree and now quite like era 2, and don't think the shift takes away from the story, which is its own thing from era 1 which is great. I am very glad era 2 isn't a copy of era 1. However, that being said, it can pull someone away initially. It was for me at least so different it just took some getting used to. I think this is a lot less of an issue now than when it was written as we have a lot more cosmere stories with similar stakes so there is more context, when Alloy came out there weren't the large amount of novellas that have similar stakes to era 2 started with. I definatly don't blame the writing or era 2 at all for anything, they are great books, some flaws like art, but still great books, all I blame were my own past expectations. 

Also, I did, even on my first read, love the worldbuilding of era 2, so it still had that going for it.

I agree it's an odd shift if you're expecting a tone similar to the first series, I just needed to make it clear that is less the books fault and more the reader's fault, as the two shouldn't be compared to each other to determine the quality of writing. One does not have to be like the other. I'm glad you agree with my assessment. 

And just because I'm curious, I'm going to cuss a bit to see what they forum changes to. Please don't be insulted and just laugh. storm, rust, chull, damnation, crap, Dumbass, storming, slontze, and i ran out. Time to see what they turn into. XD

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Era 2 is probably my favorite setting so far, and Wax is one of my favorite characters Cosmere wide. Imagine standing next to your god, looking down at the world and saying "Why wont you help them?". Then god looks at you and says "I did help them, I sent them you". The fortitude it would require to shoulder that burden is unimaginable.

[Knight of Iron]

On my opinion, I understand and actually experienced feelings similar to this. I've overcome it since then. It's also important to keep in mind and (do i even need to say correct me if I'm wrong? people will anyway) I'm pretty sure Alloy of Law was more of an introduction to the next three books then part of it, if that makes sense at all. Could be wrong.

[E-Harmony]

20 hours ago, ftl said:

Yeah, the first book of Era 2 (Alloy of Law) was supposed to be a standalone side project.

Then it turned into a series of 4 books, because Brandon.

 

I think it's pretty typical for people to recommend treating Era 2 as a separate series - people who come in expecting "Like Era 1, more of the same, let's see where this goes next" are the ones who end up disappointed, but the people who treat it as "separate story that's set on the same planet"  (no more similar than Elantris and The Emperor's Soul) end up thinking it's great.

 

Yeah I think that’s a good way to look at it. I thought Alloy of Law had the best feel of these books. It felt more like a progression of the original series. The next two just got kind of goofy in my opinion.

[E-Harmony]

11 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Because Wax tried giving up once before, at the beginning of The Alloy of Law, but he couldn't do it. So this time he isn't "giving up" per se, but he's not going to play by Harmony's rules. And he's clearly still having problems. He can't shoot like he used to, he avoids everything that Harmony gives, and it ultimately culminates in him yelling at God. I mean, you really can't get more pronounced anger than having the opportunity to yell at your deity and taking it. At the end of the book, Wax still has issues - his sister is alive and out there when he'd rather her just dead, he still has problems with Harmony and himself, and he still hasn't solved any of the main questions surrounding The Set. 

Yeah in discussions before about some of the things I don’t like as much about Brandon’s character work, people have explained how it all makes sense. And I actually can 100% see what you’re saying about Wax makes sense. I think as a reader I personally use feel more than I use logic when it comes to characters and I think it fell flat. I didn’t feel that Wax had enough trauma/PTSD what have you, as he should have from where we left him in SoS. I know time had passed, and yes some time is given to discussing it, but it wasnt enough, it just wasn’t.

