Kaladins and leshwi’s relationship moving forward

[Valigus]

Ok so as the tag says I’m not talking about shipping them though that’s probably what this will become.
 

I’m just wandering  how their relationship will progress, it’s very clear that they have developed a mutually respectful relationship despite being enemies. I feel like Sanderson did a very good job of making it seem like they had some kind of strong relationship and spent a few chapters on it.

Plus we know that leshwi is fascinated by kaladin for some reason presumably because he managed to reforge an entire order of the knights radiant with no guidance and is the first time leshwi has seen a leader of a radiant order that isn’t a herald.

but now kaladin is off combat duty so they presumably won’t interact much or at all, but we had multiple chapters building up their relationship so why and what will come of it later down the road.

[Karger]

I may as well quote myself here.

On 9/15/2020 at 8:46 PM, Karger said:

I mean shippers aside I do think that Leshwi has a degree of personal interest(In Kaladin).  It is almost certainly not an accident that this chapter(chap 11) mentions the fused call themselves "the branded ones" more or less.  Remind you of anyone?

[Valigus]

That makes sense but why, do we have any idea as to why?, because the only other person we have who she has taken a similar interest in is moash/vyre who is obviously kaladins foil, is she almost like the middle point halfway between both, that’s worrying because it means kaladin doesn’t have to go far to fall.

[Subvisual Haze]

She has first hand experience that Moash is an exceptional warrior.  It makes sense that she'd be interested in the person who trained Moash.

[Valigus]

30 minutes ago, Subvisual Haze said:

She has first hand experience that Moash is an exceptional warrior.  It makes sense that she'd be interested in the person who trained Moash.

That makes sense but I think personally it has more to do with the fact that kaladin managed to reforge a radiant order with no guidance, it’s even mentioned in the chapter we get with her and venli. This especially makes sense considering it’s likely that she has never seen someone leading or refounding a radiant order that wasn’t a herald, leshwi has probably known and fought a fair percentage of every windrunner to ever exist and likely has never met an individual like kaladin since u you’ll then it’s been the heralds o think personally that’s why.

[the_archduke]

Or Leshwi could be completely playing Kaladin to get him to let down his guard so she can kill him.  She is a 4000+ year old undead, body-snatching monstrosity, who is currently in a malen body.  The idea of shipping her with Kaladin... disgusting.

Edited September 25, 2020 by the_archduke

[+Bliev]

16 minutes ago, the_archduke said:

Or Leshwi could be completely playing Kaladin to get him to let down his guard so she can kill him.  She is a 4000+ year old undead, body-snatching monstrosity, who is currently in a malen body.  The idea of shipping her with Kaladin... disgusting.

I thought at first that it was a ruse (see some of my earlier chapter reactions), but after chapter 11, I'm not so sure. She doesn't seem attached to him in any way, and I don't ship Kal with anyone bc the poor boi needs to live a bit, but I do think she's genuinely fascinated by him. I think this is the first time she's fought without having the hated Heralds as her nemeses, and a human that actually embodies what Honor *should* be, has struck her interest. 

(Importantly, I also want to say that I think particularly associating her in a malen body as a reason to be disgusted by the ship to be unnecessary. You can make the argument that she is a monstrosity fighting for Odium, which makes her a "disgusting" match to Kal, but the type of body she has seems irrelevant to that descriptor, and could be interpreted as hurtful for some in our group. IMHO)

[jamskinner]

1 hour ago, Bliev said:

I thought at first that it was a ruse (see some of my earlier chapter reactions), but after chapter 11, I'm not so sure. She doesn't seem attached to him in any way, and I don't ship Kal with anyone bc the poor boi needs to live a bit, but I do think she's genuinely fascinated by him. I think this is the first time she's fought without having the hated Heralds as her nemeses, and a human that actually embodies what Honor *should* be, has struck her interest. 

(Importantly, I also want to say that I think particularly associating her in a malen body as a reason to be disgusted by the ship to be unnecessary. You can make the argument that she is a monstrosity fighting for Odium, which makes her a "disgusting" match to Kal, but the type of body she has seems irrelevant to that descriptor, and could be interpreted as hurtful for some in our group. IMHO)

Wow here you are again trying to tell people how to think. If someone thinks it’s disgusting let them. You can disagree. Quit trying to force people into your views. 

[+Bliev]

20 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

Wow here you are again trying to tell people how to think. If someone thinks it’s disgusting let them. You can disagree. Quit trying to force people into your views. 

With all due respect, I am not telling anyone how to think. I’m asking them to not write, or say, something they may think, because it could be hurtful to some folks who share in our mutual love of the cosmere. My apologies if it comes across as commandeering. I love this space for its inclusiveness, and I don’t want people to feel they are excluded for who they are. That’s all.

