THEORY: Is Atium pure fortune rather than Investiture? (Are ShardBlades and Plate resistant to Allomancy, and are godmetals invested)

[Aspiring Writer]

Well, here I am again. Really hope this isn't annoying for any of you. So, I was looking around to see if anyone asked if an Allomacer can push or pull a Shardblade, and of course, I could not find a thread, and the Coppermind doesn't mention it as far as I'm aware. So I was about to assume that they can't be pulled or pushed similarly to metalminds. They have a hard time pushing or pulling something that's invested, and surly the blades count, being god metals of Honor, Cultivation, or a mixture of both. Then, I remembered that Atium is a god metal and there are plenty of examples of them being pulled or pushed. So it doesn't seem like being a god metal immediately disqualifies from being able to be pulled or pushed. So would Allomancers be able to push on Shardblades? And a little bonus question I thought while typing this, are god metals considered invested? Because the reason metalminds are hard to push is because of the investiture stored in them, and Atium does not appear to be resistant to pulls or pushes. So are god metals not technically invested?

 

EDIT: Okay, so the answer for the above questions by Brandon Sanderson himself is no, it's very difficult to push or pull god metals and they are basically pure Investure (read threads below). HOWEVER, this brought up a different question/theory about the nature of Atium, which is a God metal that can be pushed and pulled with relative ease, which contradicts what Bradon Sanderson said about Godmetals. My first reaction was that it was made fairly early on and Brandon Sanderson didn't have certain things figured out, so we should ignore Atium/ consider it an outlier when figuring out the properties of god metals. But then I remembered that Atium was Brandon Sanderson's way of introducing Fortune to the Cosmere, and that in the Feruchemy table, Investure and Fortune are considered separate, so rather than being pure Investure, is Atium pure Fortune and that's why it's properties don't follow with other god metals? 

(Another note, if it is Fortune, it may have been a purposeful play by Preservation to limit Ruin's foresight, which may be a big factor in his plan, as Ruin's foresight has been accepted as not as good as other Shards like Cultivation, Preservation, and maybe Endowment.)

Edited September 27, 2020 by Aspiring Writer
Thread was moved and Title became less accurate

[+Bzhydack]

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Questioner

Could you use steel or iron to Push or Pull off Shardblades or Shardplate?

Brandon Sanderson

Anything that's Invested resists, the more Invested it is the more it resists.

Questioner

Okay, so you could technically--

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

--if it was not charged?

Brandon Sanderson

Well-- Certain objects just have more Investiture and are more purely of the Investiture. A Shardblade's going to be really hard, but it's possible, it's just going to be really, really hard. Even more hard than an absolutely full Feruchemical metalmind because the Shardblade is being created directly out of the Investiture, it's basically all Investiture, it's not a metal that is Invested. It's going to be real hard.

 

[Gilphon]

The question of Godmetals being invested is a weird definitional question. Like they are solid investiture. Is water hydrated? Is soil dirty?

[+Bzhydack]

14 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

The question of Godmetals being invested is a weird definitional question. Like they are solid investiture. Is water hydrated? Is soil dirty?

Not so wierd.

Because Atium is Godmetal and can be also additionaly Invested - as Hemalurgic Spike or Metalmind.

But now when I think about it, I see that Atium is somwat wierd, we know that Lerasium Investiture will interfer, if someone will use it as Spike. Easiest explanation is that Atium is less Invested than Tanavastium or Lerasium (but we have WoB that it is not true. Or Brando change his mind).

[Aspiring Writer]

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Not so wierd.

Because Atium is Godmetal and can be also additionaly Invested - as Hemalurgic Spike or Metalmind.

But now when I think about it, I see that Atium is somwat wierd, we know that Lerasium Investiture will interfer, if someone will use it as Spike. Easiest explanation is that Atium is less Invested than Tanavastium or Lerasium (but we have WoB that it is not true. Or Brando change his mind).

So, we should ignore Atium when trying to figure out the properties of god metals? I guess all god metals can have different properties, but the fact their all pure investiture seems like the one thing they would have in common and should make them impossible to push or pull, yet it's an important plot point that you can because that's how Kelsier destroys the Pits of Hathsin. 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So, we should ignore Atium when trying to figure out the properties of god metals? I guess all god metals can have different properties, but the fact their all pure investiture seems like the one thing they would have in common and should make them impossible to push or pull, yet it's an important plot point that you can because that's how Kelsier destroys the Pits of Hathsin. 

You have to remember that Mistborn was written back before the Cosmere was fully flushed out so there are some things that wouldn't be there if it was written now.

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Frustration said:

You have to remember that Mistborn was written back before the Cosmere was fully flushed out so there are some things that wouldn't be there if it was written now.

I'm aware of that, but that doesn't change that it is canon, which is why I'm asking whether or not we should ignore Atium when figuring out the properties of god metals.

[Frustration]

Just now, Aspiring Writer said:

I'm aware of that, but that doesn't change that it is canon, which is why I'm asking whether or not we should ignore Atium when figuring out the properties of god metals.