 

11 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

YMMV here. I never saw Wayne as someone who was 70% sincere. Or rather, I never saw Wax as someone who was 70% serious. Wax is always sincere, and this book didn't really change that, but he's still a silly goofball at heart and he's always been that way. Yes, Wayne's best moments were when he's serious, but he's rarely that way, and the rarity of those moments add to the specialness of them. Wayne isn't covering up some "major internal trauma" because he really only has two traumas and deals with them in pretty mature ways. In a lot of ways, We've already seen Wayne's growth too. His books were AoL and SoS (which he shared with Marasi). To me, Wayne was always silly. His entrance is literally him barging into Wax's house, "trading" his stuff, and then acting like his uncle. But silly doesn't mean there isn't anything there. Yes, treating a bar like a church is silly, but look at how he uses it to defuse tension. Yes, his drinking of a dead woman's scotch is irreverent, but then he also uses it to analyze her personality. Neither of those things means that he can't have a belching contest with a Kandra and earn her respect either. Over the course of the series, you see that as much as Wax understands Wayne, Wayne doesn't always understand Wax.

Do I wish we'd see a more mature Wayne? Absolutely! But Wayne's moments in this book were really good: he manipulates a ferryman who'd cheat him out of money to get a ride for free, surprises Ranette and finally gets over her, hooks up with MeLaan (in which they explore the dynamics of a pretty gender-fluid relationship on both sides), saves Marasi's life in a firefight, acts like IRONEYES (which was both awesome and hilarious), solves the mystery of the Bands of Mourning separate from Marasi and Wax, and ultimately pushes down his own trauma to use a gun. Those are BIG things for Wayne. The only real silly thing is that he was making out during the train heist. But that's one bad moment out of a whole book of amazing ones. 

Wayne in this book more than any other reminded me of the dumb version of Watson from the old Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone, i just don’t like him being that obnoxiously silly. And MeLaan... I like her, but also the Kandra were this mythical, alien culture in HoA and then... we get her doing shtick. In fact everyone here is doing shtick and that’s my main issue. We can say there are stakes, and we can say the characters motivations are in line and make perfect sense. But when there’s this much silliness, this much shtick, and characters are able to quickly reason through their problems that would leave anyone else in shambles, it just doesn’t feel right. It kind of feels like fanfic.

 

[E-Harmony]

6 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Era 2 is probably my favorite setting so far, and Wax is one of my favorite characters Cosmere wide. Imagine standing next to your god, looking down at the world and saying "Why wont you help them?". Then god looks at you and says "I did help them, I sent them you". The fortitude it would require to shoulder that burden is unimaginable.

Yeah I don’t want anyone to mistake me, I enjoyed Era 2, its characters, and it had some really special moments. I just think most of those special moments (not all) were undercut by either lowering stakes, or goofiness.

[E-Harmony]

2 hours ago, Knight of Iron said:

On my opinion, I understand and actually experienced feelings similar to this. I've overcome it since then. It's also important to keep in mind and (do i even need to say correct me if I'm wrong? people will anyway) I'm pretty sure Alloy of Law was more of an introduction to the next three books then part of it, if that makes sense at all. Could be wrong.

Yeah I think I just need to readjust my expectations for this Era. It felt like the PG version of Mistborn, for Saturday Morning Cartoons. I wanted something darker and more heavy. This had the goods to be really weighty and impactful and instead it was just fun. Which isn’t a bad thing but it isn’t necessarily what I wanted, and definitely not what I expected

[ftl]

Yeah, it's *definitely* not weighty at all compared to Era 1. Era 1 - immortal Lord Ruler, skaa being raped and murdered, heroes have to succeed at the rebellion or die trying, eventually fighting against a literal god of Ruin for the survival of humanity itself. There's scenes where the characters are horribly depressed and finding the strength to keep going even as the world is collapsing around them.

Era 2 has none of that. The world is fine. The characters have challenges and are sad and happy at different times. You never get scenes like when Sazed is ripping up the last of his religions, or when he sends off Elend and Vin off to the north so that they can at least survive when everyone in the city is slaughtered - you get Wax being a bit nervous when going to his wedding and then a water tower falling on his church because Wayne sabotaged it. There's the occasional heavy moment in a climax - when Wax has to kill Bleeder/Lessie, when Wax (briefly) dies - but they're definitely the exception.

It is not at all dark, not at all heavy, definitely fun.

[Use the Falchion]

56 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

I didn’t feel that Wax had enough trauma/PTSD what have you, as he should have from where we left him in SoS. I know time had passed, and yes some time is given to discussing it, but it wasnt enough, it just wasn’t.