[GudThymes]

1 hour ago, jamskinner said:

Wow here you are again trying to tell people how to think. If someone thinks it’s disgusting let them. You can disagree. Quit trying to force people into your views. 

I'm going to jump in here too. @Bliev was not telling the OP of that comment how to think. I agree with Bliev, describing the ship between Kaladin and Leshwi in a malen body as "disgusting" can be very hurtful to people. It's ok for people to have that opinion, I don't agree with it, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. But please, keep that opinion to yourself.

 

With regards to the original post. I think their relationship will evolve by proxy. From the Venli chapter it's fair to say that Leshwi doesn't expect to see Kaladin again (assuming she thinks he's dead). My theory is that we will see the one sided development of their relationship (through Kal) as the Windrunners continue to fight with the Heavenly One's, and Leshwi and her crew will either start being more ruthless or the opposite, will be more and more respectful and less deadly drawing out a stalemate of morality between the two crews.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, jamskinner said:

If someone thinks it’s disgusting let them.

Even if in expressing that view they are doing real harm?  Think what you want.  I can't change anyone's mind unless they are receptive but I do think we all have an obligation to say so when we find someone's speech unacceptable.

[Valigus]

On 9/25/2020 at 3:15 PM, the_archduke said:

Or Leshwi could be completely playing Kaladin to get him to let down his guard so she can kill him.  She is a 4000+ year old undead, body-snatching monstrosity, who is currently in a malen body.  The idea of shipping her with Kaladin... disgusting.

1. I think I made it clear that I don’t want this to turn into a shipping thread
 

2. I think it’s very likely after the chapter we see her with venli that it’s not the case. Shipping yeah i don’t support it generally but she appears legitimately fascinated 

Edited September 27, 2020 by Valigus

[Chaos]

Just FYI, homophobia is not permitted by the Code of Conduct. 

Please feel free to report posts. We have removed some already.

[Honorless]

Guys come on ew no why?! Leshwi is soooooo oooold! This is cradle robbing! Was the sparkly vampire not enough for this world or all those damnation anime?! This is creepy is what it is and I just cannot believe in a healthy relationship with such a screwed dynamic.

Oh wait, it's not a shipping thread? thank god! Wait the ship exists? Where are my cannonballs?!

Edited September 27, 2020 by Honorless

[Chaos]

Let's additionally try and not make this into a shipping thread as the OP clearly has stated multiple times, thanks  

[jamskinner]

6 hours ago, Chaos said:

Just FYI, homophobia is not permitted by the Code of Conduct. 

Please feel free to report posts. We have removed some already.

 

6 hours ago, Chaos said:

Just FYI, homophobia is not permitted by the Code of Conduct. 

Please feel free to report posts. We have removed some already.

I saw no instance of homophobia. Where was that?  I saw someone express there distaste on a certain match of two characters. How is that not allowed?  Is Brandon a homophobe based on religious views?  Come on. 

Edited September 28, 2020 by jamskinner

[Lemiltock]

5 minutes ago, jamskinner said:

 

I saw no instance of homophobia. Where was that?  I saw someone express there distaste on a certain match of two characters. How is that not allowed?  

 

On 26/09/2020 at 5:15 AM, the_archduke said:

Or Leshwi could be completely playing Kaladin to get him to let down his guard so she can kill him.  She is a 4000+ year old undead, body-snatching monstrosity, who is currently in a malen body.  The idea of shipping her with Kaladin... disgusting.

Ive bolded the part that can easily be categorised as homophobic. The original poster may not have indended it but that doesnt change the homophobic nature of the comment.

[Chaos]

This is very off topic. You may PM me if people wish to discuss the matter. People have been PMed and we have left some posts here as there have been several replies. If we hid the original, we would need to hide all the replies. Please forward comments to me via Messenger and no longer in this thread so this can get back on topic.

[Rainier]

On 9/24/2020 at 11:57 AM, Valigus said:

I’m just wandering  how their relationship will progress, it’s very clear that they have developed a mutually respectful relationship despite being enemies. I feel like Sanderson did a very good job of making it seem like they had some kind of strong relationship and spent a few chapters on it.

I think Leshwi is taking over the Amaram role, which was taken from Sadeas. Or, rather, the Sadeas to Kaladin's Dalinar. The grey villain, sympathetic in some ways and abhorrent in others. Leshwi is also the authority figure in another POV, Venli, and so we get to judge from two perspectives. I expect Leshwi to be a major antagonist for Venli, mostly, but we clearly see the interest in the man who refounded the parallel order to the Heavenly Ones. You should love to hate your enemies, but we'll see if we get more from Leshwi to skew sentiment one way or the other. We shouldn't be sympathetic, but skip a year and portray the noble-ish foe, and you can work from there.