...... hold on

alright I have a coin,

Heads: yes we count Atium

Tails no we don't

*flips*

Tails

So yes ignore Atium.

[Aspiring Writer]

Just now, Frustration said:

...... hold on

alright I have a coin,

Heads: yes we count Atium

Tails no we don't

*flips*

Tails

So yes ignore Atium.

XD Wow, sass much man? Could've just said no, though I admit this was funnier. 

 

Also, WAIT! Theory time. Okay, so I remember reading that Atium was Brandon Sanderson's way of first introducing Fortune to the Cosmere, and I remembered that in the Feruchemy table, Fortune and Investure are separate entities. So, is Atium, rather than pure Investiture like other god metals, pure Fortune?

[Frustration]

5 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

XD Wow, sass much man? Could've just said no, though I admit this was funnier. 

(I actually flipped a coin)

6 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Also, WAIT! Theory time. Okay, so I remember reading that Atium was Brandon Sanderson's way of first introducing Fortune to the Cosmere, and I remembered that in the Feruchemy table, Fortune and Investure are separate entities. So, is Atium, rather than pure Investiture like other god metals, pure Fortune?

Hold up....... that could be true.

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, Frustration said:

(I actually flipped a coin)

Hold up....... that could be true.

Okay, first, i was actually going to ask whether or not you did flip a coin and stopped thinking, he wouldn't, that's a stupid question. Glad to see I'm wrong.

Also, Making a new thread about this, because this has massive implications! And actually has a chance of being good/correct!

 

Edit: Wait, my thread was moved. Was that you?

Edited September 27, 2020 by Aspiring Writer
Saw Thread was moved

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Okay, first, i was actually going to ask whether or not you did flip a coin and stopped thinking, he wouldn't, that's a stupid question. Glad to see I'm wrong.

I'm just that kind of guy

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Also, Making a new thread about this, because this has massive implications! And actually has a chance of being good/correct!

Very intresting implications as well

4 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Edit: Wait, my thread was moved. Was that you?

Well that depends

I'm not a mod so I can't move threads,

but I put the report in the brought the mod

so, yes but no.

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Frustration said:

I'm just that kind of guy

Very intresting implications as well

Well that depends

I'm not a mod so I can't move threads,

but I put the report in the brought the mod

so, yes but no.

Okay, but the title isn't quite as accurate now and I don't know how to change it or if you can. Do you know-how, should I start a new thread with the title "Theory- Is Atium Pure Fortune?" or just leave it as is? 

[Frustration]

3 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

Okay, but the title isn't quite as accurate now and I don't know how to change it or if you can. Do you know-how, should I start a new thread with the title "Theory- Is Atium Pure Fortune?" or just leave it as is? 

There is an edit button at the bottom of your first post on the topic, the original post, click that and you can edit the tittle.

[Honorless]

Brandon's described the Cosmere as being made up of matter, energy and Investiture, which is a third thing that the real world doesn't have. He's said that, though do note that it's still not canonized, the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms are made of Investiture. So I think that Connection, Fortune and Identity are made of Investiture. For Identity or sDNA, he's already described it as "decomposing" and melding back with the Investiture of the Spiritual Realm, so it stands to reason that the same might stand true for Connection & Fortune.

[Fezzik]

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314/#e8929

[+robardin]

35 minutes ago, Fezzik said:

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/314/#e8929

Right, so there's the IRL "writerly" answer - "...because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow... Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together."

But of course in the specific case of atium and it being something that can be Pushed or Pulled with Allomancy, you could also construct an in-world reason linked to it having been fudged into the "Allomantic Table" by Preservation. So perhaps once the power of Preservation is (re)configured to be able to make Mistings of that metal, it becomes linked in a way that is affected by Allomancy? *shrug*

[Aspiring Writer]

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Right, so there's the IRL "writerly" answer - "...because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow... Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together."

But of course in the specific case of atium and it being something that can be Pushed or Pulled with Allomancy, you could also construct an in-world reason linked to it having been fudged into the "Allomantic Table" by Preservation. So perhaps once the power of Preservation is (re)configured to be able to make Mistings of that metal, it becomes linked in a way that is affected by Allomancy? *shrug*

I'm aware of the IRL answer. I'm just trying to find an in-universe answer that makes sense because just saying it was something he made early on is somewhat dissatisfying and doesn't mean he/we can't come up with an explanation. 

 

2 hours ago, Honorless said:

Brandon's described the Cosmere as being made up of matter, energy and Investiture, which is a third thing that the real world doesn't have. He's said that, though do note that it's still not canonized, the Spiritual and Cognitive Realms are made of Investiture. So I think that Connection, Fortune and Identity are made of Investiture. For Identity or sDNA, he's already described it as "decomposing" and melding back with the Investiture of the Spiritual Realm, so it stands to reason that the same might stand true for Connection & Fortune.

So, I see two explanations for this. On the feruchemy table, the two are separate entities that can be stored. So either Fortune and Investure are two different yet in some ways similar things from the spiritual realm, or Fortune is another kind of investiture and like different types of matter, has very different properties from the pure form of matter/investiture. 