I disagree because to Wax it wasn't the first time working through this exact issue. He had already killed Lessie once, so the shock wasn't losing her, it was that God lied to him. That's what his main rebellion was against. And remember that he didn't even agree to go anywhere near this mission until his sister came into the picture. Heck, Brandon wrote in a Reddit post (about lifting Thor's hammer of all things!) that Wax resents being Harmony's agent, even still. So I would say that Wax's issues aren't fully resolved. 

 

57 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

And MeLaan... I like her, but also the Kandra were this mythical, alien culture in HoA and then... we get her doing shtick. In fact everyone here is doing shtick and that’s my main issue.

I totally get this, and honestly felt much of the same originally. It felt weird at first, but then we get glimpses of what MeLaan can be like when she snaps at Marasi in SoS, and it's fine.

Looking back, it actually fits in very well with Sanderson's characterization. Brandon likes taking characters and making them outliers within their own culture to explore that culture. Elend is a decent human being for a noble; Sazed is a rebellious Terrisperson (as is Wax); Kaladin is a surgeon who's great at soldiering. Lift is an inelegant and vulgar Knight of the "most graceful" order, and Rock is a man built for war and leadership, but loves nothing more than peace and to serve others (both with food and with wisdom). Likewise, MeLaan, being a Kandra, is expected both in-universe and by fans to be someone other than she is. And she surprises us all by being who she is - down to earth, amicable, and in many ways more human than Wax. But there's this eeriness to her that pervades everything. 

And frankly, I love the comedic nature of these books at times. It gives the world a certain vibrancy that the first trilogy (along with many of the Early Sanderson works) was really lacking. Wax may not feel as real as Vin, but Marasi and Steris certainly do. Wayne isn't as contemplative as Sazed is, but the moment Wayne picked up the gun was just as impactful to me as Sazed putting his bracers back on. Because it meant that both of them were willing to push past a fear or loss in order to try to regain something. 

 

59 minutes ago, E-Harmony said:

This had the goods to be really weighty and impactful and instead it was just fun. Which isn’t a bad thing but it isn’t necessarily what I wanted, and definitely not what I expected

As much as I sympathize with this opinion (and I really do...Iron Man 3, TROS, and so many other movies and books) it really grinds my gears when people say that "XYZ is bad because it didn't meet expectations I put upon it myself). Your reasons outside of the expectations are very valid, true, and shared by a vast amount of people; but to blame something for not being dark and brooding when it never promised it would be is another issue entirely and should be treated as such. This isn't unique to you or this series however, and it's something even I have to work on. So please don't take this part personally. 

[E-Harmony]

2 minutes ago, Use the Falchion said:

I disagree because to Wax it wasn't the first time working through this exact issue. He had already killed Lessie once, so the shock wasn't losing her, it was that God lied to him. That's what his main rebellion was against. And remember that he didn't even agree to go anywhere near this mission until his sister came into the picture. Heck, Brandon wrote in a Reddit post (about lifting Thor's hammer of all things!) that Wax resents being Harmony's agent, even still. So I would say that Wax's issues aren't fully resolved. 

 

I totally get this, and honestly felt much of the same originally. It felt weird at first, but then we get glimpses of what MeLaan can be like when she snaps at Marasi in SoS, and it's fine.

Looking back, it actually fits in very well with Sanderson's characterization. Brandon likes taking characters and making them outliers within their own culture to explore that culture. Elend is a decent human being for a noble; Sazed is a rebellious Terrisperson (as is Wax); Kaladin is a surgeon who's great at soldiering. Lift is an inelegant and vulgar Knight of the "most graceful" order, and Rock is a man built for war and leadership, but loves nothing more than peace and to serve others (both with food and with wisdom). Likewise, MeLaan, being a Kandra, is expected both in-universe and by fans to be someone other than she is. And she surprises us all by being who she is - down to earth, amicable, and in many ways more human than Wax. But there's this eeriness to her that pervades everything. 