[ftl]

Amaram and Sadeas were both pretty straightforwardly hated villains, though. I don't think Sadeas or Amaram were ever morally grey for the readers, though some characters in-world weren't sure of them. They were always just terrible.

Leshwi is taking the place of Eshonai in WoR - the enemy that nevertheless has some redeeming qualities and you wonder if there isn't a way to get them to team up with the good guys. Which didn't work out for Eshonai.

[Shadow Guardian]

I would guess that they might have some kind of parallel, or at least tangentially related arc, albeit, separately, from Kaladin's own point of view, and Leshwi from Venli's point of view.

While I think Kaladin will eventually make his way back to the battlefield and they will likely meet again there, he has a character arc to travel before that, and logistically, I can't think of very many ways for them to more directly interact until that point. Maybe if they were both moving pieces on the chess board as it were, but I think Kaladin and Leshwi have both been battlefield commanders moreso than strategic generals. 

That said, I do think it would be super interesting to see them have a non-violent encounter, where they could have an actual conversation. Someone more creative than me would have to think of the feasible scenario for that though. 

[Valigus]

7 hours ago, Shadow Guardian said:

I would guess that they might have some kind of parallel, or at least tangentially related arc, albeit, separately, from Kaladin's own point of view, and Leshwi from Venli's point of view.

While I think Kaladin will eventually make his way back to the battlefield and they will likely meet again there, he has a character arc to travel before that, and logistically, I can't think of very many ways for them to more directly interact until that point. Maybe if they were both moving pieces on the chess board as it were, but I think Kaladin and Leshwi have both been battlefield commanders moreso than strategic generals. 

That said, I do think it would be super interesting to see them have a non-violent encounter, where they could have an actual conversation. Someone more creative than me would have to think of the feasible scenario for that though. 

I suspect that this is what will happen with leshwi and kaladins fight or kaladins return to the battlefield being the climax of the book or the mid book high point since almsot every Sanderson book I have read has a mid book high point like the mission to Kholinar.

i also suspect their interactions may somehow result in either leshwi dying to kaladin for good or being converted to the good guys. It’s also possible that moash could kill her permanently.

I agree with your thought that they will have parellel related arcs and I think that there may be a scene where they talk one to one but in a situation where neither can get at the other like in a lot of games intro scenes you have the main villain or secondary villain talk at you with a glass wall or cage or something separating them, I suspect a scene like that is how I think a conversation would be facilitated especially because now we have the stormlight draining Fabriels imagine if like leshwi and kaladin are each on one side of a window with one of those fabriels in leshwi’s hand something like that.

[Rainier]

15 hours ago, ftl said:

Amaram and Sadeas were both pretty straightforwardly hated villains, though. I don't think Sadeas or Amaram were ever morally grey for the readers, though some characters in-world weren't sure of them. They were always just terrible.

I want to disagree strongly with this. Amaram, especially, was anything but straightforward. Hated, yes, but not straightforward. He was always closer to Taravangian than anyone else, and it's disappointing he died before we got to see any of the supposed greater good he was working towards. Frankly I think Brandon did him dirty, and failed his story in OB by making him the cartoonish villain Kaladin always saw his as. Big missed opportunity, and you can see some of that discussion in the topics created after OB's release.

Sadeas, too, was always morally grey, right from the prologue chapter where he plays the decoy. Hated, again yes, but morally grey. He embodied Alethi values perfectly, but that doesn't make him evil, that makes him Alethi.

We have seen this pattern before, where Eshonai was the noble foe, and Venli was the dangerous ideologue. Now, Eshonai is dead, Venli has become the noble foe, and we have a new ideologue in the form of Leshwi. Leshwi isn't replacing Eshonai, but rather Venli, from that earlier pattern.

[LadyLameness]

FYI/heads up - a number of posts have been hidden from earlier in this thread as they were off topic, and as they have being repeatedly reported to staff we have decided to hide them as the issue has already been resolved. 

Thank's y'all for continuing on the OP's topic, have good chats. Ta

[+Oltux72]

15 hours ago, Valigus said:

i also suspect their interactions may somehow result in either leshwi dying to kaladin for good or being converted to the good guys.

The good guys? Somebody fighting for the rights of enslaved descendants is bad? The idea that the struggle in SA can be reduced to good and bad looks false to me.

15 hours ago, Valigus said:

It’s also possible that moash could kill her permanently.

Why would they do that if they could just report her up the chain of command and cause Odium to switch her off?

13 hours ago, Rainier said:

We have seen this pattern before, where Eshonai was the noble foe, and Venli was the dangerous ideologue.

I have to point out, again, that Eshonai may have been noble, but she was certainly a failure. Her strategy was getting her people killed and was about to lead them to subjugation or worse.

Venli freed millions from slavery.