[Eternal Khol]

On 9/27/2020 at 7:19 AM, Honorless said:

So I think that Connection, Fortune and Identity are made of Investiture

They arent made of investiture, they more of a force that attracts investitures

This is specifically about Connection, but I imagine that Fortune and Identity are similar
 

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

Edited September 29, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Honorless]

Ah, what is gravity composed of? Depends on whether you ask someone who leans towards General Relativity or Quantum Mechanics. Ripple in the fabric of space-time or force carriers called Gravitons... the Theory of Everything, I wonder which direction Brandon leans towards.

[Aspiring Writer]

3 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

They arent made of investiture, they more of a force that attracts investitures

This is specifically about Connection, but I imagine that Fortune and Identity are similar
 

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

I see your point, and I will say it does make me question the theory, but Connection and Identity have to do with one's spirit web, so I don't think that they can be compared with Fortune and how it can work. I still think it's possible that it can serve as an explanation for the unique properties of Atium compared to other god metals.

[Eternal Khol]

2 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

I see your point, and I will say it does make me question the theory, but Connection and Identity have to do with one's spirit web, so I don't think that they can be compared with Fortune and how it can work. I still think it's possible that it can serve as an explanation for the unique properties of Atium compared to other god metals.

Brandon has said fortune is involved in future sight if im reading this WoB correctly.

and seeing the future always involves spiritwebs

So Fortune should involve  spiritwebs

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

Edited September 29, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Aspiring Writer]

37 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Brandon has said fortune is involved in future sight if im reading this WoB correctly.

and seeing the future always involves spiritwebs

So Fortune should involve  spiritwebs

Questioner

So, in Allomancy, most of the metals are in pairs, they're equal and opposite, pushing and pulling, Rioting, Soothing, that kind of thing. The god metals have always-- lerasium and atium, have always struck me as kind of unbalanced in a way. Like, lerasium gives you the power to use all these metals, plus atium being one of them. Is there a reason for that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, and it kinda has to do with Snapping and some of the fundamental rules of the Mistborn world and the fact that people have Preservation and Ruin inside of them and all these sorts of things. So, the answer is yes.

Partially, narratively, I built that in partially just 'cause I wanted atium to seem odd in the placement, right, when people got to it it's like "What? Why is this one-- This one doesn't match the others. This doesn't really work." When I was building Mistborn, one of the big things I wanted was this idea of a periodic table that was, kind of a flawed construct, that, as you read the books, you came to understand better and better. And that was something I executed-- I don't think I executed that 100% right, but I'm pleased with the general concept and how it plays out. And so I wanted atium to stick out like a sore thumb.

The other thing is, I knew I needed some good foreshadowing for Fortune, for people being able to kinda see the future or versions of the future, for the whole cosmere to work. And, so, I built in atium specifically to do those things. And I built in lerasium to have, kind of, the ultimate sort of benevolent endowment sort of thing. (Not Endowment the Shard, you know what I mean.) But I also wanted to show these two magics were intrinsically tied together on Scadrial because the way that humankind was created. We're getting into some deep stuff, I'll just leave it there. But that was what was going through my mind as I was building those things all out. 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)

Yes, Atium was supposed to foreshadow Fortune, which is why I think Atium could be made up of mostly Fortune rather than Investiture, but there is nothing on Fortune that says it uses one's spirit web. Check the Coppermind on Spiritweb and Fortune. The only thing that is in common with the two is that they are both in the Spiritual Realm. That is how you access fortune. So no, you don't use your spiritweb to access Fortune, the two aren't related.

[Eternal Khol]

18 minutes ago, Aspiring Writer said:

So no, you don't use your spiritweb to access Fortune

Thats not at all what im saying XD

 

what im saying is

To tap fortune you dont need spiritwebs, but once that Fortune is being used, it probably involves probability and spiritwebs(like how “seeing the future” in the cosmere works)

Edited September 30, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Aspiring Writer]

1 minute ago, Eternal Khol said:

Thats not at all what im saying.

”oh to get good luck, you need to tap your spiritweb” XD
 

Fortune or “luck” is kinda like seeing the future and knowing where your needed. Doing that involves know where and when other people/things are gonna be and showing up at the right time.And that involves spiritwebs o

im not saying the two are mutually exclusive, but it does Involve spiritwebs

To tap fortune you dont need spiritwebs, but once that Fortune is being used, yes it involves probability and spiritwebs

Again, no, there is nothing to say the two need one another. First off, I'm aware Fortune lets you see into the future, that's why I said this in my first post. 

 

On 9/26/2020 at 0:12 AM, Aspiring Writer said:

Another note, if it is Fortune, it may have been a purposeful play by Preservation to limit Ruin's foresight,

I'm aware Fortune has to do with foresight. However, probability has nothing to do with the Spiritweb. The Spiritweb consists of Identity and Connection. There is no reference to Fortune having anything to do with the Spiritweb in any way. And If there is, show me. Cuz I've read the Coppermind several times. It's not there.