And frankly, I love the comedic nature of these books at times. It gives the world a certain vibrancy that the first trilogy (along with many of the Early Sanderson works) was really lacking. Wax may not feel as real as Vin, but Marasi and Steris certainly do. Wayne isn't as contemplative as Sazed is, but the moment Wayne picked up the gun was just as impactful to me as Sazed putting his bracers back on. Because it meant that both of them were willing to push past a fear or loss in order to try to regain something. 

 

As much as I sympathize with this opinion (and I really do...Iron Man 3, TROS, and so many other movies and books) it really grinds my gears when people say that "XYZ is bad because it didn't meet expectations I put upon it myself). Your reasons outside of the expectations are very valid, true, and shared by a vast amount of people; but to blame something for not being dark and brooding when it never promised it would be is another issue entirely and should be treated as such. This isn't unique to you or this series however, and it's something even I have to work on. So please don't take this part personally. 

Hey I don’t take anything personally, this is all the kind of conversation I want/needed!! 
 

I think you’re right that Sanderson likes juxtaposition as a tool in his characterization, for my personal taste in this series it’s played for comedy a little too much.

I agree, the moment with Wayne picking up the shotgun gave me chills, him thinking Wax was dead and how he reacted... that’s one of those moments that made reading them worth it

[E-Harmony]

1 hour ago, ftl said:

Yeah, it's *definitely* not weighty at all compared to Era 1. Era 1 - immortal Lord Ruler, skaa being raped and murdered, heroes have to succeed at the rebellion or die trying, eventually fighting against a literal god of Ruin for the survival of humanity itself. There's scenes where the characters are horribly depressed and finding the strength to keep going even as the world is collapsing around them.

Era 2 has none of that. The world is fine. The characters have challenges and are sad and happy at different times. You never get scenes like when Sazed is ripping up the last of his religions, or when he sends off Elend and Vin off to the north so that they can at least survive when everyone in the city is slaughtered - you get Wax being a bit nervous when going to his wedding and then a water tower falling on his church because Wayne sabotaged it. There's the occasional heavy moment in a climax - when Wax has to kill Bleeder/Lessie, when Wax (briefly) dies - but they're definitely the exception.

It is not at all dark, not at all heavy, definitely fun.

I think you just summed up my feelings much more articulately than I did lol

[Kingsdaughter613]

7 hours ago, E-Harmony said:

Yeah in discussions before about some of the things I don’t like as much about Brandon’s character work, people have explained how it all makes sense. And I actually can 100% see what you’re saying about Wax makes sense. I think as a reader I personally use feel more than I use logic when it comes to characters and I think it fell flat. I didn’t feel that Wax had enough trauma/PTSD what have you, as he should have from where we left him in SoS. I know time had passed, and yes some time is given to discussing it, but it wasnt enough, it just wasn’t.

 

Wayne in this book more than any other reminded me of the dumb version of Watson from the old Sherlock Holmes with Basil Rathbone, i just don’t like him being that obnoxiously silly. And MeLaan... I like her, but also the Kandra were this mythical, alien culture in HoA and then... we get her doing shtick. In fact everyone here is doing shtick and that’s my main issue. We can say there are stakes, and we can say the characters motivations are in line and make perfect sense. But when there’s this much silliness, this much shtick, and characters are able to quickly reason through their problems that would leave anyone else in shambles, it just doesn’t feel right. It kind of feels like fanfic.

 

Usually this comes up in arguments on Stormlight, but it fits here too today, so... My maternal grandfather went through a hell that makes what Kaladin goes through look like child’s play. And he came out kind, compassionate, warm, joyous and unbroken. Not everyone who goes through trauma ends up with PTSD. Many come out with no or mild trauma. This is NOT unrealistic.
 

There is an annoying tendency today to assume that every mildly traumatic incident will result in long term traumatic damage. Considering some studies indicate that that expectation actually makes developing that kind of damage likely, and you can see the problem.

Also PTSD refers to a very specific set of symptoms. Please stop misusing it. When people do that the APA changes the terminology, which is annoying. College is hard enough without having to remember more than one name for the same condition.